*MERGED* Militant Cyclists & Joggers

[Nor]

Originally Posted by Graham

but I (and a lot of other riders) go a lot faster than that, so it's actually safer to ride with the traffic!

Reminds of a time when I was cycling down the road, was around 15-20mph cycling my little heart out and this women looked at me then stepped off the kerb with her 3 kids at her side and walked right accross the road to my side. I jumped on the brakes and skidded to a halt. Looked at her to hear her shout "you are going too bloody fast"

lol smashing, couldn't quite believe her, perhaps she was just covering up for her stupidity

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Graham

Pardon me if I say this is *utter rubbish* and incredibly arrogant as well!
If you are driving in heavy rain or fog, do you give extra distance to the vehicle in front of you in case they stop?
Yes? (If no, well you bloody well should!)
So *WHY* do you appear to think that you should *NOT* give extra room to cyclists in rainy/ windy weather??? *WHY* do you seem to think that cyclists should not get in *your* way and if they might, they should get off and take some other form of transport instead?!

If you'd read what I'd said you'd have seen that I did mention that if the conditions deteriorate my driving adjusts, such as slowing down, increasing the distance between me and the vehicle in front etc. I even said that if I considered the road conditions to be too dangerous, I would not drive! At no point did I say drivers should not give cyclists extra room, in fact I said I give them plenty of room! (are you sure you were reading my post?)
The point I was responding to was that if the weather conditions are such that cyclists cannot ride safely with control of their vehicle (and remember, the weather will affect a light cyclist long before it affects heavier vehicles) then they should not go out cycling!
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Graham

I think the irony (not to mention the point) is lost on *you*!!!

Just *how many* cyclists do you see there? Now imagine that they were, instead, in cars, (one to a vehicle!!) and consider just how much *more* space they would take up!

I once saw some pictures a cycle protest where they'd rigged some bikes with metal frames that were the equivalent size of a standard car. It clearly demonstrated how you could easily fit *at least* six cycles in the same space that *one* car driver regularly uses!!

A protest against congestion which causes more congestion.... seems ironic to me, why not you?

Now if they were all adhering to the highway code, using brighton's cycle lanes (which a cyclist friend of mine was consulted on, pointing things out like you say, that cyclists will only really use the lanes if they're planned properly so that you don't get pedestrians in the way, and can keep a constant speed up)
then I'm sure their point would have been better made.
Unfortunatly they didn't do this (hey it wouldn't have been so contraversial otherwise now would it?), instead they were changing lanes without signaling, some were kicking cars as they passed (and no there was no reason for this), generally causing a nuisance.
It's all very well them saying things like "if you all cycled there wouldn't be any of this congestion" well frankly, if cyclists were banned from brighton on those days there wouldn't be any congestion either! ( no I am not calling for them to be banned )

Originally Posted by Graham

Thus speaks someone who has most probably never ridden a bike in traffic and has never had someone *WITHOUT INDICATING* turn left, directly across the front of them, requiring rapid avoiding action or an emergency stop to avoid getting a face full of car!

And as for "changing lanes without signals" I suggest next time you're out, you see how many *car drivers* indicate properly when they undertake that manoevure and remember that *they* are surrounded by a tonne of metal that's going to cause a lot more damage than a bicycle.

So cycling down eastern road to portsmouth college wouldn't count then? Or going down there on a 50CC moped?
When weather conditions were too bad for 2 wheels, I called in to say I wouldn't be making it, or got a lift in the car.
Even as a driver I have to deal with muppets suddenly turning without indicating (bloody rover drivers! sorry russ) that's why I give plenty of room, so when they do that, I don't have to perform an emergency brake.
As I said before, those drivers who can't wait the extra few seconds for a cyclist infront to pass the junction they want to turn down, so decide to overtake and then turn nearly immediatly across the path of the poor cyclist have no excuse, and I would hope than any copper seeing such an act of dangerous driving would if nothing else, give the driver one hell of a warning.
As a motorist I've whitnessed white vans watching motorcyclists go down between lanes in traffic jams, and then swerve out just before they get to them, simply to block their paths.
I've witnessed cyclists running red lights, nearly get hit by traffic only to stand there waving their fists as if they had right of way.
I've seen cyclists riding along the pavement when the road has been empty, causing pedestrians to jump out the way.
I've seen a woman knocked over by lycra wearing cyclist in a pedestrianised area where signs clearly show that cycling is not allowed.
And more worryingly I always see cyclists riding along the roads in the dark, wearing black, with no lights on (my fear is one night I might not be lucky enough to see these idiots).
And talking of cycle lights, can I just say, these new ultra bright LED lights are great, but I know I'm not the only one who actually finds it difficult to judge the distance when it's blinking and moving (when there's no other illumination and the cyclist is wearing dark clothes), if you've got one, can you hust set it to solid red? Cheers

So Graham, hopefully you've read all that I've put above. Now, go have a cup of tea, take a deep breath, calm down, and with a clear head read it again (I'm not being patronising here, although I know it probably sounds it, and I appologise for that)
I am not having a go at responsible cyclists like you, who adhere to the highway code, who make sure their bikes are always roadworthy, who know that there are idiots out there who are a danger to others and so ride defensivly, making sure they always do a second savetly check over their shoulder before turning, who never ride in pedestrianised areas, who plan their routes sensibly so avoiding dangerous roads (if I had know what eastern road was like I'd have gone to havant college!)

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Nor

Reminds of a time when I was cycling down the road, was around 15-20mph cycling my little heart out and this women looked at me then stepped off the kerb with her 3 kids at her side and walked right accross the road to my side. I jumped on the brakes and skidded to a halt. Looked at her to hear her shout "you are going too bloody fast"

lol smashing, couldn't quite believe her, perhaps she was just covering up for her stupidity

One of my college mates used to always get pulled over by the police for speeding!

[ZrByte]

One of my college mates used to always get pulled over by the police for speeding!

OMG!! how can they expect you to guage your speed when speedometers are not compulsary and frankly quite rare on a bike?
I'll bet this was while another Cyclist was running a red light in the background and cars where doing over 40mph in 30mph zones nearby (Bloody Police 'shakes fist' )

I wont cycle to work anymore, hehe I sweat too much due to how steep the hills are going to work and since I work in a shop and our Staff shower has just been removed I dont fancy spending half my shift with a big sweat patch down my back.

I instead ride my 100cc Scooter, and the way how a lot of drivers behave towards me makes me sick, do these people who tail gate me less than a meter behind think that if I have to slam on my brakes for an emergancy stop they will be able to stop before me? (Car braking distance is 4x that of a light bike like a scooter Apparently, and this increases rapidly over 30mph).

so far I have been lucky and the situation hasnt come up but I have a friend who lost his bike in the same way, he nearly run a red light and realised just as he was about 2 meters away from it, he slamed his brakes and stoped about 3 meters over the line, it was quiet on the road with no cars going in any other direction (about 11:30pm) yet the car behind him still managed to hit him and knock him off his bike destroying the rear wheel, the driver behind had been trying to overtake my friend for the best part of a mile even though my friend was aparently going about 5mph over the local speed limit and was that fixated on over taking the bike he had missed the red light all together and had bareley hit the brakes when he clipped my friend at a fair speed (It was lucky for my friend the driver only caught the side of his back wheel instead of going straight into the back of him or things may have been much worse).

one of my worst near accidents was driving to work, I was driving down a 40mph road comfortably doing 40mph down a 4 lane road (2 in either direction) when a taxi decided to pull out blocking both lanes and forcing me to emergancy stop, my bike finally came to a hault so close to his car that I could have ripped his wing mirror off (Felt like it too I was so angry but he realised, appologised and reversed back out of my way (I think he had honestly not seen me) drivers like this I can understand, its the ones who go mad at you in the same situation that I dont understand.

Another incedent was when I was driving home from work, on the same road as before but on a different part. The road briefly joins into 2 lanes (1 each way) due to there being a bus lane plus there is a sainsburys there, just after you get past sainsburys the road splits back into two lanes.
Now taking all this onboard I was driving at about 30mph - 35mph (On the 30mph part of the road) when I could hear an loud car engine sound coming up fast behind me (I dont know 100% but it sounded like he was doing about 60mph and judging by the speed he caught up with me Id say that was about right), there are a set of lights before the road joins into 1 with the left lane being left turn only (Sainsburys) and the right lane for straight on (Into the 1 lane of traffic), as we got to the lights I was in the right lane and he was in left (Not indicating to go left).
I could hear him reving his engine as we waited for the lights to change and I looked at his car, Peugot 406 with 5 people in the car (The male driver (probably the father) 1 woman and 3 kids) and me alone on a 100cc scooter, I thought he doesnt stand a chance even if I dont pull down hard on the throttle and I was sure he intended to cut me off into the single lane even though he shouldnt be going straight on due to the lane he was in.
Sure enough as the lights went green he shot off, I could hear his engine screaming (He really wanted to get into the lane infront of me) but even with my throttle open about 3/4 of the way he couldnt keep up with my acceleration (He could wipe me out once we had started but Acceleration belonged to me), I noticed in my mirrors he violently and quite quickly swirved into the lane behind me.
about 300 yards down the road it splits back into 2 lanes again and I wanted to be in the left lane (needed to be there anyway but I wanted to get out of this madmans way) so I indicated to move over into the left lane and as I started to turn he squeezed his car through the smallest Gap possible and cut me off into the Left lane, clipping my arm on his mirror as I was already over the line, the only reason he didnt take me off my bike was because I was aware he was behaving like a psycho and moved over very cautiously.

To sum all that up a lot of drivers seem to have a supperiority complex over bikes Especially Scooters and Pushbikes.

Im hoping to start car driving lessons in the new year so I hope to gain some perspective from the other side of the fence, but at the moment I have seen a few dangerous Motorcycle & pushbike drivers but none of thier mistakes compare to the things I have seen a lot of car drivers doing.

[Xaccers]

He was often tailgated by the unmarked police car in the area, less than a foot away from his back wheel before being pulled over to be told he was speeding!

Last accident I had on my motorbike, I stopped at some temporary traffic lights at roadworks.
BAM!
I get hit up the back.
Wondering what I'm going to find when I turn round (my sister had just had her fiesta written off by a police man), I was actually quite shocked to find a single decker bus with a great big dent in it's front!

I finally gave up the bike as I was getting fed up with harassment by the police.
One time I had three of them arguing over what the tyre depth should be (they measured mine at 1.6 so I was still legal), one guy thought it was 2mm, another said "well I know for mopeds it's ok so long as you can see some tread" which was shocking!
Then the fourth policeman came out and they told him the situation, and he suggested I should say thankyou for them not hitting me with a £40 on the spot fine for my tyres, um hello? 1.6 is the legal limit, I was on it, not below it!
(I should also point out that it was the end of the month and I was waiting for payday to get a new tyre anyway, so I was aware of the situation)

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by basa

And who said here how they hate cyclists who go on the pavement at traffic lights !! Seems you're damned if you do, damned if you don't



Now I wonder whose fault that is, oh yes all these thousands of cyclists barrelling all over the place. Don't think so !



I think this is foolhardy on behalf of any cyclist since it is only he who will end in hospital !



The "many" are probably young children who should be given due consideration whether walking or cycling.



It's the cyclists and pedestrians who are the easy targets !!

The laws of the road apply to ALL users whether on 2 or 4 wheels or legs.

I think you should read my post again, I never said anything about cyclists going on the pavement at traffic lights, I am talking about the ones that squeeze up the inside when you are stopped at lights, they either pull directly in front of car drivers or foolishly put their right foot down on the floor in front of the car wheel. Why not wait like all other traffic, do they gain a big advantage by jumping a car or two? in my opinion they are only suceeding in making themselves more vulnerable to an accident.

Cyclists and pedestrians are an easy target if someone goes out looking to run someone over, but a drunken cyclist or pedestrian walking into the road in front of a car should not be considered in the right. It's a terrible tradgedy when a child runs into the road without looking, but it's not right to instantly blame the car driver and make him feel like a social outcast when he was possibly not at fault.

Someone mentioned cycle lanes in roads, there is one particular road well more of a country road in the Monmouth/Raglan area that has had cycle lanes painted on both sides. There are signs warning not to drive in the cycle lanes, but suprise suprise, the lanes left for a car are not wide enough for anything more than a Smart car. Two vehicles cannot pass as the road was fairly narrow before they introduced these cycle lanes.

As I said cycling on the road is dangerous as far as I am concerned, if only due to the sheer amount of traffic these days. I had considered a job locally and if I had accepted I would of cycled to work probably with an electric cycle.
I considered this because there is a cycle path using an old railway line fairly close to my house that goes past the company that I considered working for.
There is no chance that I would of considered cycling on the road for 2-3 miles, as I have more sense than put my life at that sort of risk with the junctions that I would have to negotiate to complete the trip.

The laws as you rightly said do apply to all road users, unfortunately they are not enforced in all cases.

[basa]

Reading all these posts and calling on my 30+ years as driver and cyclist I figure there are three types of road user :

1) The 'Professional': This is the lycra clad sports cyclist, the lorry driver, taxi driver, bus driver, rales rep Mondeo driver. They generally think they own the road. Woe betide anyone who gets in their way !! They are so experienced (they think) that they know better than anyone else in any given situation. For the most part they are quite safe cyclists or drivers but tend to be driven by arrogance for others who are just getting in their way.

2) The 'Industrial': These are the cyclists and drivers who *have* to cycle / drive, generally for work reasons rather than pleasure. This would be the major group. These are the safest on the roads. They are experienced but generally not arrogant in the same way as the 'Professional' because they recognise that like most others they are there because they *have* to be not *want* to be. These are the ones who leave junctions clear, slow down and allow for slower traffic or pedestrians, stay in the correct lane etc, etc.

3) The 'Casual': This is the kid out playing on his bike, grandad collecting the papers, "4 wheel drive (or Mercedes) mum" nipping to Sainsbury's for tonights dinner. This group is lethal. Watch out for these !! They are totally unaware of anyone else on the road be they pedestrians, cyclists or cars ! They are likely to pop out at you from just about anywhere without warning !

The trick is to be able to identify these three basic groups in nano seconds from first seeing them. (You may well never see the 'Casual' ones before impact !!)

The above is my lame attempt at some humour to redress my anger last night.

Remember "Be safe out there".

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by peachey

I like to cycle myself in the summer


but I can't stant those militant ones you see in the traffic
dayglo stipes everywhere - helmet - po-faced - you know the sort

saw one this morning whacking the side of a car for no apparent reason

I admit a couple of years ago when I used to cycle everywhere to being a bit of a nazi where cars were concerned, thinking about it now I probably narrowly escaped death (or a good beating) on many ocassion but at the time my actions seemed justified. E.g. cycling to work (no cycle paths) the traffic is moving very slowly, a kindly driver behind me has actually for once given me some room and I'm moving at the same speed as everyone else, unfortunately they turn off and some nonse in a VW camper decides he want's to shorten the gap between himself and the car in front, this entails him pulling alongside me and swerving inwards causing me to end up in a bush, probably hilarious to watch but quite dangerous, I got up, cycled up alongside the passenger side, banged on the passengers window to give him a mouthful and his wife started screaming like I'd just murdered her entire family ... I took the initiative and decided to carry on to work. There were plenty of times again when traffic is moving very slowly where a lot of cars have left plenty of room to "undertake" on a bike, yet there is always some pr*ck who will overtake you when they find a space and jam their car in so you cannot get past, I take a small amount of pleasure in overtaking them on the drivers side and parking myself right in the middle of the road so they can carry on at my speed. Then there's the drivers that don't seem to spot a bike with two 15 watt cat eye lights on the front, I was cycling to a friends house on my birthday, some stupid woman decided despite me having lights on that would blind a small animal, that I didn't actually exist and that as soon as I got level to the point with her car, she'd pull out, wreck 1500 quids worth of mountain bike and put me in hospital for 3 days, she never got charged with dangerous driving because the local council hadn't road marked the junction properly despite the police agreeing that I had right of way, I ended up with £700 to replace my bike (this sum included 3 day's loss of earning's and compensation for injuries ... wonderful ... less than half the cost to replace the bike).

Originally Posted by Lord Nikon

To address both your posts Graham...

I've just found this post that I didn't see the first time around. It seems there's still problems with the "unread messages" system that manages to miss some for unknown reason.

The license plate would be the Cyclists home postcode plus house number, a form of registration some cyclists are already stamping into the frame for anti theft purposes.

But the point is *where* would it go? One of the reasons for licence plates is so the vehicle can be identified at a distance, eg driving away from a crash. There's no way that can be done safely on a bicycle.

The current driving licence system is ludicrous.

On that you'll get no argument from me!

Originally Posted by The Diplomat

Is it an offence for a cyclist to use a mobile phone whilst riding a bike?

If it isn't, it damn well should be!

[swoop101]

Originally Posted by Graham

If it isn't, it damn well should be!

Just this morning I saw a sui-cyclist ridng no-handed, on the phone and smoking a cig with his other hand

What he was going to do at the lights I dread to think.

It is this kind of utter stupidity that defies belief.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

If you'd read what I'd said (snip) (are you sure you were reading my post?)

Yes, actually I was. I do my best to read posts very carefully.

I suggest you go back and re-read your *own* post, #33 which was the one I was responding to in that message and realise that, in it you *did not* say any of the things you mentioned.

You *subsequently* wrote more and clarified your position in your post #36 (in response to Basa's message #34), however that was *not* the message I was responding to because I hadn't read it at the time I wrote that message, so please, do me the favour of taking a little more care in checking your references.

The point I was responding to was that if the weather conditions are such that cyclists cannot ride safely with control of their vehicle (and remember, the weather will affect a light cyclist long before it affects heavier vehicles) then they should not go out cycling!

And *WHO DECIDES*?? Just *when* are conditions so bad that a cyclist "should not" go out? And *why* is it that they "cannot ride safely"? Is it because inconsiderate drivers don't allow for the conditions and drive too close/ fail to give way/ fail to allow sufficient space?? Perish the thought...!

A protest against congestion which causes more congestion.... seems ironic to me, why not you?

Whooosh! (That's the sound of the point going over someone's head!)

It's all very well them saying things like "if you all cycled there wouldn't be any of this congestion" well frankly, if cyclists were banned from brighton on those days there wouldn't be any congestion either! ( no I am not calling for them to be banned )

It is *not* the cyclists who are *causing* the congestion, it is the motorists who are using large amounts of space for a *single* person. How many bikes can you fit in the space of a car? How many bikes can be parked in a slot that one car parks in?

It's all very well saying "now you be good little boys and girls and use your nice little cycle lanes and everyone will be happy", but the idea is to demonstrate that there *IS* an alternative to environmentally unfriendly, road hogging motorcars.

And talking of cycle lights, can I just say, these new ultra bright LED lights are great, but I know I'm not the only one who actually finds it difficult to judge the distance when it's blinking and moving (when there's no other illumination and the cyclist is wearing dark clothes), if you've got one, can you hust set it to solid red? Cheers

No, because that flashing gives me just a little bit extra advantage.

Yes, I know that, technically, it's illegal and, yes, I know why (after all, if *everyone* had flickering lights it would be a nightmare), but I'll trade that against the increased visibility it actually gives.

Having said that, there are some of those lights which I agree are a problem. Some brands have a slower flash with a distinct "off" phase instead of, like mine, having a rapid flash that means that persistance of vision results in the observer never actually losing sight of it. But the fact of the matter is that, if the driver suddenly loses sight of/ gets confused by the flashing, they should slow down and take greater care! It's not difficult.

So Graham, hopefully you've read all that I've put above. Now, go have a cup of tea, take a deep breath, calm down, and with a clear head read it again (I'm not being patronising here, although I know it probably sounds it, and I appologise for that)

Apologising like that is like saying "no offence" just after saying something offensive. It lacks sincerity and isn't convincing. If you really felt you'd need to apologise for comments like that you shouldn't have made them in the first place.

[basa]

Originally Posted by Graham

.......... that flashing gives me just a little bit extra advantage.

Yes, I know that, technically, it's illegal and, yes, I know why ....

I thought that....but last night on my way home (cycling) I saw two Policemen on horses and both had flashing red lights on the back of their jackets !

What's good for the goose........

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Graham

And *WHO DECIDES*?? Just *when* are conditions so bad that a cyclist "should not" go out? And *why* is it that they "cannot ride safely"? Is it because inconsiderate drivers don't allow for the conditions and drive too close/ fail to give way/ fail to allow sufficient space?? Perish the thought...!

I've seen many cyclists battling wind and rain, and often lose (ie get blown over, or go tumbling, or lose control when they brake), and no cars are involved.
As I said, cars should give plenty of room to cyclists, I know I do, heck if it's safe to I'll go completly over to the other side of the road if overtaking!
Pig ignorant drivers who tailgate cyclists, or cut them up etc do not just come out in bad weather (wish they'd stay at home all the time), they affect other road users too you know, not just cyclists!

Originally Posted by Graham

It is *not* the cyclists who are *causing* the congestion, it is the motorists who are using large amounts of space for a *single* person. How many bikes can you fit in the space of a car? How many bikes can be parked in a slot that one car parks in?

Hmm, normal state of Brighton = many cars, few bikes = no congestion
normal state of Brighton + extra cyclists = severe congestion
Ergo the extra cyclists are causing the congestion :P

Originally Posted by Graham

It's all very well saying "now you be good little boys and girls and use your nice little cycle lanes and everyone will be happy", but the idea is to demonstrate that there *IS* an alternative to environmentally unfriendly, road hogging motorcars.

Not really. I live in portsmouth, I can drive to Brighton in about 30mins.
If I cycled then it would take several hours, I'd not have room to put my shopping, and then I'd have a several hour cycle ride home.
I wouldn't be able to spend as much time in Brighton, or I'd have to cycle back along the A27 in the dark.
Most of the people in brighton walk, it's a nice place, and even if the weather is too bad to cycle, it's still normally safe to go out on your feet.
I also work near Heathrow, not practicle to cycle there, and as for visiting my gf up in Grimsby!
If I need to pop down the road to the shop, I generally walk, it's less hassle than getting the bike out, and safer to walk back carrying a shopping bag than cycling back with it (which I often see cyclists doing)

Originally Posted by Graham

No, because that flashing gives me just a little bit extra advantage.

Yes, I know that, technically, it's illegal and, yes, I know why (after all, if *everyone* had flickering lights it would be a nightmare), but I'll trade that against the increased visibility it actually gives.

Having said that, there are some of those lights which I agree are a problem. Some brands have a slower flash with a distinct "off" phase instead of, like mine, having a rapid flash that means that persistance of vision results in the observer never actually losing sight of it. But the fact of the matter is that, if the driver suddenly loses sight of/ gets confused by the flashing, they should slow down and take greater care! It's not difficult.

Technically illegal? Is that like a little bit pregnant?
Go to 5ave (or time as it's known now) wait for the strobe lights to go on, and try running across the dance floor without hitting anyone.
It's impossible due to the flashing.
A solid light is much easier to track than a strobe, hence why there is the law in place which you are breaking (you nasty criminal!)
It does not give you greater visibility (perhaps if it was on constantly but increased in brightness...) it actually makes it very difficult to notice, hence why I do slow right down.
Why do cyclists also do mad things like cycle down a dark lane wearing black?

Originally Posted by Graham

Apologising like that is like saying "no offence" just after saying something offensive. It lacks sincerity and isn't convincing. If you really felt you'd need to apologise for comments like that you shouldn't have made them in the first place.

It was late, I was trying not to sound patronising but wanted to say what I put, hence why I tried to express I wasn't being patronising.
If you want to get worked up about it, fine, I was trying not to let this turn into an argument, and keep it as a discussion.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I live in portsmouth, I can drive to Brighton in about 30mins.
If I cycled then it would take several hours, I'd not have room to put my shopping, and then I'd have a several hour cycle ride home.

This is a total non-sequitur. Please stick to the subject.

Technically illegal? Is that like a little bit pregnant?

I refer you to Basa's message about the mounted police above!

A solid light is much easier to track than a strobe, hence why there is the law in place which you are breaking (you nasty criminal!)

A flashing light is more noticable than a solid one. That is why car indicators flash.

A flashing light with sufficient "latency" that it does not have a distinct "off" phase on a bike is noticable and not difficult to track. I know, I've seen both.

It was late, I was trying not to sound patronising but wanted to say what I put, hence why I tried to express I wasn't being patronising.
If you want to get worked up about it, fine, I was trying not to let this turn into an argument, and keep it as a discussion.

I don't want to "get worked up about it", however using expressions such as that are not helping the "I'm trying to be reasonable and grown up about this" image you seem to be trying to project here.

Next time, why not just avoid using the expressions in the first place?