Are 'warez' really theft?

[Sociable]

When it comes to Games the situation is a little different I think as the downloaders fall into two distinct groups.

The first are those who never do and never will pay if they can avoid it. They are stealing under the original deffinition "with intent to permanently deprive".

The second group are kids trying out the game before they buy and many do then go out and buy the original not just for the on-line stuff but also because they want to own the original game complete with packaging etc. This hardly meets the usual deffinition of theft.

In fact this situation mirrors a lot of what happens with Movie downloading too. If people like the movie they will most often actually go to see it at a cinema as well as downloading a copy.

The Movie industry themselves have adopted a more philosophical approach to the problem by accepting that at least in part the download activity actually acts as free promotion. (The download files are not theft but just very very long trailers for the movie) LOL

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Bifta

Not sure if that's sarcasm but that does sum up how I feel about it, it's up to the individual what they do, if they get caught and fined then they can't blame anyone but themselves. However, people that moan about new anti-theft measures in software or complain about Palladium or the DMCA saying it's an infringement of civil liberties really need to take a step back and realise why they're introduced.

I agree with you about the blame

And about people complaining that the software companies are fighting back with technology, which I think the software companies should do

I don't download mp3's, but then I also don't buy many CD's, so I can't really comment much on that side of things. I do feel CDs are not good value for money.

I'm not really into pirated films either, I'd rather see a film I think will be good in the cinema.
When I have downloaded films, it's either been so that I can watch them while I'm working nights and either my DVD of the film is stuck up north, or its a film I'm thinking of getting and if it's good, I'll go out and buy it, if it's not (like the hulk) I'll save my money.

[kronas]

doownloading copyright material is an offence,under the law,the way the RIAA have handled there side of the anti downloading brigade has been one that has affected many peoples pockets,ive mentioned this before when i first got in to av i liked the first single which was closley followed by the second single,and then i looked in to obtaining the album as i have NEVER liked an artists album fully EVER so i 'obtained' the album listened to it actually liked it and bought it, because i will support a good artist i did the same with evanescence, i have the cd next to me i bought that piracy is not all bad,its just people who dont buy and download which is bad......

[Xaccers]

And then there's those who download and sell...

[Jon T]

I have used p2p apps to download copywrighted material simply because I could not afford to buy it, if I had not done so, I would not be in the Job i'm in now as my knowledge of software would not be wide enough for me to do my Job(IT Technican/Assistant Supervisor).

I have no problems recognising that what I have done is illegal and wrong, but, if it means the difference between £80 a fortnight job seekers allowance and £200+ week in my present job, I would have to say that i would do it again.

I am slowly starting to buy most of the programs that I have downloaded over the years, and some of them we have site-licensed copies of a work that I can legally use.

IMHO, this is why it is so hard to get a start in the IT Support industry of this country, because everwhere wants you to have experience of everything, and nowhere is willing to provide in cheaply, this is where p2p/downoading can come in useful.

You just have to make sure that when you have the money to spare, that you buy of legally obtain anything that you are using.

[Xaccers]

A very good point made by Jon.

Would MS have such a large support base (or even user base) if it wasn't for free copies of their OS's and applications going round?

Has it hindered the development of other OS's such as linux?
Would more people have gotten behind linux for it's low cost, if MS software wasn't so redily available for free?

Theft: The act or an instance of stealing.
Stealing: To take without right or permission.

I think that pretty much covers it. There is no argument about whether you would not have bought it because you cannot afford it or any other excuses.
Theft of software is stealing - taking something that you don't have a right to take. Simple as that.

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by pem

Theft: The act or an instance of stealing.
Stealing: To take without right or permission.

I think that pretty much covers it. There is no argument about whether you would not have bought it because you cannot afford it or any other excuses.
Theft of software is stealing - taking something that you don't have a right to take. Simple as that.

As I pointed out earlier, the "Legal" definition is a little more precise as it adds the "intention to permanently deprive". This is why the so called "Joy Riding" needed a special offence to be created to cover it as the existing theft laws did not apply.

Semantics I know, but in this case it does create the grey areas I alluded to in my earlier post.

[DrAwesome]

you can copy favourite music tracks to an xbox and while your playing your favourite game you can listen to the tracks you have copied is M$ in breach of copyright by allowing owners to do this, i have looked over the paper work that you get with an xbox and there is no licence that refers to copying any of your favourite music tracks to the xbox hard drive.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by DrAwesome

you can copy favourite music tracks to an xbox and while your playing your favourite game you can listen to the tracks you have copied is M$ in breach of copyright by allowing owners to do this, i have looked over the paper work that you get with an xbox and there is no licence that refers to copying any of your favourite music tracks to the xbox hard drive.

No MS wouldn't be. You would however.
You aren't even allowed to copy a CD to tape to listen to in the car!

The thing is, when you copy something, you aren't taking the original.

[Slef]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

The thing is, when you copy something, you aren't taking the original.

even the cd or dvd supplied to anybody who buys a programme / film or software does not get the original !! All that is provided is a copy anyway !! The original will be locked away in a vault somewhere. !!

[Sociable]

An intersting aspect of this whole debate is, of course, the part that hardware manufacturers and Internet providers have played and will continue to play.

Hands up anyone that would have brought a cassette recorder if it were not for its ability to copy from radio records CD's etc etc.

Same applies to ISP's just how many people would sign up for broadband if it was not possible to gain access to content and download it.

As for MicroSuck I have no sympathy for them as IMHO the anti-trust cases should have been dealt with by the courts making them upgrade all customers who paid for earlier versions that didn't do what they were meant to FOC.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Sociable

An intersting aspect of this whole debate is, of course, the part that hardware manufacturers and Internet providers have played and will continue to play.

Hands up anyone that would have brought a cassette recorder if it were not for its ability to copy from radio records CD's etc etc.

Same applies to ISP's just how many people would sign up for broadband if it was not possible to gain access to content and download it.

As for MicroSuck I have no sympathy for them as IMHO the anti-trust cases should have been dealt with by the courts making them upgrade all customers who paid for earlier versions that didn't do what they were meant to FOC.

Have to agree, Sociable. In the 'bad old days', the software industry bleated about floppy disk piracy but manufacturers still brought out hardware and software that could by-pass protection on other companies' disks and used that as a selling point.

We were told that software piracy would end when CDs came in but what happened..the hardware manufacturers sold CD writers to the public allowing piracy to continue and the same thing looks likely when DVDs replace CDs as the common form of storage.

We were also told that costs would come down but that hasn't been the case and games when they first come out are still very expensive. This doesn't excuse people from downloading games, music etc but it does give an insight into the 'ripped off' feeling that the public is experiencing.

As for Microsoft,the number of bugs in their software surely must make it 'not of merchantable quality'. I'd love to see one version of Windows that doesn't have a bug or security vulnerability in it. I'd also like to see one OS that is totally backward compatible with DOS 6.22 so I can play all the old games, which my current 'more advanced' machine can't play.

There is also another issue.If I own a much loved music CD/vinyl/tape/game that is damaged and it is no longer being produced how do I replace it?There are a lot of music and games that are no longer available to buy even though I/we do WANT to buy them and the original group/company are no longer available to buy them from.IF I could find a way(and I do sometimes exchange/buy from others who do have these items to sell)to actually legally buy the products I want,I would be more than delighted to do so.

Incog.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by ntluser

We were also told that costs would come down but that hasn't been the case and games when they first come out are still very expensive. This doesn't excuse people from downloading games, music etc but it does give an insight into the 'ripped off' feeling that the public is experiencing.

PC games used to be about £45, now they range from £15 to £45 with most new ones around £30, so prices have come down alot as PC's have gotten more popular.