MERGED: God (all threads)

Originally Posted by towny

Don't you think there are rather too many coincidences for this to be a credible explanation? Floods, seas parting and crashing in again, plagues, cites destroyed, entire armies raised from the dead, a virgin gives birth to a baby ... the list is endless. Eventually, the cries of 'coincidence!', 'natural causes!' or 'it never happened!' really do start to sound tired.

Alternatively, from a slightly more sceptical point of view, all these claims of miracles stretch credibility further and further until occam's razor doesn't even need to be very sharp...

Originally Posted by Russ D

On that basis you'll never believe. It should be an act of faith. God will never give us 100% irrevocable proof because that would negate us chosing to believe in Him. Such evidence would then compel us to believe.

And even then, some idiot scientist would try and explain it all away.

No, some sensible scientist would want to check the validity of the proof, because that is what science is all about!

A huge booming voice, pillars of flames, dramatic scenes?

Ever watched the Wizard of Oz...?!

Originally Posted by Russ D

A lot of what was written in the OT was incorrect, one of the reasons for Jesus was to change many of the out-dated teachings which the Jews had held for thousands of years.

I'm sure the Jews will be pleased to hear that!

Of course the fact that the Bible was written *after* the event and has been re-written, re-translated had sections omitted for not being "religiously correct" etc isn't relevant to the discussion...

The 'threats' God made were due to us constantly disobeying and insulting Him. If your child was that rebelious, would you not discipline him/her?

Sodom and Gommorrah was "discipline"?

Sending bears to tear apart children is "discipline"??

Making people burn in hell for all eternity is "discipline"???

This must be some strange usage of the word I wasn't previously aware of.

[Theodoric]

Originally Posted by Graham

I'm sure the Jews will be pleased to hear that!

Of course the fact that the Bible was written *after* the event and has been re-written, re-translated had sections omitted for not being "religiously correct" etc isn't relevant to the discussion...



Sodom and Gommorrah was "discipline"?

Sending bears to tear apart children is "discipline"??

Making people burn in hell for all eternity is "discipline"???

This must be some strange usage of the word I wasn't previously aware of.

I've got to admit that eternal damnation is one of the things that make me feel that Christianity cannot be true. Let's get this straight. The age of the universe is about 15 billion years, an extremely long time. If you were punished for the age of the universe for every one of your evil deeds, for every one of your evil thoughts, then it would be, literally, and I mean literally, as nothing compared to eternity. Any god who could do something like that to someone whom he had created is infinitely evil, as far as I am concerned. Of course, if you wish to explain that eternity is not actually infinite, then I'm all ears . . .

[Russ]

Re: the last few posts. What people fail to realise is that trying to use science to prove/disprove something which science can never find answers for is folly.

I'm sure the Jews will be pleased to hear that!

I therefore assume you know little or nothing of the Bible? That's why they resented Jesus y'see....

Of course the fact that the Bible was written *after* the event and has been re-written, re-translated had sections omitted for not being "religiously correct" etc isn't relevant to the discussion...

Rewritten? I think not. The Bible is rarely described as the undisputed truth (shudder....) as anyone with a modicum of sense that anything written by man is prone to error, however as it was inspired by God, we get our general guidance from it. It's all down to personal interpritation.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Re: the last few posts. What people fail to realise is that trying to use science to prove/disprove something which science can never find answers for is folly.

That statement sounds pretty stupid.
Science does not try to prove/disprove things that science cannot find answers for. Science tries to prove/disprove those things in which man is searching for answers.
To assume that religions and their bibles are somehow excused from scientific examination by declaring the attempt as "folly" is rediculous and arrogant in the extreme.

[Russ]

That statement sounds pretty stupid

Science does not try to prove/disprove things that science cannot find answers for. Science tries to prove/disprove those things in which man is searching for answers

Christians don't search for these answers, we don't need them. If someone needs scientific answers or proof then they won't find any - the basis of Christianity is faith.

To assume that religions and their bibles are somehow excused from scientific examination by declaring the attempt as "folly" is rediculous and arrogant in the extreme.

I didn't say they were excused! I said that scientists will not find what they are looking for.

[Xaccers]

Just got into work and my you lot have been busy!
So excuse the quick recap

Russ, re the red mineral in the nile, it happens to this day as well.
re the Noah story, literary evidence shows when it entered hebrew culture, and that it was in messopotanian culture long before, ergo the hebrews adopted it from them (it can be pinpointed to when they were their slaves).

Again, these experts who come up with the explanations of how these "miracles" happened are not saying that they weren't caused by god.

Now, you said that many things in the OT are wrong or incorrect, but how can this be if the words were given to the writers from god?
You could say the writers being just men could have written it down wrong, so why didn't god correct them there and then rather than letting his people wander off down the wrong path?

Prepare to wince. In genisis, god says that to show you are one of his people you must be circumsised
Was this decision ever revoked? If so, what are we to make of a god who can't make his mind up?
If it wasn't revoked, then if you are uncircumcised, then you are not one of gods people and therefore not following his teachings, therefore failing him.

Can anyone put a case forward showing that (by his own actions) god is not a genocidal tyrant?

[Russ]

Russ, re the red mineral in the nile, it happens to this day as well.

I'm sure it does but in the Biblical incident, I believe it was blood.

re the Noah story, literary evidence shows when it entered hebrew culture, and that it was in messopotanian culture long before, ergo the hebrews adopted it from them (it can be pinpointed to when they were their slaves).

Yep, one point of view

Now, you said that many things in the OT are wrong or incorrect, but how can this be if the words were given to the writers from god?

No, the way it was acted upon was misinterprited. I don't see stories of Jesus stoning homosexuals.

Prepare to wince. In genisis, god says that to show you are one of his people you must be circumsised

I've got no problems there then

Was this decision ever revoked? If so, what are we to make of a god who can't make his mind up?

It's not that He can't make up His mind, it's just we continuously failed to live up to His standards. In any case IIRC that was for the Jews, not us Gentile-types

If it wasn't revoked, then if you are uncircumcised, then you are not one of gods people and therefore not following his teachings, therefore failing him.

To be a Christian, one must be born-again. As found in the NT, plain and simple!

Can anyone put a case forward showing that (by his own actions) god is not a genocidal tyrant?

He gave me a daughter.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Russ D

No, the way it was acted upon was misinterprited. I don't see stories of Jesus stoning homosexuals.

Isn't Leviticus quite exact in what the punishment should be?

Originally Posted by Russ

I've got no problems there then

Too much information!

Originally Posted by Russ

It's not that He can't make up His mind, it's just we continuously failed to live up to His standards. In any case IIRC that was for the Jews, not us Gentile-types
To be a Christian, one must be born-again. As found in the NT, plain and simple!

See this is the problem, some of the christian teachings are totally contradictory to the OT writings.
So he's changed his mind.

Originally Posted by Russ

He gave me a daughter.

Not wanting to be too crude Russ, but getting jiggy with your missus gave you your daughter.
Or are you saying god's a pervert into threesomes? (sorry, couldn't resist!)
If god is responsible for giving people children, then one could extrapolate that to mean that if people are infirtile, then it is because god does not want them to have children, which kinda backs up the image of him as not a nice person at all.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Christians don't search for these answers, we don't need them. If someone needs scientific answers or proof then they won't find any - the basis of Christianity is faith.



I didn't say they were excused! I said that scientists will not find what they are looking for.

So, you have no desire for a search for the empirical truth then? That's fine. You can say it is based on faith and can I say it is based on lies and we can all argue for another few thousand years.

In your terms, scientists will not find what they are looking for because their aims and your aims are apparently not the same (and in any case you believe you already have found what you are looking for so no proof is ever going to persaude you otherwise).

Science does not answer to an unquestionable beliefs. If it did then it wouldn't work and we would not be having this conversation on computers over this thing we call the wibbly-wobbly-web. Science merely searches for the most reasonable explanation based on experimentation and observation. There are no tricks or lies involved.

Anyway, there was a misspelling in the holy bible. It is actually "The Geek(scientist) shall inherit the earth". That was where it should have ended but they dragged it on for a few more chapters because the publishers didn't like the ending. Honest! I have the proof! Now, where did I put those papers.

[Russ]

So, you have no desire for a search for the empirical truth then? That's fine

On the contrary - I wanted the truth and in my mind I've found it.

In your terms, scientists will not find what they are looking for because their aims and your aims are apparently not the same (and in any case you believe you already have found what you are looking for so no proof is ever going to persaude you otherwise).

That's about the size of it - I've found my God and I'm sticking with him

You of course are welcome to believe whatever you chose

There are no tricks or lies involved

Neither are any in my faith.

Anyway, there was a misspelling in the holy bible. It is actually "The Geek(scientist) shall inherit the earth". That was where it should have ended but they dragged it on for a few more chapters because the publishers didn't like the ending. Honest! I have the proof! Now, where did I put those papers.

OK.....

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Russ D

On the contrary - I wanted the truth and in my mind I've found it.



That's about the size of it - I've found my God and I'm sticking with him

You of course are welcome to believe whatever you chose




Neither are any in my faith.




OK.....

I said empirical truth. NOT the "truth" as you see it in your singular mind.

Me? I don't believe in unproven storybooks and I don't care what you believe.

So, the whole argument for science not being able to prove/disprove things relies totally on whether you *think* it falls within your faith or not. It is never going to work in that case, but only because YOU won't accept it.
You are not prepared to give science the slightest chance because you are afraid that your whole mental world will come tumbling down (?).

[Russ]

I said empirical truth. NOT the "truth" as you see it in your singular mind.

Surely truth is subjective?

Me? I don't believe in unproven storybooks and I don't care what you believe.

And that is your right

So, the whole argument for science not being able to prove/disprove things relies totally on whether you *think* it falls within your faith or not. It is never going to work in that case, but only because YOU won't accept it.

You're not far off the, er truth

You are not prepared to give science the slightest chance because you are afraid that your whole mental world will come tumbling down (?).

I'm not afraid in the slightest. I've very interested in science, especially the power of the mind, I studied psychology for a while so it's not like I've jumped on the first idea that came by.

It's just I have made up my mind about God, I feel Him in my everyday life, I'm not harming anyone with my beliefs so I'll carry on til the end.

[Nor]

Can someone explain to me the whole thing about jesus being a jew, yet people believe in christianity and not judaism.

Personally, I was brought up a Catholic. I don't believe in it anymore though. I'd like to believe in God but I don't believe that the bible is the word of God. I like to think of God kinda like The Force in starwars. I just believe in living a good life, treating other people how I like to be treated myself, being kind, not causing anyone any harm. If there is a God I think thats all he'll expect of anyone, not to be living my life to the letter of the bible, castigating other peoples lifestyles, putting words before reason etc and all the rest.