MERGED: God (all threads) - Page 4

Russ · 23-01-2004, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

russ im not going to argue but unlike some] i do NOT need to shy away from any subject even if i dont agree with it, im not close minded, im open minded, if you cant tolerate someone questioning religion or any other subject i suggest you stop reading my threads.

now back on topic...

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else questioning my beliefs - on the contrary I welcome it. But what I DO object to is when one of us starts a thread on it you complain that you don't want to see the subject on here, yet IMO you are the one user who starts the most threads on it.

kronas · 23-01-2004, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else questioning my beliefs - on the contrary I welcome it. But what I DO object to is when one of us starts a thread on it you complain that you don't want to see the subject on here, yet IMO you are the one user who starts the most threads on it.

yes at one time at that time i made my comment that i did think there was too much, things died down, i havent personally started/read one in months......

im interested and willing to learn about religion itself.

basa · 23-01-2004, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1lv3r

Even if it was as simple as that basa, would you mind if someone judged you on something you'd made? .. ( eg: urgh, look at that hideous thing little Billy has made for his mum in pottery class.. isn't Billy a horrible little boy... see the logic there? )

Ah, but little Billy is a young fallible human. He is bound to make mistakes. God on the otherhand is supposed to be all powerful and infallible. Dropped a b*llock with the human race didn't he !! Oh sorry - he can't drop b*llocks, this must what he intended !!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1lv3r

As I said it isn't that simple, the bad things in our world are the result of sin, God made our world good and it's sin that tainted the creation... so even the flawed logic in my example is unjustified IMHO

As I understand it, god created satan and therefore sin. Why ? Does he have a warped sense of humour, is he 'testing' us and if so, again, why ?

I don't understand the logic if there is any. Everything according to religion is to suit 'god's purpose' and we are incapable of understanding. Not wrong there then !!

Sorry but I am a confirmed atheist.

Jon M · 23-01-2004, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

if you cant tolerate someone questioning religion or any other subject i suggest you stop reading my threads.

Reading the thread isn't an issue when you have a title that reads like a statement.
If you really are "questioning" as you claim.. why didn't you put a question mark at the end of the title?

You can see why the title as it stands is a bit inflamatory can't you.

Popeye · 23-01-2004, 16:08

yeah it's probably been either totally dreamt up or exagerrated into oblivion

it was probably a kid with a bucket looking for crabs and the story snowballed

as for Russ's comments how come one minute the 'god' is in the old testament threatening this that and the other and making veiled threats at killing kids etc

the next - in the new testament - reinvented as a peacemonger

Russ · 23-01-2004, 16:10

First of all, why do people start multiple threads on the same subject???????

I WILL be merging them....

Quote:

Ah, but little Billy is a young fallible human. He is bound to make mistakes. God on the otherhand is supposed to be all powerful and infallible. Dropped a b*llock with the human race didn't he !! Oh sorry - he can't drop b*llocks, this must what he intended !!!

NO HE DID NOT. He made us but it was US who chose to turn away from Him.

Quote:

As I understand it, god created satan and therefore sin. Why ? Does he have a warped sense of humour, is he 'testing' us and if so, again, why ?

Because it became aparent we wanted something else other than God's plan he allowed us to make a 2 way choice between good and evil. Would you have prefered to have been a mindless robot controlled by Him?

Quote:

If it could be 100% proven to me then I would believe. I wish that I did believe

On that basis you'll never believe. It should be an act of faith. God will never give us 100% irrevocable proof because that would negate us chosing to believe in Him. Such evidence would then compel us to believe.

And even then, some idiot scientist would try and explain it all away.

kronas · 23-01-2004, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1lv3r

Personally I think the two statements above are totally biblically accurate.

You got anything more than

to say kronie? or should I start posting stuff I dislike about atheism with a witty

to put my point across? I think I'd get a better reception if I put a balanced and factual arguement across instead don't you?

yes i do actually, can you tell me what he meant by 'help them' i assume he means change them to a diffarent lifestyle i think that should be left to the individual dont you ?

this is factual, i cant post the link as its copyrighted, and im not going to break that.......

and when did i post in this thread i dislike religion or anywhere else, i dont agree with it, but i wont stop anyone from joining any religion or anything
else for that matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

Kronas, even by your standards this is a particularly thinly-veiled attempt to start a church-bashing thread. Next time you decide to have a moan about religion coming into everything, I will take grim pleasure in posting a link back here.

you can think what you like i post anything i want to, you take it the wrong way thats your problem

Russ · 23-01-2004, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

yeah it's probably been either totally dreamt up or exagerrated into oblivion

it was probably a kid with a bucket looking for crabs and the story snowballed

...or possibly the greatest actions recorded by God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

as for Russ's comments how come one minute the 'god' is in the old testament threatening this that and the other and making veiled threats at killing kids etc

the next - in the new testament - reinvented as a peacemonger

(sigh) It certainly helps to be discussing this with someone who has a little more knowledge than "pub-level"...

A lot of what was written in the OT was incorrect, one of the reasons for Jesus was to change many of the out-dated teachings which the Jews had held for thousands of years. The 'threats' God made were due to us constantly disobeying and insulting Him.

If your child was that rebelious, would you not discipline him/her?

Jon M · 23-01-2004, 16:19

God didn't create sin, He created angels (Satan) and human beings with free will.. (back to this topic again).
Along with free will came the ability to either obey or disobey Him. Which is where sin gets it's meaning.. (disobeying God).
As we have free will, so too comes the responsibility for those actions.

I believe God does have a sense of humour.. but it isn't warped.. and certainly nothing to do with the evil in our world.

We certainly ARE capable of understanding..the only thing that prevents us is our sin.
Once we ask God to forgive us and believe in Jesus as our Saviour from our justified punishment, then all barriers to knowing and understanding what God reveals to us are removed.

23-01-2004, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

With respect, the people who came up with those theories were not there at the time to witness these incidents. There may be 'literary evidence' that Noah's story was adopted by the Hebrews but we also have literary evidence that it happened - it's called the Bible.

Just because it is written in a book doesn`t make it true. The majority of the bible was even written contemporaneously to the events that are described in it. So you have a book written on a basis of recollections, with no guarantee that all of those recollections are accurate, by people with an agenda to promote.

Obviously I cannot stand up and state categorically that none of the contents of the bible are true because, as you point out, we weren`t there to witness the events. But to argue that it must be true because it is written in a book is as equally flawed an argument as you were not there to witness the events yourself.

23-01-2004, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1lv3r

God didn't create sin, He created angels (Satan) and human beings with free will.. (back to this topic again).
Along with free will came the ability to either obey or disobey Him. Which is where sin gets it's meaning.. (disobeying God).

If we are to follow that argument, sin could not exist without free will, God created free will which provided the underlying mechanism for sin to exist, therefore God created sin.

23-01-2004, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

If your child was that rebelious, would you not discipline him/her?

Surely context is critical in answering that question? Rebelling against an oppressive state in the cause of freedom would be different to rebelling against a justified law simply for the sake of it.

Russ · 23-01-2004, 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Just because it is written in a book doesn`t make it true. The majority of the bible was even written contemporaneously to the events that are described in it. So you have a book written on a basis of recollections, with no guarantee that all of those recollections are accurate, by people with an agenda to promote.

Yes but when you have accounts of these actions from other sources not connected to the Bible (such as Augustus Caeser's diaries, hardly a religion man yet wrote a LOT about jesus) it tends to lend a lot more weight to the argument.

Quote:

Rebelling against an oppressive state in the cause of freedom would be different to rebelling against a justified law simply for the sake of it.

Who said they rebelled against an opressive state?

23-01-2004, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

Yes but when you have accounts of these actions from other sources not connected to the Bible (such as Augustus Caeser's diaries, hardly a religion man yet wrote a LOT about jesus) it tends to lend a lot more weight to the argument.

Again just writings, so they do not provide objective proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

Who said they rebelled against an opressive state?

My apologies, I originally interpreted you comment in too broad a context.

Russ · 23-01-2004, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Again just writings, so they do not provide objective proof.

Yeah I know, I'm not trying to give you objective proof because that's not what Christianity is about.