ID cards for uk citizens over 16

[Russ]

Originally posted by Nor
Then that would be silly Russ.

OK now take what you just said to me - equally silly.

[Nor]

No. What I'm saying is we should be able to discuss, evaluate and decide on whats right in our society based on the potential benefits versus the potential drawbacks not on what it says in a book that was written 2000 years ago which had no clue what a society of today faces. That isn't silly.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Nor
No. What I'm saying is we should be able to discuss, evaluate and decide on whats right in our society based on the potential benefits versus the potential drawbacks not on what it says in a book that was written 2000 years ago which had no clue what a society of today faces. That isn't silly.

I'm not saying we should ALL boycott the ID card - just that it should not be compulsary. You advised me to stop believing in something which means a lot to me and millions of others. That's what I consider silly.

[Nor]

How many criminals do you think will suddenly find God ? The whole point about these cards is they have to be compulsary. There isn't much point in all the nice law abiding folk having them and the criminals not having to bother.

They should be compulsary regardless of religous beliefs because quite frankly if those beliefs are at odds with helping fight crime then the people who hold those beliefs really need to re-evaluate them.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Nor

They should be compulsary regardless of religous beliefs because quite frankly if those beliefs are at odds with helping fight crime then the people who hold those beliefs really need to re-evaluate them.

Sorry but that's rubbish. I have nothing to hide and if the police want to check up on me at any time then they're welcome to (except on a friday between 9:30 and 10pm coz that's when Scrubs is on ), but I will never be forced in to carrying such an identifier.

[Stuart W]

ID cards are a BAD idea.

No matter what technology is incorperated into the card it will still be abused.

Imagin having someone elses card adjusted to your photo / retinal scan / fingerprint..... not only would you pass yourself off as them, you wouldn't need any other ID.

Just like they are abused in the states. Ask any american teen if they own / use fake ID........

Besides, what ever happened to freedom? Am I only free if I conform to a set of restrictions??
OK, I understand there are allways restrictions in any society (no murdering people etc.) but to enforce everyone to carry identification is wrong in my opinion.
If I am stopped in the street by the Police, I expect them to have a reason to stop me, not me to provide proof of my identity!!

[Nor]

Can't believe how ridiculous you are being Russ. What has having a card confirming your identity really have to do with the mark of the beast anyway ? You already have to carry identification anyway when you go sit an exam, or open a video shop membership, get a library book out etc. I find it ridiculous that 1. the Bible says you shouldn't have to carry something identifying yourself and 2 that you choose to adopt such a position when its written 2000 years ago when they had no comprehension at all of the problems facing modern society.

Dunno how we always seem to manage to get into the religious debate on so many non related issues. Not everything has to be a religous choice you know. We'd be alot better off if we didn't have religion. Blind faith may be comendable and conforting but its also an excuse to adopt positions contrary to whats for the good of the country and the law abiding people who live here.

[Martin]

Yep I would back this, in my book nothing to hide nothing to fear. Police could certainly keep track on people stopped in the street for one thing and another.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Nor
Can't believe how ridiculous you are being Russ. What has having a card confirming your identity really have to do with the mark of the beast anyway ? You already have to carry identification anyway when you go sit an exam, or open a video shop membership, get a library book out etc. I find it ridiculous that 1. the Bible says you shouldn't have to carry something identifying yourself and 2 that you choose to adopt such a position when its written 2000 years ago when they had no comprehension at all of the problems facing modern society.

Dunno how we always seem to manage to get into the religious debate on so many non related issues. Not everything has to be a religous choice you know. We'd be alot better off if we didn't have religion. Blind faith may be comendable and conforting but its also an excuse to adopt positions contrary to whats for the good of the country and the law abiding people who live here.

I'll assume your lack of knowledge comes from not knowing anything about Revelations.

It is stated that during the 'end times' (do a google for more info) the antichrist will demand everyone takes a mark of loyalty to him. This will come in the form of an indentifying 'mark' on the forehead or back of the right hand. Anyone who takes this mark will never be saved. Hopefully you can see from this why many christians would not be in favour of using and ID card.

The problem here is that of all the books of the Bible, the only one which has not yet come true is Revelations - it is a prediction of the future. 2000 years or 10,000 years, we believe it will happen.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Russ D
I'll assume your lack of knowledge comes from not knowing anything about Revelations.

It is stated that during the 'end times' (do a google for more info) the antichrist will demand everyone takes a mark of loyalty to him. This will come in the form of an indentifying 'mark' on the forehead or back of the right hand. Anyone who takes this mark will never be saved. Hopefully you can see from this why many christians would not be in favour of using and ID card.

The problem here is that of all the books of the Bible, the only one which has not yet come true is Revelations - it is a prediction of the future. 2000 years or 10,000 years, we believe it will happen.

I didn't know that. So if it became compulsory to have a card at some point, you wouldn't carry one Russ? I can't see carry one of these cards would be swearing alliegence to the Antichrist.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Martin
I didn't know that. So if it became compulsory to have a card at some point, you wouldn't carry one Russ? I can't see carry one of these cards would be swearing alliegence to the Antichrist.

I've only given you a very small part of Revelations, I'd need to go in to detail to explain it all. Using this card may not neccessarily mean the antichrist is on the scene but a little research on the subject (try a google) will explain far more than I could.

I'm all in favour of UK ID cards, this well overdue. It will be a very useful thing to do and can only make life simpler. Those who are opposed suffer from a form of paranoia and completely ignore the fact that we already carry numerous examples of ID everyday.

Oh gods, here we go with the ID card debate again...

Let's take a few critical points:

1) "So what's the problem? We carry lots of ID all the time".

Generally true, however in the UK we have a fundamental right to "go about our lawful business without let or hinderance". (A "let" is a "permission")

We do *not* have to carry ID and we cannot be *required* to identify ourselves to anyone, not even the Police unless they have reasonable grounds for asking. (And "I think you're not carrying an ID card" is *not* reasonable grounds!)

2) But the government says they won't be compulsory and they have no plans to make them compulsory.

Again, true. There again, this government also said that they had no plans to increase taxes...!

3) They will prevent crime.

Err, how? What crimes will they prevent? Burglary? Mugging? Driving without licence or insurance? Nope.

They *may* be able to cut down on eg Benefit Fraud, but since the majority of the country aren't *on* benefits, it seems like a big sledgehammer to crack a small nut. They may also be able to cut credit and debit card fraud, but let's just look at that in the next point...

4) Ah, but they'll make life easier when you do need to identify yourself.

Possibly true. Not long ago, when I opened a new business account, I had problems because, as I don't drive and don't have a passport, I had no "photographic ID" which was needed (despite the fact that there were six people in the bank who could have identified me by sight!)

However let's just follow this along a moment. It could cut down on credit card and debit card fraud if you have to present your ID card with your credit card. But what this means is that *every* time you want to buy something, be it fuel for your card or your weekly shopping you could be *required* to prove who you are! But if the cards aren't compulsory to carry and you didn't bring yours along, are they going to refuse the transaction??

5) Ah, but the only people who worry about that are the crooks. After all, if you have nothing to hide, why should you worry?

Well, actually what I worry about is every time I hear that argument I see a basic and fundamental right being eroded a little more.

*EVERYBODY*, even those who have been convicted of crimes and subsequently been released from jail, has the right to be PRESUMED INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!

Pardon me for shouting, but that right is one that too many people seem to take for granted.

The "if you have nothing to hide" bunch, however, even if they don't *realise* they are saying, want to reverse that right so you are "presumed guilty until proven innocent". By their logic, if I don't want an ID card, I must have "something to hide", therefore I am guilty and *I* have to prove my innocence!

That would turn our entire system of justice on its head throw away an extremely precious right.

6) Ok, but you'd only be asked for your ID if the Police had reason to believe you were a criminal.

Really? I suggest, then, you take a look at the application of the "Sus" laws from the 1980s where the Police could stop someone "on suspicion" of them being criminals.

Unfortunately a lot of people seemed to be being stopped solely on the grounds of being "suspiciously black". Even in France, where they have ID cards and the rules say you're not allowed to do this, a disproportionate number of people who are stopped and asked for ID are of North African/ Algerian descent (and that includes black British tourists).

So, tell me again, how good ID cards are for us all...

Originally posted by Nor
<snip> I find it ridiculous that 1. the Bible says you shouldn't have to carry something identifying yourself and 2 that you choose to adopt such a position when its written 2000 years ago when they had no comprehension at all of the problems facing modern society.<snip>

It would be helpful if you displayed some evidence of having tried to understand what the Bible is about before dismissing it out of hand. I want to believe you have an honest and well thought out opinion on the subject 'cos I prefer always to think the best of people as far as possible. However I can't escape the niggling suspicion that you're just being ignorant.

<snip>Blind faith may be comendable and conforting but its also an excuse to adopt positions contrary to whats for the good of the country and the law abiding people who live here.

How deeply patronizing. Who made you the arbiter of what's good for this country? People deciding for themselves that they know what's best for everyone else is exactly how this ridiculous ID card plan has come about.

Interesting Graham but not convincing. Having lived & worked in Zimbabwe where ID cards are compulsory but strangely not required when moving about my wife & I always used to carry ID because the ZRP (Zimbabwe Republic Police) would often stop people to check ID and the consequences for not carrying ID could be very serious, kept standing in the heat, hungry & thirsty until some hours later being marched off to nearest police station to be charged. The ZRP took little interest if those apprehended were locals, often Black women with kids, the odd unsuspecting tourist or anyone else. I suppose that's an argument against ID cards but its extreme, there is no law & order in Zimbabwe now.

Likewise in Kenya was supposed to carry ID but never a problem there.

Anyway fair enough you have your opinion we agree to differ.