[merged] Price increase

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Neil

What do you think this thread is about!?

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Neil

What do you think this thread is about!?

I know what its about but I noticed it was in response to a letter someone receieved, but this is the entire list of ntl price changes, which I dont know if were already posted or not, I already noticed 1 thing that was different as before we had romours of analogue tv price rises and digital been frozen when in fact the opposite has happened.

As for my 1mbit internet connection I am yet to decided on if I am downgrading or not, I dont mind a price rise if its all the way but ntl instead of adding £1 to each broadband package chose to just add £3 to the 1mbit and freeze the other 2, it looks to me they are wishing they never released the 1mbit product and they are trying to push customers off it, the packages are already unfair with the traffic limits, they could have raised all 3 or just raised the 1mbit and increased the cap at the same time, but no they just raised the price, thats just arrogance. Ntl will get away with this tho, worser things are going on in the ADSL sector at the moment adslguide announced changes that are going to happen in novemeber which are going to effectively double contention on adsl ipstream products and make them capped, early indications are they are going to be capped more heavily then ntl although we wont know until it happens.

[erol]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

correction to erol and kits post's , although erol made a outstanding post.

actually I had already (with help from sunil) created a more complete / accurate version of that post which can be found here.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...131#post196131

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

The BT Ipstream product has a 20:1 2048/256 package as well, although it isn't cheap but it is uncapped and reliable. The datastream variant is cheaper but speeds are very incosistent due to the high contention and low user volume.

Esseniatly all the IP (and datastream for that matter) products are uncapped. It is upto the ISP to decide to cap usage or not. The real difference to an end user of an IPStream based solution vs a DataStream based one is that with IPStream they know explicitly what the maximum contention between their local exchange and their ISP is (either 20:1 or 50:1 depending on the product used by the ISP). With datastream they do not know what the maximum contention is in that section. It may be better or it may be worse.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Anyone here thinking of moving over to ADSL needs to know the dangers of datastream, almost all the low priced 1mbit and 2mbit prices on ADSL use datastream, so research before you order if LLU or IPStream performance should be fine.

What is true of datastream (that you do not know what the contetion ratio is between local exchange and ISP) is also true of LLU. It is only with IPStream based products that you know what the maximum contention ratio is between local exchange and ISP is. DataStream (or LLU) based products are not inherently better or worse that IPStream products, its just you have a bit more knowledge with IPStream re contention. Having said that there are (generally selling business based services) ISPs that offer datastream based products where they do guarantee a contention ratio (I have seen as low as 5:1) from local exchange to ISP, but they obviously cost more than those with higher or unkown contention is this section.

[DrAwesome]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

As for my 1mbit internet connection I am yet to decided on if I am downgrading or not, I dont mind a price rise if its all the way but ntl instead of adding £1 to each broadband package chose to just add £3 to the 1mbit and freeze the other 2, it looks to me they are wishing they never released the 1mbit product and they are trying to push customers off it, the packages are already unfair with the traffic limits, they could have raised all 3 or just raised the 1mbit and increased the cap at the same time, but no they just raised the price, thats just arrogance.

You can always look at the £3 increase on NTL's 1mb service another way, they reduced their xbox tech support by £3 & added it onto their 1mb tier making sure that all NTL 1mb subscribing customers pay the increase regardless of wether they subscribe to XBL.. the NTL xbl tech help was slated as a waste of money by some, maybe NTL decided to get what they lost as a result another way.

[Chrysalis]

sorry about my mistake yes all ipstream and datastream are currently uncapped unless capped by the isp.

erol well the datastream packages do state contention levels, I believe bulldog is 40:1, but the problem is datastream is going down a small virtual pipe and not shared between isp's like ipstream so eg. Bulldog might have 2 2mbit customers on a exchange so they get a 2 mbit virtual pipe (they wouldnt get a 4mbit virtual pipe they already losing money on the 2mbit pipe), now if both of these users use the connection the contention is going to be very noticeable speeds will be halved but the contention is only 2:1, on ipstream users on the same exchange but different isp's are bundled together on a virtual pipe that bt maintains, this normally means a bigger pipe, usually a 10mbit pipe in this case it would take 21 512kbit users downloading to start contention of and then it would be less noticeable then the above case it would need 40 for half speed, in short ipstream means contention is much less noticeable and in most cases you wont suffer from it, but datastream is littered with contention problems, isp's such as bulldog,tiscali, and netcentral use datastream and hence the low prices, Pipex,nildram and plusnet use the ipstream so are better quality isp's but of course cost a bit more.

[erol]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

erol well the datastream packages do state contention levels, I believe bulldog is 40:1, but the problem is datastream is going down a small virtual pipe and not shared between isp's like ipstream so eg. Bulldog might have 2 2mbit customers on a exchange so they get a 2 mbit virtual pipe (they wouldnt get a 4mbit virtual pipe they already losing money on the 2mbit pipe), now if both of these users use the connection the contention is going to be very noticeable speeds will be halved but the contention is only 2:1, on ipstream users on the same exchange but different isp's are bundled together on a virtual pipe that bt maintains, this normally means a bigger pipe, usually a 10mbit pipe in this case it would take 21 512kbit users downloading to start contention of and then it would be less noticeable then the above case it would need 40 for half speed, in short ipstream means contention is much less noticeable and in most cases you wont suffer from it, but datastream is littered with contention problems, isp's such as bulldog,tiscali, and netcentral use datastream and hence the low prices, Pipex,nildram and plusnet use the ipstream so are better quality isp's but of course cost a bit more.

I understand what you are saying and generally you are right that the more people that are contended on a larger pipe (at same contention ratio) the less such contention tneds to affect users. You are also right that with IP Stream all ISPs with users on that exchange are contended by BT onto a 'big pipe'. However it does not necesarily mean that a datastream or LLU will naturaly have greater contention or the same contention as IP stream on a smaller pipe. If you take easynet for example, they (generally) have their own physical network built out to exchanges they have DSLAMS in. As it costs them pretty much the same to put a small pipe into an exchange as a massive one, the chances are they have ample capacity, both in terms of actual contention and in terms of the size of the pipe for a given contention.

You are right that bulldogs quoted contention of 40:1 may have more impact on a users as an IP stream product at 50:1 contention (because of the effect of size of pipe and also because in general BT does not actually run anywhere near its maximums. As ever the subject of 'contention' is a complicated one (even contentious you could say). Personally I would not discount an ISP just because they use Datastream (or LLU) rather than IP Stream. A good ISP using Datastream will ensure that they have sufficent capacity from an exchange to their pop. It' s true however that for an ISP that wants to load users beyond the BT 50:1 contetion in the IP stream products would look at datastream as a means of achieveing this, as well as the general idea that their connection from echange to themselves will tend to be less users on a smaller pipe than IP stream services on that exchange.

[Graham F]

Originally Posted by erol

I understand what you are saying and generally you are right that the more people that are contended on a larger pipe (at same contention ratio) the less such contention tneds to affect users. You are also right that with IP Stream all ISPs with users on that exchange are contended by BT onto a 'big pipe'. However it does not necesarily mean that a datastream or LLU will naturaly have greater contention or the same contention as IP stream on a smaller pipe. If you take easynet for example, they (generally) have their own physical network built out to exchanges they have DSLAMS in. As it costs them pretty much the same to put a small pipe into an exchange as a massive one, the chances are they have ample capacity, both in terms of actual contention and in terms of the size of the pipe for a given contention.

You are right that bulldogs quoted contention of 40:1 may have more impact on a users as an IP stream product at 50:1 contention (because of the effect of size of pipe and also because in general BT does not actually run anywhere near its maximums. As ever the subject of 'contention' is a complicated one (even contentious you could say). Personally I would not discount an ISP just because they use Datastream (or LLU) rather than IP Stream. A good ISP using Datastream will ensure that they have sufficent capacity from an exchange to their pop. It' s true however that for an ISP that wants to load users beyond the BT 50:1 contetion in the IP stream products would look at datastream as a means of achieveing this, as well as the general idea that their connection from echange to themselves will tend to be less users on a smaller pipe than IP stream services on that exchange.

WTF has this got to do with this thread which is abt price increases?

Originally Posted by Scooby

WTF has this got to do with this thread which is abt price increases?

I agree - please wander back on topic guys.

There are other, more relevant threads, to discuss contention rations in.

[Biggus]

Having just read through most of this thread, I will not tolerate a price increase on the 1Mb I've got. We've been with NTL for 26months which is since they started BB in my area. NTL only got my custom initially because they beat BT to BB by 4 months.

I upgraded to the 1Mb from 600kb purely for the 256kb upload and the faster downloads (average a couple of GB per month), I can get the 256kb upload from ADSL but not from 600kb NTL. I have my own domain & email elsewhere because NTL is so unreliable, not to mention all the ****e I get on my NTL email accounts which makes it totally unsuitable for my kids use.

So essentially, NTL can either not charge me the £36 extra per year or lose £1200+ per year, because I'll dump the lot, & if they think I'm bluffing, they'll soon find out the hard way.

Originally Posted by Biggus

So essentially, NTL can either not charge me the £36 extra per year or lose £1200+ per year, because I'll dump the lot, & if they think I'm bluffing, they'll soon find out the hard way.

You can be quite sure that NTL will not make an exception for anyone - so you had better start looking for your alternatives.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Pem

You can be quite sure that NTL will not make an exception for anyone - so you had better start looking for your alternatives.

That's the thing though Pem-if there' sone thing that ntl are good at-it's being inconsistent.

I'll bet you a pound to a penny, that Biggus will speak to 5 different people at ntl, about his plan above to go, & he will receive 5 different responses.

Those responses will probably range from ''an I don't really give a feck-go to BT/Sky if ya like", right through to someone who genuinely cares about customers, & would do all he/she can to retain the custom.

[zoombini]

What a daft PDF file, how the heck are we supposed to print out that price rise document?

Its blooming massive!

[Derek]

Well you could just wait till you get your bill.

Then Ntl will have done all the printing for you.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by zoombini

What a daft PDF file, how the heck are we supposed to print out that price rise document?

Its blooming massive!

True, I think it's just the PDF that they send to the printers, rather thena reversioned one....

To save you the trouble, these are prices that have changed - first price is the current price, second is the new price, third price is the difference.

Telephone Packages
Phone & Surf £28.50 £30.99 (Up by £2.49)

Call Features
Call Barring £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p
Call Divert £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p
Call Waiting £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p
Caller Display £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p
Reminder Call £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p
Voicemail Plus £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p
3 Way Calling £1.00 £1.50 Up by 50p

Calls to mobiles....they claim every price (except those to '3') have been reduced, but they don't say by how much. This was a directive from the regulators not long back.....give with one hand, take with the other!

Internet
1Mb Broadband Internet £34.99 £37.99 Up by £3.00 per month.
Xbox & PS2 Service - down from 5 quid to 2 quid per month
Dial-up Unlimited Internet £10.00 £12.49 Up by £2.49 per month.
PAYG Dial-up (per min) Daytime 1p 3p 2p / Evening 1p 2p 1p / W/End same

Digital TV

Lots of changes here....to summarise:

Every no premium package (base, mid & family packs) has gone up by a quid a month.

Sky Sports channels up by 50p

Sky Sports Collection, up by £2

Sky Movies 1 up by a quid, but Sky Movies 2 DOWN by a quid (duh?)

Sky Sports & Movies Collection up by £2

All other premiums (language, adult channels etc.) price stays the same, apart from the Hangama Pack which is up by £1

Analogue subscribers - prices held, which is crazy becuase they receive some of the Sky channels too, and they should be encouraging customers to move to Digital. Muppetry!

Oh, and your Radio Times sub is going up by 13p!

Oh and if you read the small print, those who get their second phone line for £6 (like me) will now be paying £7.50 per month. Very clever, a 20% increase! One second phone line about to be cancelled!

On the whole, I can see that these rises, although small, will make a big difference to their operating cash. The telephony increases are the most serious (calling feats, second line etc) are all very low cost items to provide, yet will yield them a good deal of additional revenue (as they increased in price by 50% in some cases).

Anyone else feeling shafted?

[Edit] (Neil)-Great post Andy-I've just highlighted the price rises to make it easier for peeps.

[Biggus]

Originally Posted by Pem

You can be quite sure that NTL will not make an exception for anyone - so you had better start looking for your alternatives.

I already have done. :pp

Reconnect to BT = FREE
1Mb ADSL with F2S = £35.49p m & NO CAP + fixed IP (already have a router)
Sky+ = £199 (I was seriously considering this anyway)

So costs for moving are minimal (to me), + I'll get a lot more for my money, but if NTL don't increase my BB cost, they get to keep my business for a while longer.

I read somewhere that the £3 increase to 1Mb BB is basically subsidising the £3 drop in the Xbox Live & PS2 subscription, I don't use that, nor do I intend to, so why should I (& others) help pay for it?