Hillsborough Report

[Vieil Homme]

Originally Posted by martyh

I'm not saying that the police did no wrong ,all i'm saying is bear in mind that other parties did wrong by the fans as well ,so by all means shout at people just make sure you are shouting at the right people and remember that the police probably had no training for this type of incident as it hadn't happened on this scale before and most of the police who where there where probably in just as much shock as the fans where some may have even had friends or family at the match

I hope they were shocked but it never stopped them from filling the book ( where Police officer make sure they are all telling the same story..note the word story)

These notebooks would have been referred to when giving evidence. This evidence was accepted as the truth when we now know it was a pack of lies.

From the Guardian 16th Sept

We now know that lives, many of them young, were lost on 15 April 1989, because of an unsafe football ground and the negligence of senior officers, camouflaged by the subsequent perjury of dozens of police and emergency services staff. It beggars belief that blood samples were taken from the victims, one as young as 10, to scrabble for evidence that alcohol had fuelled the tragedy. The truth was just visible in the inquiry of Lord Chief Justice Taylor, soon after the disaster; however, much of the media and many politicians preferred the fabricated "evidence" that the behaviour of drunken, ticketless louts caused the loss of life. That calumny has survived two decades, reinforced by snobbery, and contempt for working-class football supporters whom it was alleged had brought it upon themselves.

Regarding the request that the inquest being re-opened so the findings can be changed from accidental death. At the end of the day even with the false statements from the police it is still a tragic accident.

Originally Posted by Vieil Homme

Regarding the request that the inquest being re-opened so the findings can be changed from accidental death. At the end of the day even with the false statements from the police it is still a tragic accident.

As my local coroner used to say, "an accident is the unforeseen outcome of a deliberate act." Personally I think he used to interpret that a tad widely (I sat through far more inquests than I would have liked, as a young reporter).

The Hillsborough families have quite a strong argument that the failures in crowd control and disaster management were so great that the eventual outcome was by no means unforseeable. They're not going to get an unlawful killing verdict but a narrative verdict finding negligence on the part of some of those involved is quite achievable IMO.

[Russ]

I'm aware my interpretation of some legal jargon is my own and may not relate to actual law however I do not see Hillsborough as an 'accident' in any way. My interpretation of that word is an incident to which nobody can be directly blamed. I see an 'accident' as "one of those things" or "couldn't be helped".

From the limited information I've read about April 15th 1989 I'd say the whole thing could have been avoided.

They had many warnings this could happen as well, both Sheffield Wednesday and the FA. The FA refused to sanction a change of venues, United had offered the use of Old Trafford even, but they ignored all requests.

[Vieil Homme]

Originally Posted by Russ

I'm aware my interpretation of some legal jargon is my own and may not relate to actual law however I do not see Hillsborough as an 'accident' in any way. My interpretation of that word is an incident to which nobody can be directly blamed. I see an 'accident' as "one of those things" or "couldn't be helped".

From the limited information I've read about April 15th 1989 I'd say the whole thing could have been avoided.

I think we are falling into the trap as if this happened today. Then I would agree it would not be an accident but the event happened in 1989 when the police communication was far from good. Today the Police have CCTV and a digital closed radio system.

We don't know the truth because the truth has been covered by lies to cover mistakes made by senior officers on the day who had a few moments to give an order to open a gate.

Accident = an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. Yes I know that big word death is missing.

Originally Posted by Vieil Homme

Accident = an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. Yes I know that big word death is missing.

We have manslaughter laws, not sure if they would apply in this case. Corporate manslaughter? Seems unjustified since the responsibility applies to many organisations. However it's far more serious than an accident. Serious failings occurred that day, not least the failure of the police. The police who helped cover this up, the senior officers, should face justice.

[Vieil Homme]

Originally Posted by Damien

We have manslaughter laws, not sure if they would apply in this case. Corporate manslaughter? Seems unjustified since the responsibility applies to many organisations. However it's far more serious than an accident. Serious failings occurred that day, not least the failure of the police. The police who helped cover this up, the senior officers, should face justice.

Yes I totaly agree but as I have said this before I didn't want to keep reating myself

From what I understand the officer made a bad judgment call. A lot of people want his head on a block. Me I would be hapy with those who took part in the cover up should be put before the courts. There I'v said it again......

Originally Posted by Peter_

It was a match between Nottingham Forest and Liverpool so rather unlikely to involve anyone from Sheffield.

.

Played at Sheffield Wednesdays ground ,otherwise known as Hilsborough ,a ground known to have safety issues .

You do not need training just compassion and a grip on reality when you see people being crushed and dying in front of you plus you need humanity which these people left at the gate.

Know a lot about that do you? how would you know what goes through a young coppers mind when faced with multiple deaths for the first time

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by martyh

Know a lot about that do you? how would you know what goes through a young coppers mind when faced with multiple deaths for the first time

They were not all young so do not play the young card as it does not wash, they are supposed to be trained officers so age does not come into it, gutless comes to mind though.

Are you saying that all policemen should be older people with knowledge of the world then as oddly that does not even apply to the army.


As above compassion and humanity was needed on that day but the police just looked at a fence and in their eyes the dying were not people but objects that needed to be fenced in.

We still require justice and until justice has been done do not expect anyone affected to let up over this tragic event until justice prevails.

Originally Posted by Peter_

They were not all young so do not play the young card as it does not wash, they are supposed to be trained officers so age does not come into it, gutless comes to mind though.

Calling people you don't even know 'gutless' is bang out of order they do things that you don't have the guts to do ,You have no clue what you are talking about and how even witnessing such a tragedy affects some people never mind being part of it .
I have just watched a report on ITV news about a young copper(at the time)who submitted a truthful report saying exactly what happened but all the parts that threw the senior officers into disrepute were crossed out by the senior officers of the time . You really need to stop this undirected hatred for the police in general and direct your anger at the right people ,you are starting to look like a vindictive fool

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by martyh

Calling people you don't even know 'gutless' is bang out of order they do things that you don't have the guts to do ,You have no clue what you are talking about and how even witnessing such a tragedy affects some people never mind being part of it .
I have just watched a report on ITV news about a young copper(at the time)who submitted a truthful report saying exactly what happened but all the parts that threw the senior officers into disrepute were crossed out by the senior officers of the time . You really need to stop this undirected hatred for the police in general and direct your anger at the right people ,you are starting to look like a vindictive fool

So calling someone gutless that looks on as people die in front of them is wrong, somehow i do not think so as that is what they did even confronted with begging and the screams of the crowd, to stand back when confronted with scene and to do nothing shows what kind of people were wearing a uniform on that day.

I would be trying to help if I was confronted with that scene, did you know that victims begged them to open the gates but the officers turned their backs on them and only they could open them.

So rather than giving me a rep for telling the truth get real and read up the facts and stop making foolish assumptions and calling people fools when it is people like you that still believe the police version of events, so stop being a south yorkshire police loving fanboy fool.

You can tell by your attitude who you believe and sadly the are still many like you trying to protect those spineless illegitimate policemen who watched innocent people die.

It will be easy to find out which officers did not alter their statements and possibly it may just be the senior officers prosecuted but those officers still have to live with themselves for watching innocent people die, not a memory that I would want.

I have witnessed massacres not accidents but deliberate acts of mass killing from as little as six hundred metres away and orders prevented me from doing what i thought i should have done what was stopping those coppers that day and if it too was orders who gave them and lets be having them in the dock. Marty whilst i do not share Peters general dislike (lets try and keep it polite) for the police you have got to understand that for many if not all the hillsborough familys and fans there that day the behaviour and actions of the police were shameful and did come across as uncaring and gutless for want of a better term.

Hillsborough is a damn deep wound that unless you were there or were directly affected by it you cannot begin to grasp a whole range of emotions and feelings and for those people a decent degree of latitude should be afforded rather then constant criticism and i am talking about what i have read on other forums not just this one.

Originally Posted by Peter_

So calling someone gutless that looks on as people die in front of them is wrong, somehow i do not think so as that is what they did even confronted with begging and the screams of the crowd, to stand back when confronted with scene and to do nothing shows what kind of people were wearing a uniform on that day.

I would be trying to help if I was confronted with that scene, did you know that victims begged them to open the gates but the officers turned their backs on them and only they could open them.

So rather than giving me a rep for telling the truth get real and read up the facts and stop making foolish assumptions and calling people fools when it is people like you that still believe the police version of events, so stop being a south yorkshire police loving fanboy fool.

You can tell by your attitude who you believe and sadly the are still many like you trying to protect those spineless illegitimate policemen who watched innocent people die.

It will be easy to find out which officers did not alter their statements and possibly it may just be the senior officers prosecuted but those officers still have to live with themselves for watching innocent people die, not a memory that I would want.

You really don't have a clue how shock and inexperience show themselves do you .Your reaction is to call a young inexperienced copper who has just watched a man die gutless because he cannot do anything other than stand in shock at what he has just seen .I hope your attitude is not typical of most other scousers affected by this tragedy as any sympathy will rapidly evaporate .

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I have witnessed massacres not accidents but deliberate acts of mass killing from as little as six hundred metres away and orders prevented me from doing what i thought i should have done what was stopping those coppers that day and if it too was orders who gave them and lets be having them in the dock. Marty whilst i do not share Peters general dislike (lets try and keep it polite) for the police you have got to understand that for many if not all the hillsborough familys and fans there that day the behaviour and actions of the police were shameful and did come across as uncaring and gutless for want of a better term.

Hillsborough is a damn deep wound that unless you were there or were directly affected by it you cannot begin to grasp a whole range of emotions and feelings and for those people a decent degree of latitude should be afforded rather then constant criticism and i am talking about what i have read on other forums not just this one.

Actually the were many police who helped carry the dead and injured and they can be seen in the footage and photographs on that day, it is the ones who stood doing nothing that gets the vitriol and anger and quite rightly so those so called men are the ones who get the brunt of my anger.

I doubt that a single one would ever admit to standing there watching people die when a simple act of compassion such as the opening of a gate could have saved people or prevented injury, as above I would not want those images haunting my psyche for the rest of my life.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I have witnessed massacres not accidents but deliberate acts of mass killing from as little as six hundred metres away and orders prevented me from doing what i thought i should have done what was stopping those coppers that day and if it too was orders who gave them and lets be having them in the dock. Marty whilst i do not share Peters general dislike (lets try and keep it polite) for the police you have got to understand that for many if not all the hillsborough familys and fans there that day the behaviour and actions of the police were shameful and did come across as uncaring and gutless for want of a better term.

Hillsborough is a damn deep wound that unless you were there or were directly affected by it you cannot begin to grasp a whole range of emotions and feelings and for those people a decent degree of latitude should be afforded rather then constant criticism and i am talking about what i have read on other forums not just this one.

Maybe Peter and his ilk need to stop and think .They have been asking for justice for years ,now they have a chance ,so they need to make sure that the justice they want applies to all and that includes the innocent police who didn't know their reports had been altered ,simply shouting "lock 'em up" and calling them gutless is bang out of order