School helped secret abortion - Page 7

13-05-2004, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

how can a 14 year old financially and time consumingly provide care for it, you expect the mother to look after it ? excuse me but we all take responsability for our own actions.

so whats going to happen when they find out she is pregnant (whats the huge bump doing there ?) they will wonder ?

and then when they go to the doctors, and the doctor says she's pregnant, whichever way you see it, the reasonable thing to do is notify the parents, at the end of it all, she is 14, she is young, she needs guidence.

the fact is she wanted to keep it, but it ws too late because she talked to counsellors rather then her parents, she should have told them or the authorties should have, and taken it from there.

nice to see the state 'own' you.

Kronas you must be kidding,

Do some research on what was happening in back street abortion clinics pre legalisation. I hope there are pictures too because I am sure you will hurl and be traumatised by the stories. We arent talking surgeons here, we are talking people with the surgical skill of you and I terminating pergnancies and pregnant womens lives through bad practices and what amounts to butchery. All with no aneasthetic.

But hey still because we are liberal I guess that doesnt count.

Seriously though Kronas, please read up on what was happeneing in the 50's and 60's and even further back, it was somehting that can be pushed aside and is probably the ONLY reason abortion was legalised.

kronas · 13-05-2004, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Kronas you must be kidding,

no i dont think this is a 'kidding' matter ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Do some research on what was happening in back street abortion clinics pre legalisation. I hope there are pictures too because I am sure you will hurl and be traumatised by the stories. We arent talking surgeons here, we are talking people with the surgical skill of you and I terminating pergnancies and pregnant womens lives through bad practices and what amounts to butchery. All with no aneasthetic.

stop clinging to the past!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

But hey still because we are liberal I guess that doesnt count.

im sorry this is 2004 and we are talking about an individual case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Seriously though Kronas, please read up on what was happeneing in the 50's and 60's and even further back, it was somehting that can be pushed aside and is probably the ONLY reason abortion was legalised.

that has no bearing on the present situation we are discussing.

whichever way you look at it, i may be young, but i know what i am saying and im sure many others agree that a parent has a right to protect and help there offspring in times of need, i know how niave you can be at 14, it wasent untill i was 15-16 until i started to 'grow up' and change my attitude and prospect on things.

sometimes decisions have to be made, if the need arises with regards to the child wanting to keep the unborn and the parents not wanting it, then something has to give and social services or someone has to step in, she should not be pregnant at that age, hell even having sex that age, im all for freedom but there is a time and place, and im afraid 14 is just too young for this sort of responsability.

you have a duty to protect your children, not encourage acts of unmoralistic mannerisms.......

**Maggy** · 13-05-2004, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Read my post again Kronas, what if theres a conflict of interests? What if the mother of the 14 year old refused permition for her daughter to have an abortion?
Where does that leave the 14 year old? where does that leave the baby when it is born, neglected? brought up with adoptive parents whikst the 14 year old has to live with the trauma of having to give her baby away, that irrespective of whether or not she wants it.

The school made an excellent decision and was forced to do something it should never have been expected to do.
Abortion is not a good thing, but its legal because its safer that way. I couldnt care less about it, its a necessary evil I guess.

My job as a teacher is to educate NOT to interfere in what should be FAMILY decisions .If a young girl comes to me for help it not my job to tell her what to do but to seek help and advice from others to aid the child.One of those who will need to available to help is the child's parent/guardian.Only in the case of EDUCATIONAL matters do I feel I can offer advice and help without reference to the parent/guradian.I NEVER SIGNED ON TO ORGANISE ABORTIONS,JUST tO TEACH.

Incog.

13-05-2004, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

how can a 14 year old financially and time consumingly provide care for it, you expect the mother to look after it ? excuse me but we all take responsability for our own actions.

You`ve missed the point, the argument was if she was forced to keep the child, she would then be in the position you describe above, which she could be if the mother had the right to overrule that choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

so whats going to happen when they find out she is pregnant (whats the huge bump doing there ?) they will wonder ?

Again, missed the point, the argument was that the mother had forced her not to have the abortion and then she had to give up the child. In that instance you wouldn`t need to hide the bumnp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

the fact is she wanted to keep it, but it ws too late because she talked to counsellors rather then her parents, she should have told them or the authorties should have, and taken it from there.

You don`t know that for an absolute fact, she may have been pressured into keeping it by the mother once she found out.

kronas · 13-05-2004, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

You`ve missed the point, the argument was if she was forced to keep the child, she would then be in the position you describe above, which she could be if the mother had the right to overrule that choice.

forced ? who said she would be forced to keep it ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Again, missed the point, the argument was that the mother had forced her not to have the abortion and then she had to give up the child. In that instance you wouldn`t need to hide the bumnp.

again we dont know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

You don`t know that for an absolute fact, she may have been pressured into keeping it by the mother once she found out.

as my reply above we dont know, my replies wre judged on what we do know and the posts made thereafter in quotation.

**Damien** · 13-05-2004, 20:44

I think that children should have a route to turn to other than their parents. She may not have been able to talk to her parents, or have difficulty for some other reasons.

Where would have this girl turned to if the school had to inform her parents? she may not have gone forward which could be more serious. Forcing the schools to tell parents is a bad path which we should not go down, advising them to tell should happen but if they did not want their parents to know that should be respected.

Under 16's have rights to you know

13-05-2004, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

forced ? who said she would be forced to keep it ?

TimeWarrior's original post was about a situation where the mother could overrule the decision of the daughter, ie. force her to keep it.

**Maggy** · 13-05-2004, 20:45

With all due respect to you all that article just didn't give us enough info to know just what the mother would have thought and felt if she had been approached correctly in the matter.We also don't know enough about what choices the health worker also provided the child with so I think we are all pushing our own thoughts and feelings onto the situation.

We are probably getting hot under the collar to no good point.I just hope that in future all professionals in this field will think far enough ahead to really think about the individual child.Abortion,adoption or trying to play parent while getting an education are all choices that need clear and careful thought from ALL concerned in the situation.Whatever choice is to be made it should not be made lightly.I'm thankful it's not one I've had to deal with personally.

Incog.

kronas · 13-05-2004, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

TimeWarrior's original post was about a situation where the mother could overrule the decision of the daughter, ie. force her to keep it.

let me ask you a question what do you think the position of teachers are in school ?

counsellors ?

also would you rather someone else make the decision on your future such as this, it does affect the parents after all as well as the child i would like to remind you in the eyes of the law she is still a child, a parent or guardian must look after her ?

13-05-2004, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

also would you rather someone else make the decision on your future such as this, it does affect the parents after all as well as the child i would like to remind you in the eyes of the law she is still a child, a parent or guardian must look after her ?

But it isn`t the parent`s decision, it is the decision of the girl. If the mother isn`t making the decision and the girl does not want the mother to know then the mother should not be informed. It is nothing to do with "other people" making the decision.

If you are going to argue that in the eyes of the law she is a child, then you are also arguing that she would ultimately have no say in the matter. I hope that isn`t the argument you are trying to put across.

kronas · 13-05-2004, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

But it isn`t the parent`s decision, it is the decision of the girl. If the mother isn`t making the decision and the girl does not want the mother to know then the mother should not be informed. It is nothing to do with "other people" making the decision.

tell me why she should not, ultimately its going to come out shes pregnant, yes she decided to keep it after consultation with her mother but this is where parents provide the nessecary support that councillors can not bring, remember family your own parents are the real support network.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

If you are going to argue that in the eyes of the law she is a child, then you are also arguing that she would ultimately have no say in the matter. I hope that isn`t the argument you are trying to put across.

no im not im just reminding you that parents have the ultimate responsability 'over' the child NOT the school NOT the teachers when it comes to these matters.

Xaccers · 13-05-2004, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

let me ask you a question what do you think the position of teachers are in school ?

counsellors ?

also would you rather someone else make the decision on your future such as this, it does affect the parents after all as well as the child i would like to remind you in the eyes of the law she is still a child, a parent or guardian must look after her ?

From what I've read it was the school health worker that helped the girl, nothing to do with teachers.
You obviously know nothing about abortion clinics, you don't just turn up saying "hey, give me an abortion", you have to convice two doctors that its what you want and that there is sufficiant reason to abort.
These clinics do not take abortions lightly!

And no the parents shouldn't be involved, yes the mother should be encouraged to inform her parents, but confidentiality must be maintained.
There are thousands of 14 year old mothers out there because they had the child rather than tell their parents they were pregnant.

Ramrod · 13-05-2004, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

And no the parents shouldn't be involved, yes the mother should be encouraged to inform her parents, but confidentiality must be maintained.
There are thousands of 14 year old mothers out there because they had the child rather than tell their parents they were pregnant.

I can see where you are coming from but I would sue the balls off anyone who medically interfered with my underage daughter without my consent.

...edit....we can say 'balls'

Xaccers · 13-05-2004, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I can see where you are coming from but I would sue the balls off anyone who medically interfered with my underage daughter without my consent.

...edit....we can say 'balls'

On what legal grounds?

I'd be more concerned that my daughter felt that she couldn't come to me.

kronas · 13-05-2004, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

From what I've read it was the school health worker that helped the girl, nothing to do with teachers.
You obviously know nothing about abortion clinics, you don't just turn up saying "hey, give me an abortion", you have to convice two doctors that its what you want and that there is sufficiant reason to abort.
These clinics do not take abortions lightly!

you think i didnt know that

also i am aware that abortions are not taken lightly, im not a fan of them myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

And no the parents shouldn't be involved, yes the mother should be encouraged to inform her parents, but confidentiality must be maintained.
There are thousands of 14 year old mothers out there because they had the child rather than tell their parents they were pregnant.

i just dont understand, the parents will have to look after the kid while she is getting educated, unless alternatives are sought..........

personally for me i think its too young to have kids, and also i think it will just cause problems, i think when the baby arrives and she wants to go out with her freinds etc the baby will be seen as hinderence, not in all cases but it happens.