[merged] Price increase

Originally Posted by andygrif

Yes, your figures are spot on, but they do not tell the whole story, as not everyone is interested in how much data they can download, whilst still staying within the AUP, but rather how fast they can browse.

I think someone mentioned the cap does not actually limit you to 30gb per month, but rather asks you not to go above 1gb per day for something like 3 consecutive days in a 14 day period. I think we're all agreed this is rather wooly, and a 30gb per month allowance would be far more sensible, but that's not the issue.

To complete your story, customers also need to take into account the following, which is cost of bandwidth (based on new pricing and bandwidth):

300k = 5.9p per k
750k = 3.3p per k
1.5mb = 2.5p per k

This compares to currently:

150k = 11.9p per k
600k = 4.2p per k
1mb = 3.5p per k

This highlights how much the 150k users were being fleeced, but it also domstrates that the new pricing is better value for money.

Andy, have NTL asked if people want the increase in speed? no they have not.
Like with anything in life, you should be given a choice.
As I said earlier, either a £1 increase across all three speeds, or no increase and things left as they are.
And the bottom line is, 1mb users are still subsidising the lower speeds before the speed increases come in, and what is to say how long it will take NTL to increase the speeds? this week? next week? next month? next year? in the meantime we are frankly being fleeced, which is why I dropped down a tier.

[andygrif]

You do have a choice, there are lots of providers out there, another two on the ntl network in fact that offer different packages and speeds and caps.

Why should there be a £1 increase in all speeds, I don't understand why that is? The most common speeds for most people will be the lower two, and these are where ntl needs to be most competetive - increasing the costs will not help here.

Also, I canot see your logic in saying that the lower tiers are being subsidised by the top tier - the costs above show this is not the case, as they are lower on the 1.5mb tariff than the other two.

I'm guessing that you're a 1mb subscriber - so understand where you're coming from - and I agree that raising the cost just before the announcement about raising the speeds was stupid - they should have raised the speeds first, then the cost - but it's nothing new that ntl's marketeers are not exactly blessed with common sense on some occasions!

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Andy, have NTL asked if people want the increase in speed? no they have not.
Like with anything in life, you should be given a choice.

You are being given the opportunity of having a faster connection so what is the problem. You have no need to take advantage of the faster speeds if you don't want to.

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

As I said earlier, either a £1 increase across all three speeds, or no increase and things left as they are.

This has to be looked at from a marketing viewpoint. If the lower tiers were increased in price it would probably lead to much higher churn rates and fewer new customers, particularly if there was no increase in speed.

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

And the bottom line is, 1mb users are still subsidising the lower speeds before the speed increases come in, and what is to say how long it will take NTL to increase the speeds? this week? next week? next month? next year? in the meantime we are frankly being fleeced, which is why I dropped down a tier.

How do you work out that 1Mb users are subsidising the lower speeds?

[gt94sss2]

Originally Posted by andygrif

You do have a choice, there are lots of providers out there, another two on the ntl network in fact that offer different packages and speeds and caps.

I know about AOL - but else offers Cable Modem services on NTL's network ?
(apart from NTL obviously!)

[andygrif]

I thought Freeserve did, but now I said it - I'm 100%

[Neil]

Originally Posted by andygrif

I thought Freeserve did, but now I said it - I'm 100%

I don't think that deal ever got off the ground Andy.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

I think you missed the point my friend, note the phrase "unlimited use".
My take on the increase to the top tier, is that NTL know that they do not have a legal case to take someone to court for what they call " excessive use " of an unlimited product.
So it is a lot easier to penalise the customers using the fastest connection speed, under the misconception that these customers are the ones causing the main problems with upstreaming.

Why are we moving to metered water then, because unlimited use is not a workable business model.

You expect to turn on a tap and get full pressure (bandwidth) as an when you wish.

You water company will clamp down on you if you leave a tap on 24/7, don't fix a leak on your property or generally act in a manner that would result in significant increase in the water utilisation at your property. NTL will clamp down on you if you downlload 24/4, loan you bandwidth to your neighbours or generally act in a manner that results in significant bandwidth utilisation at your property.

NTL DO NOT CAP. If they did to stick with your analagy, they would stop you surfing, you would turn on a tap and no water would come out until midnight. They have guidance as to acceptable trafic limits and while I can see how you can exceed them some of the time, to do it all of the time is hard work. I would need to find enough stuff to full my HDD every 40 days. Where do i put it then?

When the internet becomes a workable method for video streaming at broadcast quality, VOIP becomes a globally used communication standard etc then the limits will require visiting, but at the moment, the increased speed is likely to give you a less waiting on your internet page loads, are you really going to be able to visit them 50% more quickly? For example, visiting this site, you still need to read the text of the posts. This takes much much longer than it did to download the page.

In fact in the time it has taken to write this post there has been no upstream requests, and the usual random flickering of the downstream light on my CM. Hardly bandwidth eating activity.

As things stand at the moment, pre-increase of speed, 1mb users are subsidising the lower tiers, end of story.

If the two lower tiers are more popular, then why not do away with 1 mb altogether?
It is plain to see that 1mb users are being fleeced, maybe the ones who cannot or will not see this are either, a: NTL employees, or b; People with the sod you jack I am alright outlook on life.
I was on 1 mb broadband, NTL are forcing me to pay an extra £3 per month extra if I wanted to keep that speed, with the mention of an increase in speed at a later day, but that could be next year, and what is to say I want 1.5 mb?
The NTL marketing have made a balls up, but the fault comes from a lot higher up the greed ladder.
I am being given the choice of a faster speed at a cost, ianathuth , people on the other two speeds will eventually have an increase in speed with no increase in cost, now have the balls to tell me that is right?
Forget about, "well the two other tiers are the most popular"
If this is the case, NTL should just have them two tiers, and not be fleecing higher speed users.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Why are we moving to metered water then, because unlimited use is not a workable business model.

You expect to turn on a tap and get full pressure (bandwidth) as an when you wish.

You water company will clamp down on you if you leave a tap on 24/7, don't fix a leak on your property or generally act in a manner that would result in significant increase in the water utilisation at your property. NTL will clamp down on you if you downlload 24/4, loan you bandwidth to your neighbours or generally act in a manner that results in significant bandwidth utilisation at your property.

NTL DO NOT CAP. If they did to stick with your analagy, they would stop you surfing, you would turn on a tap and no water would come out until midnight. They have guidance as to acceptable trafic limits and while I can see how you can exceed them some of the time, to do it all of the time is hard work. I would need to find enough stuff to full my HDD every 40 days. Where do i put it then?

When the internet becomes a workable method for video streaming at broadcast quality, VOIP becomes a globally used communication standard etc then the limits will require visiting, but at the moment, the increased speed is likely to give you a less waiting on your internet page loads, are you really going to be able to visit them 50% more quickly? For example, visiting this site, you still need to read the text of the posts. This takes much much longer than it did to download the page.

In fact in the time it has taken to write this post there has been no upstream requests, and the usual random flickering of the downstream light on my CM. Hardly bandwidth eating activity.

Youre the one who mentioned metered water, not me.
Forget about what is technically possible etc for a moment.
If someone says to me that something is unlimited it means just that, unlimited, you can have what you want, what you can take.
NTL have problems with upstreaming, it is no use blaming a few customers who are taking what they were told they could have, what they are paying for.
It is upto NTL to either admit that they made an error when they said it was unlimited, and give customers the choice to cancel their accounts with a full refund of subs paid, or increase capacity with the money they are getting from their customers instead of the money going to dead wood at NTL and board level.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Youre the one who mentioned metered water, not me.

I did?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...&postcount=544

I can't find the post that I clicked quote on, but I can assure you that you mentioned water first.

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Forget about what is technically possible etc for a moment.
If someone says to me that something is unlimited it means just that, unlimited, you can have what you want, what you can take.
NTL have problems with upstreaming, it is no use blaming a few customers who are taking what they were told they could have, what they are paying for.
It is upto NTL to either admit that they made an error when they said it was unlimited, and give customers the choice to cancel their accounts with a full refund of subs paid, or increase capacity with the money they are getting from their customers instead of the money going to dead wood at NTL and board level.

But it does come down to what is technically possible and what a reasonable person would do.

To stick with YOUR water analagy. If everyone else on your street turned all their taps on so you were left with a trickle coming out of your taps that toook 5 mins to fill a glass you would be on the phone to the water co to fix it. If they turned around and said tough, you and your neighbours are all using all your streets water bandwidth and as we offer unlimited water then you will have to wait 5 mins for your glass to fill.

Anyway, now 750k is coming along the 600k users may find they are hitting the guidance more often. Me, i seem to get into these guidance limit debates, but don't consider my usage patterns would cause concern, even though when performing maintainance on web sites I can be piping a good few Mb up to them. As such it does not cause me to think irrationally, lose sleep or put any monitoring software on my PC.

In the same way, with summer holidays around the corner, those with 3 PCs, a router a 1.5Mb line and kids surfing, chatting, plaing on line games will probably be getting near or over the cap, but that should not worry them, it's the nature of the connection that it will be used more some days than others and it is highly unlikely that NTL will be coming after them.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

As things stand at the moment, pre-increase of speed, 1mb users are subsidising the lower tiers, end of story.

If the two lower tiers are more popular, then why not do away with 1 mb altogether?
It is plain to see that 1mb users are being fleeced, maybe the ones who cannot or will not see this are either, a: NTL employees, or b; People with the sod you jack I am alright outlook on life.
I was on 1 mb broadband, NTL are forcing me to pay an extra £3 per month extra if I wanted to keep that speed

No-one is forcing you to do anything. If it's such a big deal, then drop down to the 750k service, and save yourself £10 a month.

[zovat]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

I did?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...&postcount=544

I can't find the post that I clicked quote on, but I can assure you that you mentioned water first.



But it does come down to what is technically possible and what a reasonable person would do.

To stick with YOUR water analagy. If everyone else on your street turned all their taps on so you were left with a trickle coming out of your taps that toook 5 mins to fill a glass you would be on the phone to the water co to fix it. If they turned around and said tough, you and your neighbours are all using all your streets water bandwidth and as we offer unlimited water then you will have to wait 5 mins for your glass to fill.

Anyway, now 750k is coming along the 600k users may find they are hitting the guidance more often. Me, i seem to get into these guidance limit debates, but don't consider my usage patterns would cause concern, even though when performing maintainance on web sites I can be piping a good few Mb up to them. As such it does not cause me to think irrationally, lose sleep or put any monitoring software on my PC.

In the same way, with summer holidays around the corner, those with 3 PCs, a router a 1.5Mb line and kids surfing, chatting, plaing on line games will probably be getting near or over the cap, but that should not worry them, it's the nature of the connection that it will be used more some days than others and it is highly unlikely that NTL will be coming after them.

Just from a personal point of view - I have the 1M - and I use it for gaming, Email and the occasional upload of files to my own website. I occasionaly download linux distros (when I need to upgrade/test a new version) and often listen to the radio through it when I am working. I also use it for work when I get the oppertunity to work from home, with a vpn connection.

I never have an issue with the cap, but then I never download a full linux distro three or four days on the trot.

I am happy with 1M, but was a bit miffed (well, ok, a LOT miffed ) when NTL decided to put the price up, but decided that I could afford to keep the service at its current level, as the benefit of that speed, and the upload speed when working at home of uploading web pages, was worth more to me than the cost in terms of my time by downgrading.

Now I get told I am to be "automatically uplifted" to 1.5M for no extra cost, so I feel vindicated.
Will I make the best use of the 1.5M - probably not, will I be chuffed when a large and complex page downloads in seconds, or I download a file from the office quicker than my boss does on his 512K ADSL ? damn right, after all, that's what I'm paying for.

Had they said : we are re-aligning the broadband tiers - here are your new options :

300K - 17.99 pcm
750K - 24.99 pcm
1500K - 37.99 pcm

I feel it would have looked better to most, and people would not be having quite such an issue with it. However - this is NTL, and they never do things the easy way.

For my money (of which NTL will be getting a bit more now) it is still a good deal - but had they not uplifted the 1M by 50% I would have been considering going down to the 750K when it was available.

[andygrif]

I think you've got the right attitude to this Zovat...I know it's difficult to separate the two issues (price increase speed increase) but you're spot on.

[Ignition]

Not interested in being involved in this argument but just to point out 1Mbit users in no way subsidise other packages, quite the opposite in fact they are the least profitable of the tiers.

The argument that they subsidise the other tiers is based on all 1Mbit users sticking to 30GB a month - the vast majority don't, some pull 250GB or more. Add that to the extra congestion caused on the upstream path from the 1Mbit users with 256k uploads and it soon becomes clear that they are the least profitable tier, they pay the lowest rate per kbit of the tiers both now and in the future after the price increases etc while downloading markedly more than the other tiers.

maybe the ones who cannot or will not see this are either, a: NTL employees

Well not really, just giving you the facts to be honest, whether you want to believe me and anyone else who tells you this or not is entirely up to you, but the above are the incontrovertible facts.

[Defiant]

I wonder if our friends in europe who have standard 3MB lines moan about people hogging there bandwidth!