Bowling for Columbine

[Charlie_Bubble]

I think you just have to use your common sense when watching films like this. I haven't watched any of his films, but I've read one of his books. He has his own agendas as do the people he does his work about. In my opinion he does tend to start off with his outcome and then weave some of his evidence to point to this. You can find coincidences everywhere in life if you look closley enough. Some of the things he says are undoubtedly true, but others are just coincidence which he backs up by fitting evidence to back his point up. Watch his films, think for yourself, read a bit more about the subjects and then make up your own opinion.

Originally Posted by SOSAGES

anyway love him hate him he certainly is interesting

One of his other great strengths, like him or loathe him, believe him or think he is a liar, is that he provokes debate on important topics.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Graham

Two sites with a *blatant* Pro-Bush, Republican bias ("Let's make a Ronald Regan dollar coin", "Click here to thank Tony Blair (for his help in Iraq)" etc etc. Not exactly what I would call "impartial comment"

Just because they are run by right-wingers (not pro-Bush or republicans, there is a crucial difference), does it mean what they say is any less true? Of course not. And if you check out moorewatch.com's blog, you'll see he actually criticizes Bush a lot. Don't forget that a big part of what are on those sites are links to articles in papers etc, that other people have done.

Originally Posted by DrWadd

It will be interesting to see what "lies" people claim there are in Farenheigh 9/11, as he has hired a team of independent fact checkers, and has a team of lawyers on stand-by should anyone attempt to defame him. If he is willing to fight his corner in court, that indicates to me a man who is pretty damn confident of his stance.

It would be interesting. moorewatch.com has already starting picking holes in F/911. They all said they won't be persuaded from it, which is nice. I don't think they have much to worry about. Remember the "wacko attackos" bit? Laughable response to genuine errors in his films.

The trouble is with law suits is that he is a really known as Teflon Mike - Nothing sticks. Back in Roger & Me he really evilly screwed over a friend and munipulated him on camera. Moore was sued and WB paid out on his behalf, but it was turned over on appeal.

Originally Posted by DrWadd

Regardless of anything else, in Bowling for Columbine he did get WalMart(?) to stop stocking ammunition, and I can`t see anyone defending the ramblings of Charlton Heston at the end of the film, he was quite offensively racist.

It was K-Mart. Who have since gone out of business I think, or taken over by Target. It wasn't much of a victory though thought, because I think K-Mart were planning it months before, I think.

Originally Posted by RichardM

I thought the bank who offered a free gun as an incentive to open a new account was pretty stupid.

Again, it isn't what he tells you that are lies, it is what doesn't. Like a true magician. To get your "free gun", you have to open up a $5000 savings account (which is locked for something like 20 years). If someone wanted a gun, they could easily go to a guy on the street and pay less than that with no cooling off period or background check. The bank does both. They allow you to pick the gun up from the bank after the checks are complete, but they are licensed to, so what is the problem? Also note, there is a whole catalog of things you can have instead of a gun. Just opening up a $200 CD and getting a blender doesn't sound as good.

Originally Posted by Earl OF Bronze

My friend's father-in-law was in Belfast for a holiday a couple of weeks ago, his first trip outside the US since he was in Vietnam as a US Army Ranger engaged in Operation Pheonix. Peggy's father was kind enough to renew my open invatation to visit then at any time. But I told him that in good consience I would have to decline. I feel it impinges on my human rights, to be treated as a criminal the moment I step of the plane, just because I wish to visit a foreign country. Namely, I REFUSE TO BE FINGERPRINTED FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN BECAUSE I AM NOT AMERICAN

You have it wrong. Only visa holders are subject to the US-VISIT system. Even if you have a visa, I don't think there is anything personally stopping you from travelling under a visa waiver, but he might not be too impressed when he spots your visa and asks why you aren't using it.

This book about him is great (Well, only read the first few chapters so far). It is telling you about his persona and his early days which explains a lot like why he is, who he is. Also just found out, after NBC dropped TV Nation because unsuprisingly it was poo and noone watched it, Fox decided to give it another go. Fancy that. Why have principles when you can have money instead? And then everyone still thought it was poo and noone watched it, so they dropped it.

[TheBlueRaja]

You gotta love the add for his new one Fereinheight 9/11.

Bush:
Trust me im gonna do everything in my power to stamp out terrorism.
(Camera shows him with Driver in his hands turning away towards the fairway).
Now watch this sweet drive.

If only he went on to slice it into the rough.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

It will be interesting to see what "lies" people claim there are in Farenheigh 9/11, as he has hired a team of independent fact checkers, and has a team of lawyers on stand-by should anyone attempt to defame him.

Here you go

[mdean]

Originally Posted by SOSAGES

No-one is disputing that the bank does give away guns - .

and thats ok --- thats normal

The dramatic elements are irrelivant. It is the fact that americans are so stupid they think its ok to give a gun as a reward for opening a bank account.

All the attacks on MM and the other fella (The liying liars and the lies they tell- afair and balanced account) are hogwash

MM has bush and his nazi mates on the run

[punky]

Originally Posted by mdean

and thats ok --- thats normal

The dramatic elements are irrelivant. It is the fact that americans are so stupid they think its ok to give a gun as a reward for opening a bank account.

There was a whole catalog to choose from. Everything from a tire pressure gauge opening a $20 CD, up through and beyond a gun for $5000 CD. Opening a time locked CD to get a gun is just pointless

Originally Posted by mdean

All the attacks on MM and the other fella (The liying liars and the lies they tell- afair and balanced account) are hogwash

One of the things that the anti-Moore sites always says about people who tell them they are wrong is that they never say why or what. Just "you are wrong", never "you are wrong because...". Why are they hogwash?

Originally Posted by mdean

MM has bush and his nazi mates on the run

If there is one good quality about Bush, (there isn't many,granted), is that he really don't a s**t what people thing. I wish I could be so nonchalant about what people say behind my back. I try not to, but it is hard. Bush is the model of it.

And that reminds me of a joke Dennis Miller said before the war, about the protestgers that call Bush, Hitler. He said: "Bush is Hitler. Cheny is Hitler. Rumsfeld is Hitler. The only person who isn't Hitler is the foreign guy with a moustache who wants to eradicate Jews and feed his enemies into the woodchipper." He's a bit too far for me sometimes, but he can be hilarious sometimes too.

Originally Posted by Mimizuku no Lew

Here you go

I`ll consider it to be a proven lie if Moore loses a case in court.

[Richard M]

I watched the rest of it today, not very pleasant - if you don't want to see people getting shot then avoid it!

Originally Posted by punky

Just because they are run by right-wingers (not pro-Bush or republicans, there is a crucial difference),

Sorry, maybe I should have pointed out the offer of "Bush/ Cheney Magnetic Bumper stickers" or maybe the "52 reasons to re-elect George W Bush" playing cards with the text: "Are you tired of the ugly picture Michael Moore paints of President Bush? We were too! Check out the deck of playing cards that most media outlets are afraid to talk about because it paints the TRUE, positive picture of President Bush."

Now if that's *not* pro-Bush, what is?

does it mean what they say is any less true? Of course not.

I never said it *wasn't* true, I said it wasn't *impartial*. There is a crucial difference...!

And if you check out moorewatch.com's blog, you'll see he actually criticizes Bush a lot.

He does? Where? I've just scanned through several pages of their drivel and I can't see any criticism of Bush anywhere.

Don't forget that a big part of what are on those sites are links to articles in papers etc, that other people have done.

So *other* people are putting advert links into their sites? I don't think so...!

Oh, one other thing...

Also note, there is a whole catalog of things you can have instead of a gun. Just opening up a $200 CD and getting a blender doesn't sound as good.

Good point!

So what's the American Blender Murder Rate again...?

[punky]

Originally Posted by Graham

Sorry, maybe I should have pointed out the offer of "Bush/ Cheney Magnetic Bumper stickers" or maybe the "52 reasons to re-elect George W Bush" playing cards with the text: "Are you tired of the ugly picture Michael Moore paints of President Bush? We were too! Check out the deck of playing cards that most media outlets are afraid to talk about because it paints the TRUE, positive picture of President Bush."

Now if that's *not* pro-Bush, what is?

Those are called "Advertisements". People pay him to put what they want, on the site. I'll advertise Tampx tampons on my site if they'd pay me, I don't have to be able to use them, to do that.

Originally Posted by Graham

I never said it *wasn't* true, I said it wasn't *impartial*. There is a crucial difference...!

A side point, but i'm still struggling to find something that Moore says, that makes me think: "You know, thats a good point, well said." Besides Moore has a big enough mouth, with a big enough army of fans preaching his side. There isn't a very big side that debunks his myths. Moore doesn't need anyone else in his corner.

Originally Posted by Graham

He does? Where? I've just scanned through several pages of their drivel and I can't see any criticism of Bush anywhere.

He has just moved to a new server so it is a bit disorganised, but try these (please note some pages have swearing):

http://right-thinking.com/index.php/oops/ (yeah, the URL really does have oops in it, it isn't a 404 page)

and http://right-thinking.com/index.php/weve_got_bush/

So *other* people are putting advert links into their sites? I don't think so...!

They aren't adverts. They are "Hey this guy said something brilliant go read it", rather than just plagurising someone's thoughts.

Originally Posted by Graham

Oh, one other thing...



Good point!

So what's the American Blender Murder Rate again...?

Hmmm. I wonder how many people are going to pay a bank $5000 for a gun and go and shoot someone with it. Don't you think they'd pay half that and go to a gun shop? Or half that again and go to someone on the street and avoid all that "pesky" paperwork? Also note if you wanted to shoot someone, you'd have to wait a month from that bank, (which is a licensed gun retailer, it is no different from a gun shop), however, you can get a gun in 3 days from a gun shop where the guns are kept on site. (The guns aren't kept on site regardless of what that idiot bank clerk says, wether you get a rifle or a blender, it has to be ordered from the suppliers.)

[etccarmageddon]

http://www.moviemistakes.com/film4329

For gods sake the gun in the bank was just highlighting the fact that the usa is obsessed with guns it nothing important moore himself made a bigger deal over the supermarket selling ammo. He is more worried about the ease to buying a gun in the usa and the gun crime figures show hes right

Also those sites punky showed do not link to any clear evidence to back up their claims while moore links to new storys from people like bbc and such

Also the bank giving out blenders is bad they can KILL people, if they where big enough.

Originally Posted by punky

Those are called "Advertisements". People pay him to put what they want, on the site. I'll advertise Tampx tampons on my site if they'd pay me, I don't have to be able to use them, to do that.

Yes but you target adverts to a audience they clearly are a pro bush site if they are being targeted by the bush campain

Why do you think games are advertsied on games sites

Originally Posted by punky

Those are called "Advertisements". People pay him to put what they want, on the site. I'll advertise Tampx tampons on my site if they'd pay me, I don't have to be able to use them, to do that.

So he's going to advertise things that don't fit in with his beliefs? Hmm, so I should take advertising from the Coalition of Decency or the Moral Minority who want to put anti-porn ads on my site...??

Oh, note where it says "Fight Socialism! Visit my Advertisers!"

A side point, but i'm still struggling to find something that Moore says, that makes me think: "You know, thats a good point, well said."

I really can't help you with that. Although given your opinionsof Moore, you're probably very unlikely to give him the benefit of the doubt.

There isn't a very big side that debunks his myths.

And *why* is that, do you think? People aren't interested? People aren't capable? Or maybe despite his tendency to exaggerate in some places, he *does* actually have a point?

He has just moved to a new server so it is a bit disorganised, but try these (please note some pages have swearing):

Great, so he's criticising Bush, but frankly that's like shooting fish in a barrel.

But what he's *actually* saying is "get rid of Bush and get us a more credible Republican leader" and that's a different matter.

As to the gun from the bank thing, the point is that a gun has *NO* constructive use! Guns are for *wounding* and *killing* people, they have no other credible use (target shooting etc is just practicing the skills you need). Blenders *do* have constructive uses.