1GB Cap Letter!!!!

[samuel]

Originally Posted by obvious

Our friend Ian thinks he can change human nature while holding back the tide. He'll probably go on to prove that black is white and get himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

You lot just can't take it when someone tries to point out that downloading things is sometimes illegal....
He is trying to prove a point, yes, but as usual anyone who tries to do the right thing in this world is put down by the majority who can't see that a) business is business and companies will increase prices to survive and b) will also have to impose caps and limits to those who abuse the system. As usual, it is a few inconsiderate people who spoil it for the majority who do obey the law and follow rules...

[obvious]

blah inconsiderate blah spoil blah waaahh blah rules

It might have escaped your notice but anyone who can download at full speed for a period of time is proving that their local network is not congested.

[jonifen]

Originally Posted by obvious

It might have escaped your notice but anyone who can download at full speed for a period of time is proving that their local network is not congested.

never thought of that!

At home, if I'm downloading anything and the kids go on miniclip at the same time, the download speed decreases slightly for the time that the page loads on their screen.
I would imagine (my thoughts induced by the comment by "obvious" above) as UBRs will only have a certain amount of bandwidth available to them that the same thing would happen.

[obvious]

Originally Posted by jonifen

never thought of that!

At home, if I'm downloading anything and the kids go on miniclip at the same time, the download speed decreases slightly for the time that the page loads on their screen.
I would imagine (my thoughts induced by the comment by "obvious" above) as UBRs will only have a certain amount of bandwidth available to them that the same thing would happen.

True - when a UBR is saturated then every user will receive a proportionately degraded service. If user x is not getting a degraded download speed then neither is anybody else.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by obvious

True - when a UBR is saturated then every user will receive a proportionately degraded service. If user x is not getting a degraded download speed then neither is anybody else.

I agree with what you are saying to an extent though individual users may have tweaked their systems to cope better with the situation. NTL have been quite good at making sure that users do not suffer the effects of contention. There are quite a number of users who think that if they are not getting the full speed of their connection that there is a problem that must be fixed. Any contended service is bound to have periods when degradation of speed starts to occur. The problem is that as speeds get higher and higher it is more difficult and costly to prevent this degradation in speed. BT have made this point several times during the run up to their 8Mbps trials. They say that customers who are lucky enough to get the full 8Mbps during quiet times will be lucky to get above 2Mbps peak time.

[dirtydog]

So ian@huth are you gonna tell us whether you've ever downloaded an mp3?

Fwiw my bandwidth is very rarely maxed out and it's highly doubtful that my average 2gig a day usage, spread throughout 24 hours, has any negative impact on local ntl users.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by dirtydog

So ian@huth are you gonna tell us whether you've ever downloaded an mp3?

Fwiw my bandwidth is very rarely maxed out and it's highly doubtful that my average 2gig a day usage, spread throughout 24 hours, has any negative impact on local ntl users.

No, I never have downloaded a mp3 legal or illegal. All my software is fully legal and I was going to say paid for but a lot of it was donated by companies I have worked in conjunction with and suppliers I have dealt with. I have a lot of friends whose livliehoods have been affected by internet piracy which is why I am so against it. I am not alone in my stance on the subject but am probably one of the few who has continued to express their views. Many have given up trying as the same things have been said time and time again over the years on here. We all know the score on usage patterns and we all know that nothing said on here is going to significantly alter NTLs (and other ISPs) thinking on the subject.

[0 morgan 0]

Look NTL are in this for the money, to be honest they have rear ended themselves:

I'm on the 2mb service and here my daily stats:

Uploaded(1.83 GB/Day)Downloaded(8.75 GB/Day)


Now according to NTL if i abuse the service i'll be asked to upgrade (or do one of the alternatives) now if i was to upgrade i'd be download 1/3 more than im currently downloading now. NTL purposely put the speeds up to make them look better in the eyes of the competition. As more people are joining the network there congesting it further. The increased speed and increased users is the ultimate reason why the NTL network is congested (not because people abusing the network).

If NTL wernt so greedy to get new customers they'd of realised that decreasing the prices of broadband and keeping the speeds the same would of been a much more logical solution. Yet in this day and age its figures which count and users want to have the best (the fastest) service. NTL have take advantage of this... if anyone is to blaim for the congestion (which there doesnt appear to be any) then its NTL themselves.

The best example of this greed is NTLs 1mb upgrade which is less of a service than the 300k service. By offering 1MB for a low price NTL can stay in the competition however by offering 1MB they have limited it. However NTL make this out to be the better deal when in fact NTL are saving money on people upgrading to 1mb because over all they'll be using less bandwidth from the network (yet paying the same price.)

We've been with NTL since day one (in wales) and we pay a large sum a month for digital, broadband and a phone service of which we've been greatly happy with. Unfortunately the only service keeping us with NTL is the broadband and if it need be and we ever get any crap off NTL of course its going to be bye bye NTL and we'll go back to Sky + BT and find an ADSL (something i really dont want to do).

I could use stronger words to describe what NTL are doing to its customers on broadband its ultimately a sly tactic to make more money off new customers tempting by what looks like a good broadband offer...

[Toto]

Originally Posted by ian@huth

No, I never have downloaded a mp3 legal or illegal. All my software is fully legal and I was going to say paid for but a lot of it was donated by companies I have worked in conjunction with and suppliers I have dealt with. I have a lot of friends whose livliehoods have been affected by internet piracy which is why I am so against it. I am not alone in my stance on the subject but am probably one of the few who has continued to express their views. Many have given up trying as the same things have been said time and time again over the years on here. We all know the score on usage patterns and we all know that nothing said on here is going to significantly alter NTLs (and other ISPs) thinking on the subject.

Internet related piracy is an issue (illegal distribution of copyright protected material), and it can directly affect ISP's, and also impact on the livelyhood of honest, hard working people.

Whether we download the odd mp3, or whole software packages, there is no argument that can justify such actions, and we only have ourselves to blame when those who mimic our own bad habits spoil the services for other people.


__________________

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

Look NTL are in this for the money, to be honest they have rear ended themselves:

I'm on the 2mb service and here my daily stats:

Uploaded(1.83 GB/Day)Downloaded(8.75 GB/Day)


Now according to NTL if i abuse the service i'll be asked to upgrade (or do one of the alternatives) now if i was to upgrade i'd be download 1/3 more than im currently downloading now. NTL purposely put the speeds up to make them look better in the eyes of the competition. As more people are joining the network there congesting it further. The increased speed and increased users is the ultimate reason why the NTL network is congested (not because people abusing the network).

If NTL wernt so greedy to get new customers they'd of realised that decreasing the prices of broadband and keeping the speeds the same would of been a much more logical solution. Yet in this day and age its figures which count and users want to have the best (the fastest) service. NTL have take advantage of this... if anyone is to blaim for the congestion (which there doesnt appear to be any) then its NTL themselves.

The best example of this greed is NTLs 1mb upgrade which is less of a service than the 300k service. By offering 1MB for a low price NTL can stay in the competition however by offering 1MB they have limited it. However NTL make this out to be the better deal when in fact NTL are saving money on people upgrading to 1mb because over all they'll be using less bandwidth from the network (yet paying the same price.)

We've been with NTL since day one (in wales) and we pay a large sum a month for digital, broadband and a phone service of which we've been greatly happy with. Unfortunately the only service keeping us with NTL is the broadband and if it need be and we ever get any crap off NTL of course its going to be bye bye NTL and we'll go back to Sky + BT and find an ADSL (something i really dont want to do).

I could use stronger words to describe what NTL are doing to its customers on broadband its ultimately a sly tactic to make more money off new customers tempting by what looks like a good broadband offer...

I'd get your self ready for a stern letter from ntl with those kind of stats, if they are to be believed.

To be honest, if you did leave ntl, the other folks in your region would probably see an improvement in their broadband service.

[0 morgan 0]

Originally Posted by Toto

__________________

I'd get your self ready for a stern letter from ntl with those kind of stats, if they are to be believed.

To be honest, if you did leave ntl, the other folks in your region would probably see an improvement in their broadband service.

(sorry if i get the capitalisation wrong on the following measurements im sure you can understand it)

Look 1gb a day is 1024000 kbytes which is 1024mbytes which is 1gb

24hrs in a day x 60 minutes an hour x 60seconds a minute... = 86400 secs/day

1024000 divided by 86400 = 11.8kb/s

So to use our 1gb cap a day we might as well have a 150k connection and if we were to use this 150k 24/7 we'd still go over our 1gb a day limit.

LOL find this ironic? you still want to believe the crap NTL feed you. There broadband speed is a gimik to introduce new customers there cap is an insult to exsisting customers. The last letter i had from NTL was to tell me i was abusing the 56k service and that i should upgrade to the new broadband service that will be introduced soon...

Anyway as stated before if my network was congested the speed would be evenly spread... heres some more maths for you

If my street has a limit of 10mb for the whole street and there are 20 2mb users. If all 20 users were downloading at a max speed at one time we'd all suffer the same congestion limit of 0.5mb (512k) there would be no one downloading faster than anyone else. Yet again your arguement is flawed.

Thanks for your response anyway...

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

Look NTL are in this for the money, to be honest they have rear ended themselves:

I'm on the 2mb service and here my daily stats:

Uploaded(1.83 GB/Day)Downloaded(8.75 GB/Day)


Now according to NTL if i abuse the service i'll be asked to upgrade (or do one of the alternatives) now if i was to upgrade i'd be download 1/3 more than im currently downloading now. NTL purposely put the speeds up to make them look better in the eyes of the competition. As more people are joining the network there congesting it further. The increased speed and increased users is the ultimate reason why the NTL network is congested (not because people abusing the network).

If NTL wernt so greedy to get new customers they'd of realised that decreasing the prices of broadband and keeping the speeds the same would of been a much more logical solution. Yet in this day and age its figures which count and users want to have the best (the fastest) service. NTL have take advantage of this... if anyone is to blaim for the congestion (which there doesnt appear to be any) then its NTL themselves.

The best example of this greed is NTLs 1mb upgrade which is less of a service than the 300k service. By offering 1MB for a low price NTL can stay in the competition however by offering 1MB they have limited it. However NTL make this out to be the better deal when in fact NTL are saving money on people upgrading to 1mb because over all they'll be using less bandwidth from the network (yet paying the same price.)

We've been with NTL since day one (in wales) and we pay a large sum a month for digital, broadband and a phone service of which we've been greatly happy with. Unfortunately the only service keeping us with NTL is the broadband and if it need be and we ever get any crap off NTL of course its going to be bye bye NTL and we'll go back to Sky + BT and find an ADSL (something i really dont want to do).

I could use stronger words to describe what NTL are doing to its customers on broadband its ultimately a sly tactic to make more money off new customers tempting by what looks like a good broadband offer...

Although you have all three services from NTL and are threatening to move them all elsewhere if they limit your excessive use they will probably be pleased if you do so. It probably costs them more to supply your services than you are paying them so it will be seen as a gain inprofit rather than the loss of a customer.

What NTL are doing to their customers is providing them with a faster service at no extra cost which most of them will greatly appreciate. It is a very good offer if you are a user but maybe not if you are an abuser.

[Toto]

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

(sorry if i get the capitalisation wrong on the following measurements im sure you can understand it)

Look 1gb a day is 1024000 kbytes which is 1024mbytes which is 1gb

24hrs in a day x 60 minutes an hour x 60seconds a minute... = 86400 secs/day

1024000 divided by 86400 = 11.8kb/s

So to use our 1gb cap a day we might as well have a 150k connection and if we were to use this 150k 24/7 we'd still go over our 1gb a day limit.

LOL find this ironic? you still want to believe the crap NTL feed you. There broadband speed is a gimik to introduce new customers there cap is an insult to exsisting customers. The last letter i had from NTL was to tell me i was abusing the 56k service and that i should upgrade to the new broadband service that will be introduced soon...

Anyway as stated before if my network was congested the speed would be evenly spread... heres some more maths for you

If my street has a limit of 10mb for the whole street and there are 20 2mb users. If all 20 users were downloading at a max speed at one time we'd all suffer the same congestion limit of 0.5mb (512k) there would be no one downloading faster than anyone else. Yet again your arguement is flawed.

Thanks for your response anyway...

Whether the network is congested or not, your stats would show up on ntl's monitoring systems, and regardless of bandwidth utilisation by your whole street your use is excesive, and in breach of ntl's own usage guidelines.

Math has nothing to do with this, you are exceeding the 1Gb per day usage guideline, by your own admission. You should therefore not be surprised if you do receive a letter from ntl's abuse team............oh, and try convincing them that you will move your services elsewhere, I'd imagine that wouldn't cut any ice with them.

[cookie_365]

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

NTL purposely put the speeds up to make them look better in the eyes of the competition.

Shocking behaviour! You'd think they'd put the speeds down to make them look worse in the eyes of the competition, wouldn't you? Though I do agree with you that it looks suspiciously like the speeds went up on purpose. Last time the speeds went up it was because someone dropped a mug of coffee into one of the UBRs and it accidentally and unexpectedly caused the bandwidth to double.

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

The increased speed and increased users is the ultimate reason why the NTL network is congested (not because people abusing the network).

...

if anyone is to blaim for the congestion (which there doesnt appear to be any) then its NTL themselves.

So is there congestion or isn't there? Or haven't you got a clue?

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

If NTL wernt so greedy to get new customers

They want new customers? Who do they think they are? Some kind of business?

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

The best example of this greed is NTLs 1mb upgrade which is less of a service than the 300k service. By offering 1MB for a low price NTL can stay in the competition however by offering 1MB they have limited it. However NTL make this out to be the better deal when in fact NTL are saving money on people upgrading to 1mb because over all they'll be using less bandwidth from the network (yet paying the same price.)

How dare they! Here you are, using a service you're happy with, then evil old NTL say 'you can have this alternative service if you want - but just in case the new one isn't right for you we'll keep you on the existing one unless you ask us to change'. I demand that next time NTL add any new service they guarantee it'll be better for every single last customer, without exception, then force them to take the service without asking.

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

We've been with NTL since day one (in wales) and we pay a large sum a month for digital, broadband and a phone service of which we've been greatly happy with. Unfortunately the only service keeping us with NTL is the broadband and if it need be and we ever get any crap off NTL of course its going to be bye bye NTL and we'll go back to Sky + BT and find an ADSL (something i really dont want to do).

So you're saying that the service NTL provides is better than the alternatives, but if you decide that it's not you'll switch to another provider? Can you hang on a minute while I put my eyeballs back into their sockets? They popped out at the thought of such a radical notion as weighing up the alternatives and choosing the one that suited you best.

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

I could use stronger words to describe what NTL are doing to its customers on broadband its ultimately a sly tactic to make more money off new customers tempting by what looks like a good broadband offer...

Well, doesn't that take the biscuit! Tempting new customers with what looks like a good offer! Don't let any of their competitors find out about this; you never know, they may even start making offers to get new customers themselves. And I love this wacky idea that NTL have of adding terms and conditions to their services, that you can read before signing up. Good job they're the only company on the planet that do this, or we'll be in a right pickle.

[0 morgan 0]

Originally Posted by Toto

Whether the network is congested or not, your stats would show up on ntl's monitoring systems, and regardless of bandwidth utilisation by your whole street your use is excesive, and in breach of ntl's own usage guidelines.

Math has nothing to do with this, you are exceeding the 1Gb per day usage guideline, by your own admission. You should therefore not be surprised if you do receive a letter from ntl's abuse team............oh, and try convincing them that you will move your services elsewhere, I'd imagine that wouldn't cut any ice with them.

lol i didnt realise how f***ed some of you guys really are lol. Your getting a second rate service and your happy to take the **** you get just like that huh?

Yes i know im abusing the service im not denying i shouldnt get everything i deserve but your looking at it in the wrong sense. I own the 2mb service but with the current cap i'd be better off owning the 150k service does this fact not GET IN YOUR HEAD AT ALL??? do you even understand the extend NTL are doing over there customers with this issue...

IM PAYING FOR A SERVICE WHICH SHOULD COST ME THE SAME AS THE OLD 150k SERVICE AND THATS AN INCREDIBLE FACT.

Basically i'll abuse the speeds NTL have given me until i here further from them. There ****ing me over i might as well **** them over until the end...

if you wanna be blind to the truth thats fine let NTL do whatever to you. By all means continue taking **** until the day you die its just funny that every come back all anyone can say is "your abusing the network" ... its funny because im downloading at 240kb/s and uploading at 15kb/s (20kb/s just kills my download speed) so why shouldnt i be taking advantage of that my network obviously isnt congested otherwise my download speed would be crap.
__________________

Originally Posted by cookie_365

Shocking behaviour! You'd think they'd put the speeds down to make them look worse in the eyes of the competition, wouldn't you? Though I do agree with you that it looks suspiciously like the speeds went up on purpose. Last time the speeds went up it was because someone dropped a mug of coffee into one of the UBRs and it accidentally and unexpectedly caused the bandwidth to double.



So is there congestion or isn't there? Or haven't you got a clue?



They want new customers? Who do they think they are? Some kind of business?




How dare they! Here you are, using a service you're happy with, then evil old NTL say 'you can have this alternative service if you want - but just in case the new one isn't right for you we'll keep you on the existing one unless you ask us to change'. I demand that next time NTL add any new service they guarantee it'll be better for every single last customer, without exception, then force them to take the service without asking.



So you're saying that the service NTL provides is better than the alternatives, but if you decide that it's not you'll switch to another provider? Can you hang on a minute while I put my eyeballs back into their sockets? They popped out at the thought of such a radical notion as weighing up the alternatives and choosing the one that suited you best.



Well, doesn't that take the biscuit! Tempting new customers with what looks like a good offer! Don't let any of their competitors find out about this; you never know, they may even start making offers to get new customers themselves. And I love this wacky idea that NTL have of adding terms and conditions to their services, that you can read before signing up. Good job they're the only company on the planet that do this, or we'll be in a right pickle.

i guess your one of these guys that likes to make a joke out of bad situations just to feel good ? you can hide behind the sarcasm and continue to take what NTL deal out... party on by all means

Originally Posted by 0 morgan 0

(sorry if i get the capitalisation wrong on the following measurements im sure you can understand it)

Look 1gb a day is 1024000 kbytes which is 1024mbytes which is 1gb

24hrs in a day x 60 minutes an hour x 60seconds a minute... = 86400 secs/day

1024000 divided by 86400 = 11.8kb/s

So to use our 1gb cap a day we might as well have a 150k connection and if we were to use this 150k 24/7 we'd still go over our 1gb a day limit.

LOL find this ironic? you still want to believe the crap NTL feed you. There broadband speed is a gimik to introduce new customers there cap is an insult to exsisting customers. The last letter i had from NTL was to tell me i was abusing the 56k service and that i should upgrade to the new broadband service that will be introduced soon...

Anyway as stated before if my network was congested the speed would be evenly spread... heres some more maths for you

If my street has a limit of 10mb for the whole street and there are 20 2mb users. If all 20 users were downloading at a max speed at one time we'd all suffer the same congestion limit of 0.5mb (512k) there would be no one downloading faster than anyone else. Yet again your arguement is flawed.

Thanks for your response anyway...

I'm not sure what you mean by 'believe the crap' - whatever the rights & wrongs, in this instance NTL has given a clear indication of what will be enforced as acceptable use for the three tiers available.

- it may not be to your liking, but I can't see any evidence they are trying to mislead customers - the limits are clearly laid out.

Your description of the contention for any one area ignores the effect of the upstream path - a few heavy users can affect the performance of several others, the bandwith isn't shared as equally as your example suggests.

But we are all in the same boat, after years of being vague about what is 'acceptable use' NTL are putting pegs in the ground - as customers we have the choice of accepting the limits, or taking our business elsewhere. As I see it, the situation really is as simple as that.