career racism ?

[Xaccers]

After the grade-school class comes back inside, the teacher asks Alice, "What did you do at recess?"

Alice says, "I played in the sandbox."

"That's nice," the teacher says. "If you can go to the blackboard and write sand correctly, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie." Alice does, and she gets a cookie. Then the teacher asks Billy what he did at recess.

Billy says, "I played in the sandbox with Alice."

The teacher says, "Good. If you can write box on the blackboard, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie." Billy writes the word, and he gets a cookie. The teacher then asks Mustafa Abdul what he did at recess. "I tried to play with Alice and Billy," Mustafa answers, "but they threw rocks at me."

"They threw rocks at you? That sounds like blatant racial discrimination!" the teacher says. "If you can go to the blackboard and write blatant racial discrimination, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie."

Its often ammused me when these kind of statistics come out.

Things such as "there are more black youths in prinson than college". Yeah well if the black youths in question didnt do any law breaking and go to college then there wouldnt be "more black youths in prison than college"

Same goes for this proffessors thing. If they wanted to be professors then they should be, because they arent does not automatically mean there is career racism involved.

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Its often ammused me when these kind of statistics come out.

I'm glad you find it so funny.

Things such as "there are more black youths in prinson than college". Yeah well if the black youths in question didnt do any law breaking and go to college then there wouldnt be "more black youths in prison than college"

What a wonderful idea! I'm amazed that nobody thought of it before!!

Of course the facts that to get to college (assuming, of course, you don't have to pay for it) you need to get decent exam results and to get decent exam results you need a decent education and to get a decent education you need decent schools in deprived areas are merely insignificant details...

Originally Posted by Graham

I'm glad you find it so funny.



What a wonderful idea! I'm amazed that nobody thought of it before!!

Of course the facts that to get to college (assuming, of course, you don't have to pay for it) you need to get decent exam results and to get decent exam results you need a decent education and to get a decent education you need decent schools in deprived areas are merely insignificant details...

Let me see, You dont have to pay to go to college when you are 16 years old.
And no you dont need Decent exam results to get into college, But yes I concede you need 4 C passes to do A levels. A levels are only ever any good if you want to go to uni. Uni is only ever any good if your parents are millionaires. So at the end of the day everyone gets stuck in the same boat at uni.
At college ie Further education not Higher education there is a multitude of courses to do that dont need high grade GCSE passes.

So once again, if the people concerned in my previous prison statement didnt break the law then they may just well be in College instead of prison.

The fact that some people that happen to be black and educated to a high degree and then dont become professors is NOT an indication of career racism, does the survey take into account that thye may not want to be a professor? Does the system have to employ a black professor even though there may be no openings for a professor from any race?

This is exactly why I think these surveys and subsequent statements are a joke, ANY survey can be made to prove ANY hypothesis.

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Let me see, You dont have to pay to go to college when you are 16 years old.

No, but it helps.

And no you dont need Decent exam results to get into college,

No, but they help.

Now imagine that you look towards the bottom of the classes of students who could go to college, but probably won't because they have got poor results because they got a poor education (or, indeed, skipped school much of the time) and suddenly it's not so funny.

So once again, if the people concerned in my previous prison statement didnt break the law then they may just well be in College instead of prison.

And if my granny had wheels she'd have been a wagon.

It's all very well to say "ah but if..." but to make such a simplistic argument as this without looking at the background and expect it to be accepted as credible is just wishful thinking.

The fact that some people that happen to be black and educated to a high degree and then dont become professors is NOT an indication of career racism, does the survey take into account that thye may not want to be a professor? Does the system have to employ a black professor even though there may be no openings for a professor from any race?

This is exactly why I think these surveys and subsequent statements are a joke, ANY survey can be made to prove ANY hypothesis.

Whilst I don't deny that there may be flaws in the survey, the fact is that the "disadvantages" caused by racism start right from the very foundations of education and, indeed, society and that is something that should be tackled.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Graham

No, but it helps.

Not sure how that line can have anything to do with not having to pay for college courses at 16.

Originally Posted by Graham

No, but they help.

Colleges are more than happy to welcome people who have totally failed all of their GCSE's and wish to re-take them, from scratch. So if you went to a crap school (although in my experience, even with crap schools, its the pupils that don't want to learn that are the ones that come out with nothing, the pupils that are let down by teachers still normally manage to come out with something). So given that after leaving schools, there are still free opertinuties for people who have totally failed, what excuse do people have for choosing a life of crime? The schools aren't saying "you're black so we're giving you a crap education" the colleges aren't saying "you're black so we'll not accept you on our courses", so where is the racism?
They have the same oppertunities with education as white people, or asians, or orientals, and no one is forcing them into crime. So I think the suggestion that if they chose to go to college rather than crime would result in fewer black youths in prison and more in college is factually accurate.

Originally Posted by Graham

Now imagine that you look towards the bottom of the classes of students who could go to college, but probably won't because they have got poor results because they got a poor education (or, indeed, skipped school much of the time) and suddenly it's not so funny.

What about the other people at the same school who got the same crappy education but went on to college, or got a job?
Frankly, if you are going to bunk off school, then it is your choice, your responsibility, it's not like it takes that many brain cells to work out that you need to go to school to get an education, even a crap one, and as I said, at 16 you can do the courses again at college, heck, if you go to the LEA and tell them that your school is crap and you aren't going to attend, but you would attend a college course, they will send you to the college course! (happened to a couple of friends of mine)

Originally Posted by Graham

And if my granny had wheels she'd have been a wagon.

*tries not to think about riding your granny

Originally Posted by Graham

Whilst I don't deny that there may be flaws in the survey, the fact is that the "disadvantages" caused by racism start right from the very foundations of education and, indeed, society and that is something that should be tackled.

Are the disadvantages of inner city schools due to racism?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Not sure how that line can have anything to do with not having to pay for college courses at 16.

You may well get exactly what you pay for.

Colleges are more than happy to welcome people who have totally failed all of their GCSE's and wish to re-take them, from scratch.

(I'd point out that the original post was actually about the US, not the UK and I don't know what the US system is like)

So if you went to a crap school (although in my experience, even with crap schools, its the pupils that don't want to learn that are the ones that come out with nothing,

I don't deny that. However there is plenty of racism present in society that *makes* some black children not want to (or care about) learning.

If you've been harassed by the Police because, being young and black, you're the type "most likely to commit crime" and live in a deprived area and have probably already learned that it's "easier" to get money from stealing mobile phones, stereos and videos than having to work for it, there's a distinct lack of motivation.

What about the other people at the same school who got the same crappy education but went on to college, or got a job?

Or are now maybe stacking shelves in Tescos or frying burgers in McDs or are on the New Deal cheap labour for businesses scheme or doing something tedious and worthless for the minimum wage...

Are the disadvantages of inner city schools due to racism?

In some areas, I think, most likely, yes.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Graham

You may well get exactly what you pay for.

Ah I see, pay nothing for free education, and get free education, I can agree with that

Originally Posted by Graham

(I'd point out that the original post was actually about the US, not the UK and I don't know what the US system is like)

Whoops, missed that bit, I thought we were talking about the UK now, that makes your payment thing make more sense

Originally Posted by Graham

I don't deny that. However there is plenty of racism present in society that *makes* some black children not want to (or care about) learning.

If you've been harassed by the Police because, being young and black, you're the type "most likely to commit crime" and live in a deprived area and have probably already learned that it's "easier" to get money from stealing mobile phones, stereos and videos than having to work for it, there's a distinct lack of motivation.

It's that dilema isn't it I suppose? Blacks get targetted by the police because statistically they're the most likely to be criminals, which kinda makes more sense than targetting people who generally aren't known for being criminals, but this (and not quite sure how) causes them to not want to learn, and drives them to crime.

Originally Posted by Graham

Or are now maybe stacking shelves in Tescos or frying burgers in McDs or are on the New Deal cheap labour for businesses scheme or doing something tedious and worthless for the minimum wage...

But they aren't criminals, and if they stick with it at McD's they can become an assistant manager in a few months, earning £18K, and not long later move up to manager on even more.
And I'm sure there's plenty of people doing jobs on minimum wage who would take great offence at you suggesting what they do is worthless :p

Originally Posted by Graham

In some areas, I think, most likely, yes.

Is this in america or the UK?
Are the LEA (UK) withholding funds for improvments within schools (including teaching improvements) because they have high non-white levels?

This is another Panto thread isn't it?


Where's Ramrod?
He's behind you.
Oh no he's not

Oops sorry substitute Xaccers for Ramrod(tho I'm sure he'll be along eventually)

Graham must you ALWAYS play devil's advocate?

Incog.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

This is another Panto thread isn't it?


Where's Ramrod?
He's behind you.
Oh no he's not

Oops sorry substitute Xaccers for Ramrod(tho I'm sure he'll be along eventually)

Graham must you ALWAYS play devil's advocate?

Incog.

Hey, Graham and I have been good, this is still quite civilised, and we do agree on some things, just look at the thread on Tonge

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Hey, Graham and I have been good, this is still quite civilised, and we do agree on some things, just look at the thread on Tonge

I am joking you know but you two do come across like an old married couple

Incog.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

It's that dilema isn't it I suppose? Blacks get targetted by the police because statistically they're the most likely to be criminals, which kinda makes more sense than targetting people who generally aren't known for being criminals,

It only makes sense to those who are more concerned about figures and targets than *PEOPLE*.

but this (and not quite sure how) causes them to not want to learn, and drives them to crime.

Sheer human bloody mindedness may make some people think "well, if your society is going to treat me like a criminal I'll bloody well be one!"

But they aren't criminals, and if they stick with it at McD's they can become an assistant manager in a few months, earning £18K, and not long later move up to manager on even more.

And what's Mickey D's rate of staff turnover...??

And I'm sure there's plenty of people doing jobs on minimum wage who would take great offence at you suggesting what they do is worthless :p

And I know several who *are* doing jobs on minimum wage who know damn well that what they are doing is worthless...!

Are the disadvantages of inner city schools due to racism?

I don't know about the USA, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some element of that. There certainly seems to be such in the UK eg

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1758/sw175814.htm

http://www.c.s.e.freeuk.com/EthnicMinoritiesLtr.htm

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Graham must you ALWAYS play devil's advocate?

Incognitas: I have explained this before in these forums, but I will do it again and as many times as I have to.

If you think that I am posting stuff simply to be argumentative or to play "devil's advocate" or to be deliberately contrary, then you have completely misunderstood me.

I do not do any of the above.

If there is an issue I feel strongly about I reserve the right to post comments on that subject, no matter that I may be in a minority of one and the rest of the world disagrees with me.

It's called Freedom of Speech.

PS I have just seen your message where you told Xaccers you were joking.

I'm not laughing.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Graham

It only makes sense to those who are more concerned about figures and targets than *PEOPLE*.

The thing is, if blacks in an area are the ones comitting the crimes, then the records will show that the majority of offences are comitted by them. That's not racist, that's just factual.
What would be racist is if the police concentrated on an ethnic group, but only a small fraction of those were actually comitting an offence, then the reason for targetting them is racial not crime prevention.
If there's an area where whites are the main criminals, I would expect the police to target white people more than other ethnic groups.

Originally Posted by Graham

Sheer human bloody mindedness may make some people think "well, if your society is going to treat me like a criminal I'll bloody well be one!"

What kind of person would do that? "I'm going to break the law because the police stopped me last week and asked me who I was"

Originally Posted by Graham

And what's Mickey D's rate of staff turnover...??

For managers, not much of a turnover. you've got to remember that most of the floor staff are part time student workers who are doing it for extra money. However, those who are doing it for a living quickly get rewarded.

Originally Posted by Graham

I don't know about the USA, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some element of that. There certainly seems to be such in the UK eg

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1758/sw175814.htm

http://www.c.s.e.freeuk.com/EthnicMinoritiesLtr.htm

Well the first one talks about the segregation of ethnic groups in bradford because the textile manufacturers who were finding housing for these workers decided to put them in groups rather than just mixing them up.
Was this because the employers were racist? Who knows, I can't really see how it could be. More likely that they just felt it would help people to live next to others from their same ethnic origins.

The second one talks about the problems with single faith schools, which by definition could be considered racist in that if you aren't of their faith you can't go.
Doesn't really cover rascist discrimination in state schools which the majority of kids in this country go to.

As for not laughing, want me to send incog over with her ticket stick?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

The thing is, if blacks in an area are the ones comitting the crimes, then the records will show that the majority of offences are comitted by them. That's not racist, that's just factual.

I don't deny that at all. The question is "What do you *do* about it"?

What kind of person would do that? "I'm going to break the law because the police stopped me last week and asked me who I was"

I doubt anyone would do it just because of that.

But if it was last week, and the week before, *and* last month *and* your friends *and* your relations and all just because you're black, perhaps you might think a little bit differently.

For managers, not much of a turnover. you've got to remember that most of the floor staff are part time student workers who are doing it for extra money.

And soon decide it isn't worth it.

Well the first one talks about the segregation of ethnic groups in bradford because the textile manufacturers who were finding housing for these workers decided to put them in groups rather than just mixing them up.
Was this because the employers were racist? Who knows, I can't really see how it could be. More likely that they just felt it would help people to live next to others from their same ethnic origins.

More likely because the Whites refused to live in the same communities as the heathen Blacks etc or because the employers frowned on "mixing the races" etc.