Britain outside the EU

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Call me a mad old fool but I'm not interested in can where my conditions and rights are concerned, I'd like the new plan set out before the old one is surrendered, we've been here before with trusting to hope and we held all the cards then too

Fair enough, that’s sensible.

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Pray, tell, OB how much experience do you have setting up a business?

I have had plenty of experience in advising managers how to comply with employment legislation while remaining solvent, and the legislative burdens on businesses are pretty clear when you actually see the implications by dealing with real problems.

Honestly, jfman, this point about bureaucracy and how it drags down industry are plain to see. You don’t have to be doing it yourself to see how EU bureaucracy impacts businesses negatively unless you are walking around with eyes closed.

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

I have read it (many times in the past, having run large teams/departments) - can you give examples of what the actual problems are (besides your stock answer of "too bureaucratic")?

These all look eminently sensible to me…



https://www.acas.org.uk/working-time-rules

It depends what kind of business you run. If, for example, you employ staff who are also sometimes caring for people who may need it overnight, the practice used to be that at those times you could actually sleep, but if you had to wake up to deal with a problem, you’d be expected to deal with it. For that, you would be paid an allowance plus an hourly rate for the hours you were dealing with the emergency. This arrangement worked perfectly well until the Working Time nonsense came in and employers were faced with claims that we had to pay the hourly rate at overtime rates for the whole night while on ‘waking duties’.

Another example - where manual workers signed up for emergency call-outs (for example, to clear snow on the roads) led to all sorts of problems with the additional hours worked on those days and nights, and also the costs involved compared with before.

We managed to find ways of making this work after a lot of work, but this effort would not have been necessary had it not been for these regulations, which many employers still find an encumbrance.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

That’s a "no", then…

Here’s a handy hint - if you’ve answered it before, why not just link to those posts?

Because I’m not trawling through my previous posts when you could do exactly the same.

---------- Post added at 11:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I seem to remember OB once letting slip he worked for the council.

I have worked for more than one employer in my working life, just like most people. The examples I have given are, in fact, council examples, which show that it’s not only profit-making businesses that are affected.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I have had plenty of experience in advising managers how to comply with employment legislation while remaining solvent, and the legislative burdens on businesses are pretty clear when you actually see the implications by dealing with real problems.

Honestly, jfman, this point about bureaucracy and how it drags down industry are plain to see. You don’t have to be doing it yourself to see how EU bureaucracy impacts businesses negatively unless you are walking around with eyes closed.

Ah yes, advising from the sidelines how to steamroller workers rights in the name of extracting further profits. Not actually running a business yourself.

Much like your climate change denial approach - there’s been an ice age more than once it can’t possibly be human - how do you explain the many successful companies that operate within the parameters of the EU, often steamrollering their British counterparts in the global markets?

Failed by Government(s) perhaps?

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

you employ staff who are also sometimes caring for people who may need it overnight, the practice used to be that at those times you could actually sleep, but if you had to wake up to deal with a problem, you’d be expected to deal with it. For that, you would be paid an allowance plus an hourly rate for the hours you were dealing with the emergency. This arrangement worked perfectly well until the Working Time nonsense came in and employers were faced with claims that we had to pay the hourly rate at overtime rates for the whole night while on ‘waking duties’.

Sleep in your workplace and only be paid if you are required to wake up.

If that’s the kind of exploitative working practice the EU directive prevents then I wholeheartedly support it.

---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Another example - where manual workers signed up for emergency call-outs (for example, to clear snow on the roads) led to all sorts of problems with the additional hours worked on those days and nights, and also the costs involved compared with before.

Scandalous. Manual workers getting overtime.

Life outside the EU sounds like a South Sudan sweat shop more than sunlit uplands.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Ah yes, advising from the sidelines how to steamroller workers rights in the name of extracting further profits. Not actually running a business yourself.

Much like your climate change denial approach - there’s been an ice age more than once it can’t possibly be human - how do you explain the many successful companies that operate within the parameters of the EU, often steamrollering their British counterparts in the global markets?

Failed by Government(s) perhaps?

You are making points I have not made. Typical of you.

Originally Posted by jfman

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

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Sleep in your workplace and only be paid if you are required to wake up.

If that’s the kind of exploitative working practice the EU directive prevents then I wholeheartedly support it.

I said they received an allowance for this. However, payment at full rate for hours spent sleeping is ridiculous. They were paid normal rate for hours actually worked.

Originally Posted by jfman

W

---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

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Scandalous. Manual workers getting overtime.

Life outside the EU sounds like a South Sudan sweat shop more than sunlit uplands.

You have made an assumption here. There was not a problem with paying plain time + an allowance, as agreed with the unions.

I said they received an allowance for this. However, payment at full rate for hours spent sleeping is ridiculous. They were paid normal rate for hours actually worked.

So they had to be on-site and available, so couldn’t be doing any other paid work, but shouldn’t get paid for this?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are making points I have not made. Typical of you.

I said they received an allowance for this. However, payment at full rate for hours spent sleeping is ridiculous. They were paid normal rate for hours actually worked.

You have made an assumption here. There was not a problem with paying plain time + an allowance, as agreed with the unions.

So not being paid to attend the workplace in a permanent state of on call?

You really are a piece of work, OB. I hadn’t fully comprehended your hatred of this country, it’s people and it’s history until tonight. I genuinely thought your support for Brexit was some deluded fantasy about a genuinely “Great” Britain.

But it wasn’t. You’d just pawn the lot off, raze it to the ground of some venture capitalists could offshore slightly more profits we’d never see again all the while living standards and working conditions go through the floor.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

So they had to be on-site and available, so couldn’t be doing any other paid work, but shouldn’t get paid for this?

They received an allowance for all the time spent on the premises. The unions were very satisfied with this arrangement. What’s your problem?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

They received an allowance for all the time spent on the premises. The unions were very satisfied with this arrangement. What’s your problem?

Slavery?

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

They received an allowance for all the time spent on the premises. The unions were very satisfied with this arrangement. What’s your problem?

Putting my union stewards hat on, I could agree with paying an allowance for the time the staff spent on the premises. I think paid by the quarter hour with the allowance based on 1.5 or 2 times their basic rate of pay, plus expenses either car allowance or taxi fares especially if the start or end of the shift were at an unsociable hour. I might be willing to forgo the enhanced rate in return for straight time with time off in lieu, but would need to consult with members to find out what they want.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

So they had to be on-site and available, so couldn’t be doing any other paid work, but shouldn’t get paid for this?

The requirement to be on-site was why they were paid an allowance. How could they be doing other paid work when it was beddy-byes time?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The requirement to be on-site was why they were paid an allowance. How could they be doing other paid work when it was beddy-byes time?

Shift work at another place of work?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The requirement to be on-site was why they were paid an allowance. How could they be doing other paid work when it was beddy-byes time?

The law quite rightly says that if you are required to be at your place of work you are at work and must be paid. That is, actually paid, not given an ‘allowance’. If the employer stipulates that the employee may sleep unless certain activities are required to be carried out then that’s the employer’s business. There’s nothing stopping them organising a night shift with activities throughout the night. Of course the reason they didn’t do that was to try to avoid paying people for being on the night shift. It was a scam that has been rightly stamped out.

If I am required to report to a location stipulated by my employer, as part of my contract of employment, and remain there for eight hours, so its no longer my own time and I am no longer free to choose where to go and who to spend time with, then I am at work and my employer must pay for my time and then has the luxury of giving me tasks to perform. Great if they want to tell me I can sleep on the job but that’s their choice, not mine.

[1andrew1]

No one has explained the benefits of the Working Time Directive to me better than Old Boy has done here!
If he's looking for a job, I'm sure Rejoiners would be keen to have him pontificate on other "unnecessary" EU red tape.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Shift work at another place of work?

If you can point to an opportunity to get paid for shift work during your sleeping hours, I might be interested in that. Let me know if you find such a job, that would be perfect!

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

If you can point to an opportunity to get paid for shift work during your sleeping hours, I might be interested in that. Let me know if you find such a job, that would be perfect!

shift work instead of sleeping…

Having done many many night shifts, no sleeping was done.

As Chris succinctly stated

If the employer stipulates that the employee may sleep unless certain activities are required to be carried out then that’s the employer’s business. There’s nothing stopping them organising a night shift with activities throughout the night. Of course the reason they didn’t do that was to try to avoid paying people for being on the night shift. It was a scam that has been rightly stamped out.

[jfman]

I can’t believe it took CCHQ 5 days to come up with that reply.