US style british citizenship a positive step ?

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

America has alot of the same social problems, often worse than we do.

I can only speak for North America, not England, but try rural areas. Cities are traditionally more liberal, hence more social problems.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I can only speak for North America, not England, but try rural areas. Cities are traditionally more liberal, hence more social problems.

Which is pretty much the same here, go out to a village and people are generally welcoming and open.
Go to the cities or suburbs and it can be totally different.

I think it was "the Human Animal" documentary that showed it best.
They got a bloke to colapse in a village, and within seconds a shop owner had rushed out of her shop to see if he was ok, and other people were coming to assist.
Then he did the same in a city, and people just walked around him. It was ages before anyone stopped to see if he was ok.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by Sociable

Perhaps remembering we are all citizens of the world with duties and responsibilities to all humanity regardless of nation, creed, religion or anything else that divides us is the key.

I do not care for the rest of the world. They are merely other people. I do not believe in this new age concept of "citizen of the world." My allegiance lies to the United States, Canada, and Her Majesty the Queen. I do not owe allegiance to any other. I am not a citizen fo the world. They do not need me, nor do I particularly care what they do. It is none of my business, unless an ally is involved.

Flag waving jingoism only serves to divide and antagonize and has no place in a modern world IMHO.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Antagonize? Why do you feel antagonistic if I wave my flag? Aren't you PROUD to be British?

And who says division is bad? Of course I want to divide. I'm different from Brazil. I'm different from the French. I don't WANT to be like them.

Accepting that a child's tears carry the same pain where ever they are shed is therefore my personal point of reference.

But if given a choice saving only one life, and having to choose between my neighbor's kid or some kid in a faraway country I don't know, I will FIRST take care of those I associate with. I will take care of my own family, friends, and people FIRST. THEN, and only then, anyone else.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Which is pretty much the same here, go out to a village and people are generally welcoming and open.
Go to the cities or suburbs and it can be totally different.

I think it was "the Human Animal" documentary that showed it best.
They got a bloke to colapse in a village, and within seconds a shop owner had rushed out of her shop to see if he was ok, and other people were coming to assist.
Then he did the same in a city, and people just walked around him. It was ages before anyone stopped to see if he was ok.

Well, if your opinion is that flag waving, singing national anthems, and pledging allegiance does nothing for social cohesion, then why are you objecting to it? You're saying exactly opposite of what Sociable is saying.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I can only speak for North America, not England, but try rural areas. Cities are traditionally more liberal, hence more social problems.

Translated - The conservatives have found a new hook to use as a convenient excuse on which to hang social problems

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I do not care for the rest of the world. They are merely other people.

Don`t worry, there are some enlightened countries such as France that feel the same way about the USA. I only wish the UK had the same outlook on America.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Well, if your opinion is that flag waving, singing national anthems, and pledging allegiance does nothing for social cohesion, then why are you objecting to it? You're saying exactly opposite of what Sociable is saying.

What you quoted was in reference to the suggestion that pledging etc solves social problems, and I pointed out that america has the same social problems as the UK, and in some cases worse problems than the UK.
This then led to the point that there is a difference between people in urban and rural areas.
Sorry that you didn't understand that bit form the posts, hopefully now you do, and can see that this had nothing to do with what sociable was saying.

Now, sociable was saying that it can cause alienation, rather than trying to build a better world, it promotes the idea that your own nation is fine (even though it doesn't acutally make a difference to the social problems that all nations have) and so you end up not giving a damn about the rest of the world (as you have expresed) and such shortsightedness eventually catches up with you, as the world is linked (never heard of the world recession?)

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I'm sorry you feel that way. Antagonize? Why do you feel antagonistic if I wave my flag? Aren't you PROUD to be British?

We've been brought up to dislike our country and have let the National Front take over flag waving until it became socially unacceptable. Onlyin the last 4 years or so since the Football and Rugby world cups has flag flying / waving been deemed more acceptable.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

But if given a choice saving only one life, and having to choose between my neighbor's kid or some kid in a faraway country I don't know, I will FIRST take care of those I associate with. I will take care of my own family, friends, and people FIRST. THEN, and only then, anyone else.

But by helping a neighbours child you are being a world citizen, not selfish and self centred.

Seems we are back to the national anthem (now I have read and understood this verse)

Lord let wars' tempest cease;
Fold the whole world in peace
Under thy wings.
Make all the nations one;
All hearts beneath the sun;
Till Thou shalt reign alone;
Great King of Kings.

Did anyone read that euro tripe republic anthem yesterday? Thats almost on topic to this thread.

[Jerrek]

What you quoted was in reference to the suggestion that pledging etc solves social problems, and I pointed out that america has the same social problems as the UK, and in some cases worse problems than the UK.

Not solving, helping. And, I didn't raise the point. My point is that it helps social cohesion, and that stands. You're making a very, very broad generalization. I'm sure there is merit in it, but I'm sure there is another side too. For sure we do have social problems, but my lack of experience in England prevents me from commenting on this.

Now, sociable was saying that it can cause alienation, rather than trying to build a better world,

I am not interested in building a "better world" when we have so many problems in North America. I'm sure the world can manage without us.

it promotes the idea that your own nation is fine

How? How does it promote the idea that your own nation is fine? You really don't get the meaning of singing the national anthem or pledging allegiance, eh?

Oh and you still haven't answered my original two questions.

so you end up not giving a damn about the rest of the world (as you have expresed) and such shortsightedness eventually catches up with you, as the world is linked (never heard of the world recession?)

It isn't that I don't care about the rest of the world, it is just that there is enough problems this side to keep us busy for a long time. Anyways, the rest of the world hates us so much. Why should we care? They just want to kill us, as all liberals are keen on pointing out.

[Jerrek]

We've been brought up to dislike our country and have let the National Front take over flag waving until it became socially unacceptable. Onlyin the last 4 years or so since the Football and Rugby world cups has flag flying / waving been deemed more acceptable.

I'd be very, very depressed. I'm a patriotic kind of guy, and I like flag waving and all these thingies attached with it. Why would you be brought up to dislike your country? You have much to be proud of. It certainly is better than all of Europe. It is different here. I didn't have a country, but now I have, and I will bring my kids up to be proud of who they are, their country, their anthem, and the pledge.

But by helping a neighbours child you are being a world citizen, not selfish and self centred.

No. Citizen implies allegiance. This new age liberal movement loves to quote how we are "citizens of the world," meaning, there is some higher form of world government.

THERE IS NOT. I have NOT sworn an oath to any world government. My allegiance lies with my countries, and my Queen.

And I don't see helpign a neighbor's child makes you a world citizen.



Europe now has an anthem?

[Xaccers]

I don't think this country is great, I know it is (sure it's not perfect and has some major problems, but it has some major merits too)
I am proud to be British.
But I don't need to wave a flag, or pledge allegiance because of that.
I think this is probably because as a Brit, I'm more reserved, if something is good, why do you need to shout about it?

To me, part of being British is realising that no matter where people are from, they're still people.
If someone asks for our help, Britain should give as much as it possibly can.

I think one of the reasons why america has such a poor international image is the selfish attitude of people like yourself Jerrek.
As a state it has a history of sticking it's head in the sand and letting the world burn, until it looks like america's interest might be affected.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Europe now has an anthem?

The European Anthem - adapted from the final movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony - was adopted by the Council of Europe in 1972. It is also used by the European Union. Herbert von Karajan, one of the greatest conductors of this century, acceded to a request by the Council of Europe to write three instrumental arrangements for solo piano, wind and symphonic orchestras.

The musical unions of four member states founded the dynamic Orchestre d'Harmonie des Jeunes de l'Union EuropÃÃâ€*’©enn e in 1988 to promote new European works for wind orchestra. Some seventy of the most talented young wind players are selected each year to study and tour together throughout the European Union.

and I'll go looking for that piece where they are putting lyrics to it!

[SMHarman]

EU fanatics' dire anthem
BRITONS face having to sing a European anthem praising the EU †œmotherland,ÃÃ⠀šÃ‚¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚¬Ã‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚Â� it was revealed last night.

Europeââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s top bureaucrat Romano Prodi has been given new words to go with the existing European hymn, Beethovenââ‚ ¬â„¢s Ode To Joy.



But Austrian academic Dr Peter Rolandââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s lyrics sparked fury with their Soviet and Nazi overtones.

There are ominous echoes of Stalinââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s imperialist Soviet regime in the line †œ ... freedom for its people in a bigger motherland.âââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�

The lyric is a dead ringer for one from the old Soviet anthem, †œ ... sing to the motherland, home of the free.ââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�

Shadow Foreign Secretary Michael Ancram fumed: †œThe people of Britain should give nil points to this EU anthem.

†œRomano Prodi and his friends, Mr Blair included, should abandon their ill-thought-out plans for a European superstate.ââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂ�



Frank Rosier, of the Normandy Veteransââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ Association, also blasted the †œMotherlandÃƚ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚à ‚ÂÂ� ode, saying: †œItÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Å ¾Ã‚¢s a load of rubbish.

†œI canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see anybody celebrating a Mother Europe.ââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�

Matthew McGregor, of the anti-euro No Campaign, said: †œBritish people donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t want to be swallowed up in a single state with its own flag and anthem.ââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�

Dr Roland, of Viennaââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s Europa Academy, gave a CD of the song to Mr Prodi yesterday.

A European Commission spokesman said it was merely a †œpersonal giftâ₠¬Ã‚Â�.

LEADING Eurosceptic Tory Sir Teddy Taylor, 66 †� MP for Rochford and Southend East †� is to stand down at the next General Election.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004051431,00.html

[Jerrek]

But I don't need to wave a flag, or pledge allegiance because of that.
I think this is probably because as a Brit, I'm more reserved, if something is good, why do you need to shout about it?

I don't I implied that it is needed, but it sure feels nice. Don't you love singing your national anthem? Don't you just love showing you're from Great Britain? Don't you just like experessing yourself?

I think one of the reasons why america has such a poor international image is the selfish attitude of people like yourself Jerrek.
As a state it has a history of sticking it's head in the sand and letting the world burn, until it looks like america's interest might be affected.

So the world can't govern itself without the United States' help and assistance? Why should we help others, when we have so much internal problems?



Now tell me, would be proud singing the European Union anthem, or the British anthem? Do you feel proud when you see the E.U. flag? Or when you see the Union Jack?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I don't I implied that it is needed, but it sure feels nice. Don't you love singing your national anthem? Don't you just love showing you're from Great Britain? Don't you just like experessing yourself?

Why would I need to express to everyone else that I am proud of being British?
I know I'm proud to be British, what's it to anyone else?

Originally Posted by Jerrek

So the world can't govern itself without the United States' help and assistance? Why should we help others, when we have so much internal problems?

So you'd have no problem if america had stood by and let europe become a Nazi superpower?
Or even under control of the Kaiser?

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Now tell me, would be proud singing the European Union anthem, or the British anthem? Do you feel proud when you see the E.U. flag? Or when you see the Union Jack?

A flag is just a flag, a song is just a song (a kiss is just a kiss)

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Now tell me, would be proud singing the European Union anthem, or the British anthem? Do you feel proud when you see the E.U. flag? Or when you see the Union Jack?

Its a Union Jack on a boat, a Union Flag on land.