a 'sign' or pure 'coincidence'

Originally posted by Ramrod
It is certainly described in the mystical literature of all the world's great religions as a state of ultimate unity. And when a person is in this state he or she loses all sense of discrete being, and even the difference between self and others is obliterated.

Describes some eastern religions quite well but is weak as a general description

But even if the final location of God is in the temporal and parietal lobes of the brain, this might not be a final victory for atheists. Finding the existence of a neural structure which sustains religious experience could simply be evidence that a higher power so contructed humans as to possess the capacity to experience the divine.

Well that saves me saying it ...

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by towny


Well that saves me saying it ...

I thought that you and Russ would like it....like I said we could go on for years here (and not get anywhere)

[Russ]

Originally posted by Ramrod
but you would know that I had a screw loose

Would I really? I wasn't aware that you knew me so well....

Of course they were personal, they were (probably) created by your brain for you.

Actually no they weren't, they were created by my God for me.

I have had occurrences, close shaves, near misses that, if I was religious I would have attributed to a higher power. Before you say....how do you know that they weren't down to divine intervention?.......of course I don't but I think that on balance, they probably weren't.
We could go round and round for days......years even [/B]

Wow, sounds like someone is trying to impose their beliefs on me....and we can't be having that now can we?

[kronas]

Originally posted by Ramrod
Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquili of the Nuclear Medicine Division at the University of Pennsylvania have been conducting brain-imaging experiments on highly proficient mediators in order to identify those other brain areas where activity is linked to religious experience. One of their most interesting findings was decreased activity in the posterior superior parietal lobule. Our sense of distinction between self and world may well lie in this brain area.

It is certainly described in the mystical literature of all the world's great religions as a state of ultimate unity. And when a person is in this state he or she loses all sense of discrete being, and even the difference between self and others is obliterated.

Such experiences are often described as a perfect union with God, and would appear to be mediated by the posterior superior temporal lobule, which is what helps us diffentiate between self and non-self. So altered activity in this area might be linked with a sense of unity with the world.

A decreased sense of awareness of the boundaries between the self and the external world could lead to a sense of oneness with others, thereby generating a sense of community and cohesiveness. This could explain why religious sentiment could be of positive benefit for the survival of tribes. This could also explain why natural selection favoured the evolution of a religious centre in the brain.

But Newberg and D'Aquili have an even more parsimonious neurological explanation for God. They point out that one natural function of our brains is constantly to infer the causes of events we witness. But what happens when no cause is discernible?

Newberg and D'Aquili postulate that the brain invokes gods, powers, spirits or some similar causal agent. When we find no discernible rules we can use to our advantage, we construct myths to help orientate ourselves within that disquieting universe.

But even if the final location of God is in the temporal and parietal lobes of the brain, this might not be a final victory for atheists. Finding the existence of a neural structure which sustains religious experience could simply be evidence that a higher power so contructed humans as to possess the capacity to experience the divine.

nice one ramrod :p

/me saves this for future refrence :p

[Stuart W]

My mum spent 12yrs imposing christianity upon me.

Believed at first, then about 2 weeks after I had been confirmed, I had a long chat with "Father Roy" and decided to 'opt-out'.

Religion is fine for some people, to have belief is a good thing. However, for me it's a no-go. I fail to see the point in devotig so much of my time worshiping a being which is far supirior to my feeble being. I also fail to see what "God" gets out of it.

I studied the bible for many years and have come to the conclusion that Jesus was a teacher. We just didn't learn the correct lessons. At no point in the bible does Jesus get everyone to start erecting buildings to go for worship, nor did he ask anyone to collect monies on his behalf.

Ahh, it's late & I'm ranting. (sorry).

In a nutshell, God himself is proof he doesn't exist.

[Edit] God is all forgiving, so long as you truly repent.
Picture this.....
Spend my whole life 'sinning' (smoking, drinking, swearing, womanising etc.) no real bad ones, no murder etc. Now, when I die, I find myself in front of St Peter being judged for my life.... Believe me, with St Peter standing at the gates to God's pad, I would truly repent.

[Russ]

My mum spent 12yrs imposing christianity upon me.

Believed at first, then anout 2 weeks after I had been confirmed, I had a long chat with "Father Roy" and decided to 'opt-out'.

From you saying 'confirmed' this would appear to be Catholicism, I'm a little confused as to how you had Christianity 'pushed' on you if you had Catholic teaching.

At no point in the bible does Jesus get everyone to start erecting buildings to go for worship, nor did he ask anyone to collect monies on his behalf.

Again this sounds like a Catholic (or EX catholic) point of view. In the early days, a 'church' was just a collective of people, as oposed to a building. Money was to be collected for those who need it, not for Jesus. I've certainly never heard of anyone collecting for Him.

God is all forgiving, so long as you truly repent.
Picture this.....
Spend my whole life 'sinning' (smoking, drinking, swearing, womanising etc.) no real bad ones, no murder etc. Now, when I die, I find myself in front of St Peter being judged for my life.... Believe me, with St Peter standing at the gates to God's pad, I would truly repent.

Too late! The requirement is that you repent before you get off'd. That you would need proof (ie standing before the pearly gates) to repent kind of defeats the objective.

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by Russ D
Would I really? I wasn't aware that you knew me so well....

You are a reasonable person. Any reasonable person would think I was mad for holding such a belief. Thus I feel that my statement is correct.

Actually no they weren't, they were created by my God for me.

I'm not going to argue.

Wow, sounds like someone is trying to impose their beliefs on me

How?

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by kronas
nice one ramrod :p

/me saves this for future refrence :p

You did read the last paragraph?

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by Russ D
From you saying 'confirmed' this would appear to be Catholicism

Huh? I was confirmed but I'm not Catholic. I am/was Lutheran.

[kronas]

Originally posted by Ramrod
You did read the last paragraph?

yep i know what it says

[Russ]

Originally posted by Ramrod
How?

The brain is capable of making you feel such things....and of making you think that they are real.
An example: When someone has an angiogram (dye is pumped into the coronary arteries and then observed on x-ray) they can feel that they are in the presence of an invisible being/angel/devil, they might feel an incredible feeling of peace come over them. Or they might simply feel heat or that they have wet themselves. All of which is simply an effect of the dye entering the coronary arteries.
There are other explanations for religious experiences....

Most of the above but I think the last line says enough...

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by Russ D
Most of the above but I think the last line says enough...

I was talking about this quote that you highlited:

I have had occurrences, close shaves, near misses that, if I was religious I would have attributed to a higher power. Before you say....how do you know that they weren't down to divine intervention?.......of course I don't but I think that on balance, they probably weren't.
We could go round and round for days......years even

as for this one:

The brain is capable of making you feel such things....and of making you think that they are real.
An example: When someone has an angiogram (dye is pumped into the coronary arteries and then observed on x-ray) they can feel that they are in the presence of an invisible being/angel/devil, they might feel an incredible feeling of peace come over them. Or they might simply feel heat or that they have wet themselves. All of which is simply an effect of the dye entering the coronary arteries.
There are other explanations for religious experiences....

It is merely a statement of fact.

[Russ]

But your last line is an opinion, not a fact.

[Stuart W]

'twas a high anglican Church of England (as I remember) nowt to do with catholics.

I went to confirmation classes for 3 yrs, then got a "little black book" and was alowed to take communion.

OK, the collection of monies on JC's beehalf was a bit strong, but....
Take a good hard look at the sheer capital the C of E has... not just real estate (it's not all churches & graveyards!) but the valuables within the establishment.....
Would God realy be pleased with this collection of wealth?
I would have thought he'd be happier if there were no / few churches and they all ran with no profit by voulanteers.

Don't want to argue over this, everyone is entitled to an opinion and I fully respect anyones beliefs in any religion

[kronas]

Originally posted by Russ D
But your last line is an opinion, not a fact.

yes but russ you dont believe fact really do you you seem to pick and choose when you want to believe a fact but dont you follow your religion based on belief