ID cards for uk citizens over 16

[kronas]

Originally posted by Martin
Iron Maiden if I'm not mistaken:p

Rev 12:12woe to you o earth and sea for the devil sends the beast with wrath because he knows the time is short

Rev 13:18 let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number. it's number is 666

from me thanks for spoling it

from my freind thank you for the response

[Martin]

Originally posted by kronas
from me thanks for spoling it

from my freind thank you for the response

Sorry matey Second time I have been called a killjoy in one day.:p

Originally posted by Graham
Curiously enough, that's exactly the excuse that David Blunkett used to re-introduce the idea of ID cards after the last attempt to introduce "entitlement cards" fell through.

If you can't get them to agree "for their own good" then try to scare them with the bogeyman...

Oh right so no one is allowed to be concerned about this country, fair enough, let people roam the land unchecked. Just dont complain when nasty things start happening.

And yet, later on, you demand ID cards because of "our right to live in safety", yet as you demonstrate here, those who would infringe on that safety would immediately find ways of circumventing the system!

As they will circumvent ANY kind of security checks if so determined.

I don't drive. I don't have a licence. I don't *need* a licence. I don't *need* to be able to prove my identity to *anyone*.

Unfortunately it is sometimes required to prove your identity.

And what good is having to produce your documents at a Police station within 7 days if you've stolen the car?!

If the car had been stolen. a) the police reg check would indicate this. b) evidence of damage would be evident to the officer who nearly always checks the car over.

[quoteIf we are not on the electoral role it is impossible to obtain credit[/quote]

And how will having an ID Card change that??


Simply because it will be another way of identifying yourself, your address and any other kind of status so needed for credit to be obtained.

The national insurance card scheme failed. So we need a replacement, a card that can act as :- A) a passport B) proof of ID C) a credit card D) a bank card E) a driving licence

No, we do not *NEED* anything of the sort!
That would be YOUR oppinion. But if one scheme has failed surely it is essential to replace it with somehting better?
It may be *convenient* for some (especially the government and big business), however that is nothing like the same thing!
It would be damned comvenient for me, it would save having to carry around several cards that I currently have to carry. And just think of the reduction in plastic that would be dumped in landfills.


The fact that you ask this merely points out that you don't understand the rights you will have and which you risk losing if such a scheme is introduced.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin [/QUOTE]

And just what liberty would we be giving up if we had the introduction of ID cards?
The police can stop and question you now, without you having to have an ID card.
You need a NI number to get any kind of state benefit.
You HAVE to have several valid documents in order to drive a vehicle......ALL at cost to yourself in one way or another.


So then what Human rights are we going to lose? show me some ideas, some evidence?

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
So then what Human rights are we going to lose? show me some ideas, some evidence?

As things stand at the moment, I could go and live on a croft in the north of Scotland, work the land just enough to feed myself, never have a bank account, nor a loan, neither pay NI nor claim a pension, never drive a car on a public road, never travel abroad...

And if I did live that way, I would never need to prove my identity to anyone. The police could come and ask who I am for whatever reason, but I would not be breaking a law simply by having no proof of my ID.

If a compulsory ID card scheme were introduced, the basic human right that I now have to be completely anonymous if I so choose will be gone.

But your not, Your Birth, Marriage and Death are all registered By law.
So with the exception of Marraige (possibly) and Death, you simply are NOT anonymous are you?
You are required by LAW to take part in the census every 10 years. This also gives out certain information.

you understand why I dont think the human rights issue can be given?

I sometimes think of it from an exxtreme angle.
those people that complain about somehting as small and convenient as an ID card going against your human rights. The country is practically at a state of war on terrorism. When was the last time the UK was threatened? Did the population kick up a fuss about national ID cards then?

I'm sorry but I think bleating on about invasion of human rights by being told to carry a little plastic card is extremely detrimental to what the human rights bill is actually about.
Remember the main one, we have NO constitutional right to free speach, But it is tolerated.

Theres far more pressing issues than Extreme left wing policies of human rights and ID cards at this present point in history.

I also dont think that having to be able to identify yourself to the authorities if so requested would actually be against human rights. After all it happens in the states and a lot of other countries.

[peterska2]

right then well shortly everyone will have a photocard driving licence.

This is a form of ID card in itself.

At work I wear a ID card at all times.

If I go to the bank I have to take my passport if I want to withdraw more than £500 in one day.

Now if everywhere accepted the same ID then it would be better.

Somewhere in this thread someone said about the things happening in revalation not happing in our lifetimes. I have to say that it is not possible for anyone to know that and that as such the events foretold could start today, next week, next year or in a thousand years. Only God knows the answer to that one and as such it cannot be foretold with any dates involved.

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
But your not, Your Birth, Marriage and Death are all registered By law.
So with the exception of Marraige (possibly) and Death, you simply are NOT anonymous are you?
You are required by LAW to take part in the census every 10 years. This also gives out certain information.

you understand why I dont think the human rights issue can be given?

I understand where you're coming from but I think you're misunderstanding the nature of the registration of births, deaths and marriages, and the census.

BDMs notes where I was on the day I was born, married and died (not yet tho'!) That information is on file but I cannot be required by law to produce it simply to prove who I am, unless it is to satisfy someone providing a service I myself have requested.

The Census takes a snapshot of who and where I am on a certain day, once a decade. But any information I give that could personally identify me is protectd by law for 100 years. No-one is allowed to use it to trace me as an individual.

There is a fundamental difference between records that are kept concerning me, and a legal power granted to the police requiring me to prove my ID.

I sometimes think of it from an exxtreme angle.
those people that complain about somehting as small and convenient as an ID card going against your human rights. The country is practically at a state of war on terrorism. When was the last time the UK was threatened? Did the population kick up a fuss about national ID cards then?

Last time we had an ID card scheme this country was in real danger of being invaded and occupied by a foreign power. At the beginning of the Blitz on London, public swimming baths were drained and then filled with formaldehyde in readiness for the 10s of 1,000s of people that died. 9/11 was an utter tragedy, as would something similar happening here, but it, and the 'war on terror' is simply not of the same magnitude as WW2.

I would be interested in some thoughts on how ID cards might have prevented 9/11, when the consensus appears to be that had the US security agencies made better use of powers they already had, the tragedy might have been averted.

I'm sorry but I think bleating on about invasion of human rights by being told to carry a little plastic card is extremely detrimental to what the human rights bill is actually about.

Belittling the opposing point of view - i.e. 'bleating', 'little plastic card' - does nothing to further a reasoned debate though, does it?

Remember the main one, we have NO constitutional right to free speach, But it is tolerated.

Merely a quirk of British history, all tied up with our constitutional monarchy. No-one rocks the boat essentially because any attempt by the Monarch to enforce his/her 'true authority' would end up in a constitutional crisis. At one time there was even a real fear amongst the British Establishment that the fervour of the French Revolution might spread to this side of the Channel.

Theres far more pressing issues than Extreme left wing policies of human rights and ID cards at this present point in history.

Very true, although a relative lack of importance is not equivalent to 'not important at all'.

I also dont think that having to be able to identify yourself to the authorities if so requested would actually be against human rights. After all it happens in the states and a lot of other countries.

True, and yet this police power in the USA failed to prevent 9/11. The number of people on Earth that have to carry ID papers is skewed by the fact that there is an oppressive regime running China - the most populous nation on Earth.

great post towny, I accept that belittling the opposition argument comment.
I just couldnt think of any better wording at that time and "spoke" my mind.

As for 9/11 and police power not being able ot stop it, there has been some evidence to suggest that they did in fact know but simply didnt act upon it, or didnt have precise enough information.
Which, not meaning to belittle 9/11, unless the perps stood there with placards telling the gov exactly when and where and by whom the attacks would be carried out I dont think the US would have been able to stop it anyway.

I worry about the security of this country, I worry about terrorism. I just think that its a frivilous argument about carrying ID cards or not. I can probably sit here and come up with some extreme examples of human rights invasions, and yes they would all be completely out of context but actually and very worryingly could be argued at the European court.

As stated in another very recent post by KA I beleive of the top of my head, anything that can positively identify anyone that was as small as a credit card would in essence be a good and practicle thing. I dislike carrying my passport, I worry enough about it whilst on holiday. I dont like carying my driving licence although this is better since I got my picture card one.

Originally posted by Xaccers
/wonders what Graham has to hide

Have I mentioned recently what I do for a living?!

[kronas]

Originally posted by Martin
Sorry matey Second time I have been called a killjoy in one day.:p

yeh yeh i wont forget this :p

[Martin]

Originally posted by kronas
yeh yeh i wont forget this

I did say sorry, anyway Russ would have known that it wasn't exactly hard was it? :p I promise next time you ask a question I'll ignore it. :p

[kronas]

Originally posted by Martin
I did say sorry, anyway Russ would have known that it wasn't exactly hard was it? I promise next time you ask a question I'll ignore it.:

nah dont ignore my questions... i did ask russ i didnt know your name was russ :p

/me wonders if there is something we should know

want to come out of the closet :p

Originally posted by peterska2 right then well shortly everyone will have a photocard driving licence.

Err, no, actually they won't.

I don't drive. I have no plans to learn to drive, so I won't have a photocard driving licence.

Even if I did I would not be required to carry it unless I'm driving and nobody can *expect* me to produce it to prove my identity.

If I go to the bank I have to take my passport if I want to withdraw more than £500 in one day.

Now if everywhere accepted the same ID then it would be better

No, it could be *easier*, but that is not the same as "better".

PS BTW, your viewpoint seems rather at odds with someone who has "Why behave?" on his profile!!

Towny:

Re: your post 112.

I was going to respond to timewarrior's message, but you've said practically everything I would have said in reply to it (and pretty much in the style I would have done too!), so thanks for saving me the time!

[Theodoric]

Originally posted by Drudge
From todays "Sunday Times"

"I have to buy an identity card type "passport", at about £40, for my horse in case he should ever enter the human food chain.

Now Blunkett says I will have to buy an identity card at nearly £40 for myself.

Should I start worrying"

Definitely! It has all been predicted. Hands up those who have read a book by Harry Harrison called "Make Room, Make Room!" or the film that was made of it, "Soylent Green"?