Why you should dump IE.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by greencreeper

And my point was it won't happen because of this very reason - people are going to take one look at how Firefox displays pages and dump it. Don't forget that most users don't have a clue what CSS is and probably have never heard of W3C. Like I said, if a browser wants to topple IE it needs to be better than IE but still display sites, regardless of what browser they were designed for, correctly.

You appear to be assuming people will always view web pages on PCs or Macs. I am saying this will not necessarily be the case (and, for the record, web pages that require Active X don't work on the Mac even in IE).

[Russ]

Has anyone else tried using Outlook as a browser?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Has anyone else tried using Outlook as a browser?

Outlook uses IE to do it's browsing (within the Outlook interface). As a matter of fact, a lot of Microsoft software (including Outlook) uses IE to render the interface.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by scastle

This is to all those in the "IE is the most used browser, so IE is the standard" camp. What happens when IE stops being the most popular browser?

That is like asking "What if you are immortal?" It isn't going to happen and at best it is a fantasy you can dream about.

Originally Posted by basa

OK maybe I should say, as you rightly point out IE is compliant, but there is code around that works only with IE, but yes it is MS's fault since they actively promote such (Active X & Active scripting) so that many sites will only work with IE based browsers. Such code is outside the standards and as only MS know the code only they can engineer their browser to use it.

And that is GOOD for them and it is GOOD for us because they make their product BETTER. If a competitor can't do that, screw them. I want the easiest and fastest browser with USABLE features.


Sorry, but unless Firefox and other browsers make a serious attempt to be better than IE I simply won't use them or develop for them. By virtue of being the biggest Microsoft sets the standard and no one can do squat about it. Continue to bitch and complain and continue to make your product adhere to the "standard;" if it doesn't work and accept Microsoft standards you're not going to get very far ever.

[Xaccers]

Just look at Nutscrape for example, version 2.02 was fantastic, it showed just how naff IE3 was.
People wouldn't dream of using anything other than Nutscrape, it was the canine's testicles.
To not download Nutscrape was crazy.
Then they went mad and started trying to make it look all pretty and forgot that functionality and speed were the important factors.
IE powered ahead, and not because of Active X or anything else that IE can cope with that other browsers can't, it's because the benifits gleaned from downloading and installing any other browser just are not worth it.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

That is like asking "What if you are immortal?" It isn't going to happen and at best it is a fantasy you can dream about.

I suspect that's exactly the sort of attitude Netscape had before IE became top.

It also shows the complete lack of being prepared for any future events that has hurt many companies (one example Digital Research's refusal to port CP/M to the PC because the "PC has no future", hence IBM having to go to their second choice, Microsoft, to develop an OS).

Anyway, just to make it clear, I think that although PC's and Macs are the main way of accessing the Internet now, I don't think that will be necessarily the case in the future (especially with Internet access being built into an increasing number of consumer electronic devices). It is entirely possible that Microsoft will not convert IE to whatever device is used most to connect to the Internet.

Regarding use of IE, I think, as Xaccers says, that regardless of whether IE is standards compliant or not, people will use it because it is built into their operating systems. Although any one of us probably knows enough to download, install and use another browser, the chances are that Joe Soap (a miscellaneous member of the public) would probably not know these browsers exist. If he/she did, they would probably not know where to download them, and also are not likely to bother to switch unless the browser offers a significant improvement.

[Jerrek]

No, Netscape was arrogant to think they can charge $44.95 for a browser and that a free one bundled with an operating system won't hurt them.

[Chris W]

Part of the rise in popularity of other browsers is due to the fact that many people have broadband (infact i would guess 90% of people who care which browser they use have broadband) so a new browser is easily downloadable. Saying that, on this pc at the moment i have IE6, firefox 0.9, mozilla 1.7, netscape 7.1 and HotJava 3.0.

I use firefox for most things, ie for the sites that i need too and the others just for testing/ playing with.

The main reason MSIE is so popular is that when you install windows on a pc, it is there and ready to use straight away. Most people do not have the time/ inclination/ knowledge to install anything else so they stick with IE6.

However, programs such as MSN explorer on winXP opened people's eyes to the fact that there is actually more than one browser out there. ok so msn explorer is built on IE but is just looks a bit different, but it is still a different product.

The rise in popularity of Linux means that fewer 'standard' (for want of a better word) uses will not be on windows. Three years ago the only people who i knew that used linux would have to be called "ubergeeks", but this situation has changed dramatically now.

A good example of this is India- not a place renouned for IT, but statistics that i was reading (will find the link later) showed that 92% of home users in India have linux not windows, because it is cheaper. If this trend continues, then fewer people will use IE, and more people will install other browsers, which will in turn lead to development of web content that is cross browser compatible.

MB

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Then they went mad and started trying to make it look all pretty and forgot that functionality and speed were the important factors.
.

How can you say they made Nutscrape look pretty? It's never been pretty...

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by scastle

How can you say they made Nutscrape look pretty? It's never been pretty...

I said they were trying to make it look pretty, not that they ever succeeded

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

No, Netscape was arrogant to think they can charge $44.95 for a browser and that a free one bundled with an operating system won't hurt them.

Actually, I am not denying Netscape were stupid (and arrogant), just pointing it that anyone who assumes that they will stay at no.1 forever (as Netscape did) is arrogant. Eventually, at some point, something will come along that will replace IE as the most used browser. It's the way of the world we live in, and in particular, the way of the Internet. Admittedly, I don't see it happening anytime soon, and I don't think it will happen with any of the current browsers either.

[Richard M]

OK stop press:
http://blogs.msdn.com/dmassy/archive...16/157263.aspx
I really hope they do the sensible thing this time.

If they only come up with a shoddy attempt at making a new decent browser, ignoring all the feedback they have on the above link then it'll have the reverse effect of what they wanted and IE will be deserted even more than it will likely be in 2005/2006 or whatver, Mozilla will be the dominant browser by then anyway imo.
But, if they make a good standards compliant browser then it'll be great, because all these people who only know the IE stupid way of making websites will be out of a job and hence more work for those of us who care about compliancy.

[philip.j.fry]

Originally Posted by Richard M

But, if they make a good standards compliant browser then it'll be great, because all these people who only know the IE stupid way of making websites will be out of a job and hence more work for those of us who care about compliancy.

Sounds good, mind you I hate web development so they're welcome to the jobs, leave the programming ones for me*. It'll be great if all browsers are standards compliance because then it won't actually matter what browser people use and the web can work the way it was meant to.

In other news, Mozilla are working with Nokia to produce a browser for their phones, if that goes ahead just think of the impact that will have.

*Cheeky request, if anyone sees any graduate programming jobs going please let me know

[TheShadow]

I'm using Opera at the moment, although it's not a 100% change over from IE since sometimes pages don't load correctly, images appear in places they should not etc.

Other than that though, It's a great alternative.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

IE powered ahead, and not because of Active X

pff! I call it a liability than a feature, spyware, spware, spyware. Using firefox for years and I haven't had a single spyware infection. My sister and 5 mins with IE and toolbar this and clock sync that in my tasklist.