The Butler Report

kronas · 14-07-2004, 15:00

the butler report has been released, makes for some interesting reading...

here are the main points of the report surrounding the intelligence that the government recieved...

The 45 minutes claim was "unsubstantiated"
No individuals were to blame for failures
Intelligence had been pushed to the "outer limits but not beyond"
There was no deliberate distortion of intelligence by politicians
Limits of intelligence not "made sufficiently clear" in September 2002 dossier

the basis of the report showed that the government did not attempt to mislead or indeed 'sexup' any aspects of the dossier but relied on the intelligence services namely MI6 to provide as much information as possible using intelligence photographs.

mr butler also mentioned that we did not have 'many of our own sources' on the ground in Iraq and there was a heavy reliance on defectors or intelligence gatherers who mislead intelligence officials of what was happening on the ground.

the JIC which helped assemble the document was also mentioned.

mr butler mentions no one is to blame for the faliures of intelligence as people (namely tony blair) acted in good faith.

report in full:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp..._04_butler.pdf

chapters 1-4

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp..._chaps1to4.pdf

chapters 5-6

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp..._chaps5to6.pdf

conclusions

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp...tler_concs.pdf

annexes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp...butler_ann.pdf

source: BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3890961.stm

**Damien** · 14-07-2004, 15:06

What i thought all along. I have always belived that Blair was wrong but did not lie

altis · 14-07-2004, 15:42

In summary then - we got it completely wrong but no one is to blame.

How typically British.

Graham F · 14-07-2004, 15:43

I really do hope that this will bring to an end all the witch hunts etc, that have been going on around this for the last year!!

kronas · 14-07-2004, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby

I really do hope that this will bring to an end all the witch hunts etc, that have been going on around this for the last year!!

how will it ?

no one is to blame ?

how can someone come to that conclusion ? , if i told you something which is false does that make it no ones fault ?

Graham F · 14-07-2004, 15:55

From what i have read and heard (no i haven't read it all) the failure was due to the lack of information we had abt the state of things in Iraq this led to people making presumtions (typo??!?) abt the WMD ie relying on sources whcih had a vested intrest in Saddam being kicked out.

It is very hard to get reliable info abt a country which is ruled my someone like Saddam, this is why we have such trouble getting info abt North Korea. You have to go with what you have to hand and use it to make intelligent concluesions from. I am glad that no-one is being made a scapegoat of on this.

Kronas why does someone always have to be to blame?!?

kronas · 14-07-2004, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby

Kronas why does someone always have to be to blame?!?

the report says 'clarity' is a problem, when tony blair said 'saddam is a threat to this country i believe he has weapons of mass destruction' when making such a statement i suggest you back that up with factual evidence, not trying to interpret something 'out of nothing' the inspectors could not find anything, neither has anyone else, apart from uranium, empty missile shells, sure he invaded Iran etc the fact is when you invade a country because you believe its a threat to you you should have evidence, clearly, and forcefully, presented to the public.

Graham F · 14-07-2004, 16:11

Politains have to relie on stuff given to them by agencies such as MI6 and have to trust the info in them is as good as it gets so i fail to see how Tony Blair is to blame?!?

kronas · 14-07-2004, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby

Politains have to relie on stuff given to them by agencies such as MI6 and have to trust the info in them is as good as it gets so i fail to see how Tony Blair is to blame?!?

wel he could have gone in to it, he was one of the better people to be in a position to question them, such asking for 'hard evidence' to suggest he had anything, instead he relied on hear say....

**Damien** · 14-07-2004, 16:20

It is not presented as hear say though is it? I dont think he is to blame. I agree with scooby on this one. The point is that if the media keep saying he is a liar then it will stick in peoples minds but there is no proof that he did lie and till then we should see himas innocent.

I like the way we have rights saying innocent until proven gulity and people (on here to) defend this right but it doesnt seem to apply to politicans.

Goverment is based on events and not even the leader can see whats coming

14-07-2004, 16:40

There is an established policy that if an MP misleads the House, either deliberately or with the best intentions, at the very least that politician is expected to issue a frank apology to the House. Playing Devil's Advocate (highly contrary to my personal beliefs), if Blair did use the information as honestly as he could at the time, he still misled the house and there should be an apology. I have seen no evidence of any genuine contrition on the part of Blair.

**Damien** · 14-07-2004, 16:54

If he apologys it would be taken as a admission that he lied not that he got it wrong

14-07-2004, 16:56

Tony Blair stood in the House of Commons and told this country, that Saddam could project Chemical and Biological weapons in 45 minutes. Senior members of the JIC, on Panarama (shown on Sunday night I think) point blank refuted that assertation. They said that at no time did they report Saddam had any such capability.

So if I said '' In 45 minutes I'm gonna come round you're house and crap on you're front garden'', but didnt do it, and had no ability to get from Belfast to where ever you live in 45 minutes. Then I'm a liar. So how in the name of all that is holy, is Tony Blais statement really any different???????

Tony may have honestly believed what he was saying, but the whole time George and Tony where talking war. The Chief UN Inspector (Hans Blicks I believe), was saying '' we cant find any evidence to suggest Iraq has any serious amount of Chemical or Biological weapons''. Did Tony and George give them the time to look further...... NO. George and Tony pushed Saddam into a corner, and he did what they knew he would do. So they got the war they wanted, and in time George will get the oil the American oil companies wanted.

**Damien** · 14-07-2004, 16:59

First of all you use quotes and opinion in that so that is not proof although it sounds right. I dont think he lied and i think he thought he was right

14-07-2004, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

If he apologys it would be taken as a admission that he lied not that he got it wrong

It is the tradition of the House that you apologise no matter how you ended up misleading the house, regardless of whether it was a deliberate deception or an honest mistake. He does not have the option not to apologise in case it is is taken as an admission.