when does the education start ?

[kronas]

the parents of an elementary school girl were angry, after there 'first grade' daughter was found to be reading a book about two men 'kissing' indeed the book was about two men falling in love......

the mother said:

"I was flabbergasted," Hartsell said. "My child is not old enough to understand something like that, especially when it is not in our beliefs."

source: local6.com

http://www.local6.com/news/2931282/detail.html

i would be every interested to hear peoples views on this, i was concerned about the 'beliefs' bit what is that all about ?

[Chris W]

If people do not let their children learn about things like this, how are the adopted children of gay couples ever going to be accepted at school when they explain that they don't have a mum, but have two dads.

I can kind of understand the parents view, but i think most children are more intellegent and understanding than parents think. If they parents say 'you can't read about things like the because it is wrong' then they child is more likely to grow up homophobic, a simple explanation should be enough to satisfy the childs curiosity, and in a society that is becoming increasingly tolerant of homosexuality, i think it is important that children are educated too.

all my opinion of course... feel free to disagree

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by monkeybreath

If people do not let their children learn about things like this, how are the adopted children of gay couples ever going to be accepted at school when they explain that they don't have a mum, but have two dads.

I can kind of understand the parents view, but i think most children are more intellegent and understanding than parents think. If they parents say 'you can't read about things like the because it is wrong' then they child is more likely to grow up homophobic, a simple explanation should be enough to satisfy the childs curiosity, and in a society that is becoming increasingly tolerant of homosexuality, i think it is important that children are educated too.

all my opinion of course... feel free to disagree

I disagree.
I feel that very young children should be educated along 'mainstream' lines until they are older.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I disagree.

ok so you should

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I feel that very young children should be educated along 'mainstream' lines until they are older.

what do you mean by mainstream ?

kissing someone of the same sex is not considered mainstream because ?

its irrelevant on whether the kiss was sexual as the bond was that of freindship and a relationship, to a person of that age that would not be relevant.......

having said that you would deny the freedom of choice to see things in a clear and unobstrusive light ?

[Chris W]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I disagree.
I feel that very young children should be educated along 'mainstream' lines until they are older.

hmm... what is your definition of young children though? and how do you define mainstream, in a society that is becoming more and more tolerant to things that differ from the "norm(!)"?

I can see why you would disagree, but what about the children who do have gay parents? It is well known that black children usually play with black dollies, and white will usually play with white dollies. So should children from a heterosexual background be read stories about straight couples and those from homosexual backgrounds be read stories about homosexual couples?

btw i don't feel strongly about this... i am just playing devil's advocate :pp i do like a good debate!

Originally Posted by kronas

the mother said:"My child is not old enough to understand something like that, especially when it is not in our beliefs."

ROFL! And is it the "understanding" or the "beliefs" that is *really* causing this mother the probelms?!

I'll give you three guesses...

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I feel that very young children should be educated along 'mainstream' lines until they are older.

"Mainstream"? What exactly is "mainstream"?

Would you agree that most "mainstream" people accept that there's nothing wrong with two men kissing and falling in love?

If so, what's wrong with a book about it? Surely it's better for children to learn that this sort of thing is perfectly acceptable, rather than have prejudices forced upon them.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Graham

I'll give you three guesses...

rock, paper, scissors.

[Nikko]

Originally Posted by Graham

"Mainstream"? What exactly is "mainstream"?

Would you agree that most "mainstream" people accept that there's nothing wrong with two men kissing and falling in love?

If so, what's wrong with a book about it? Surely it's better for children to learn that this sort of thing is perfectly acceptable, rather than have prejudices forced upon them.

Mainstream would be the heterosexual child producing opposite sex couples required to propogate the continuation of the species.

Men can kiss and fall in love, but to be honest is there a future in it?

Why on earth should kids be faced with non mainstream books advocating men kissing? this is not remotely acceptable in any culture I am aware of - its basically an extremely sub culture vyeing for space.

[Chris W]

Originally Posted by Nikko

Mainstream would be the heterosexual child producing opposite sex couples required to propogate the continuation of the species.

true

Men can kiss and fall in love, but to be honest is there a future in it?

Why on earth should kids be faced with non mainstream books advocating men kissing? this is not remotely acceptable in any culture I am aware of - its basically an extremely sub culture vyeing for space.

in this case why are homosexual marriages and adoption by homosexual couples being legalised? surely a child being offered the chance to grow up with love and affection is better than spending their childhood in a care home or being pushed from pillar to post different sets of foster parents?

The fact that leglalisation has been consider must surely indicate that it IS becoming acceptable. Oh an also in Shinto, homosexuality is considered a superior form of love.

Originally Posted by monkeybreath

true



in this case why are homosexual marriages and adoption by homosexual couples being legalised? surely a child being offered the chance to grow up with love and affection is better than spending their childhood in a care home or being pushed from pillar to post different sets of foster parents?

The fact that leglalisation has been consider must surely indicate that it IS becoming acceptable. Oh an also in Shinto, homosexuality is considered a superior form of love.

I dont think Shintoism has a large follwoing in the UK.
Look at some religions and the way they treat women, would it make it ok to abuse women because another religion thinks it as OK? No didnt think so.

Look at it from the other side, in this world of intolerence is it fair to adopt a child if you are a gay couple knowing the treatment that child will receive at school. Bullying is a problem for most children, the children certainly dont need more "ammunition" to taunt their pray with.

Remember we dont live in an ideal world, homosexuality is still considered to be wrong by many people. And most kids would love to have ammunition to call the "weird" kid a ******.

I personally dont think that this incident (of pupils reading a book about same sex couples faling in love) was appropriate, at 9 years old I dont even think teaching about hetrosexual relationships is appreopriate.

Originally Posted by Nikko

Mainstream would be the heterosexual child producing opposite sex couples required to propogate the continuation of the species.

Riiight....!

So people who form relationships and, indeed have sex, *without* the desire or intent of having children are not "mainstream", yes? So our children should not be "faced" with that either...?

Men can kiss and fall in love, but to be honest is there a future in it?

What business is it of yours or anyone else's if there is a "future" in it??

Why on earth should kids be faced with non mainstream books advocating men kissing? this is not remotely acceptable in any culture I am aware of - its basically an extremely sub culture vyeing for space.

No, it's a group of people who have as much right as anyone else to kiss and form relationships with the person whom they are attracted to, and who simply want the "mainstream" to understand and *respect* that right.

If you teach children from an early age that this is not "mainstream" or it is "wrong" or "unacceptable" then they will grow up simply repeating the bigotry and prejudice of the previous generations.

And if any of *them* feel that way inclined, they will not feel guilty or ashamed for natural feelings that they have little control over.

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Look at it from the other side, in this world of intolerence is it fair to adopt a child if you are a gay couple knowing the treatment that child will receive at school. Bullying is a problem for most children, the children certainly dont need more "ammunition" to taunt their pray with.

And how, exactly , do you propose to reduce or eliminate that "intolerance" if children are *not* taught that it is acceptable and *should* be tolerated?

Not that long ago it would have been unconscionable, if not illegal in some places for a mixed-race couple to form a relationship. However people have stood up and *fought* against that sort of bigotry and prejudice and now (in most places) these couples can walk down the street openly.

Gay relationships *are* becoming tolerated, but only because children are learning more and more that they're perfectly acceptable and reasonable, despite a bigotted minority who want to perpetuate old hatreds.

I personally dont think that this incident (of pupils reading a book about same sex couples faling in love) was appropriate, at 9 years old I dont even think teaching about hetrosexual relationships is appreopriate.

But is that just *your* prejudices showing???

[BBKing]

Surely the bullying is a symptom of intolerance, suspicion and ignorance? Therefore portraying homosexuality as acceptable (for adults, anyway) is likely to *reduce* bullying rather than anything else.

Nikko - I presume since you wish to couple sex solely with the production of children that you're againtst recreational sex and contraception? One of the defining things about human civilisation is the realisation that we can control our own fertility. If you accept that recreational sex is acceptable you can't then say that homosexual recreational sex isn't acceptable, since both are concerned with adult pleasure and bonding rather than the production of children.

[LostintheNW]

Nikko your comments about homosexuals bein a sub culture are pathetic, its people like you that stop the world from becomming a better place where everyone is accepted.

Back on topic - have to agree that teaching children say under the age of 11 anything about sex isn't totally right, unless the parents want to do it - children under that age need to learn about forming friendships and understand what is an acceptable way to treat someone. Over 11 I don't see whats wrong with them being taught about sexuality, its something they will have to deal with the older they get