Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory

[spiderplant]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

phobia, is it?

Yes, I'd say it was. I regularly visit Bolton, Blackburn, Dewsbury and Bradford and have never been knowingly 'jumped' (not quite sure what it is, mind).

I also visit Didsbury occasionally, but it's a bit posh for me

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Jon, that definition is one of dozens that circulate. None of them have any legal meaning. Even our Parliament has been unable to agree a definition in law.

The reason is simple: They are hung up on the phobia element of the term Islamophobia. A phobia must be irrational - so much can be proven by reference to accepted definitions. Also, racism towards Muslims must be shown to be discriminatory in the sense of violating or promoting violation of human rights. The woke brigade just don't think these matters through.

They need to find another word for it - like Anti-Islamism but then you have define Islamism. So you see the difficulty.

My argument is totally rational and cannot be classified as Islamophobic except by people who haven't thought this through.

Possibly, my critics may accuse me not thinking things through. My exposition and rationale shows that I have indeed given this significant thought. One of the arguments raged against me is that later generations of new cultures don't breed as prolifically as their forebears. Is that true if it is the tradition of the religion to breed? The take-up of Islam in the UK has been analysed by the BBC.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17023858

As I said before, wake up.

I kind of get what you are saying in that you need to define Islam to be anti-islamic or islamophobic. Not liking Islam without fully understanding what it is, is simple prejudice. However, by understanding more about Islam and then saying things like Islam is not compatible with British culture is surely defining Islam and would therefore I guess fall in to your definition of anti-Islamism

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I kind of get what you are saying in that you need to define Islam to be anti-islamic or islamophobic. Not liking Islam without fully understanding what it is, is simple prejudice. However, by understanding more about Islam and then saying things like Islam is not compatible with British culture is surely defining Islam and would therefore I guess fall in to your definition of anti-Islamism

I don’t have a legal definition of Islamism, so anti-Islamism has to be personal judgement. The man in the street would identify Islamism with what’s happening as described in the MAIL article I quoted. I am close to the man in the street.

You’re sure that I’ve defined Islam because I say that it is culturally incompatible with indigenous British culture. Again, I refer you to the MAIL article which sets out the cultural difference that I deprecate and see as a threat to my culture.

Prejudice? Do you think I haven’t tried to understand the culture of Islam? It’s set out in the `Koran, which I’ve privately studied in English over a number of years. The MAIL article describes how that culture, set out in the Koran, is implemented on the ground. If that’s compatible with British culture then my whatsit’s a kipper.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by spiderplant

Yes, I'd say it was. I regularly visit Bolton, Blackburn, Dewsbury and Bradford and have never been knowingly 'jumped' (not quite sure what it is, mind).

I also visit Didsbury occasionally, but it's a bit posh for me

So the mail article is wrong and it's just made up? Just because you haven't experienced any trouble while there doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by spiderplant

Yes, I'd say it was. I regularly visit Bolton, Blackburn, Dewsbury and Bradford and have never been knowingly 'jumped' (not quite sure what it is, mind).

I also visit Didsbury occasionally, but it's a bit posh for me

How shallow.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by spiderplant

Yes, I'd say it was. I regularly visit Bolton, Blackburn, Dewsbury and Bradford and have never been knowingly 'jumped' (not quite sure what it is, mind).

I also visit Didsbury occasionally, but it's a bit posh for me

How come the violent crime figures for those areas is high, compare to their respective counties.


I remember a documentary from many years ago, where Ann Cryer went around Keighley talking to white people. They showed many accounts of girls being harassed when walking down the streets. They also interviewed a group of old people who had been "violently" forced out of sitting in one park, because of claims by a certain group that is was "Our area". They showed the elderly sitting in another park instead, and actually showed stones being thrown at them to force them out of that one. Of course in the documentary(possibly by Ann Cryer herself or David Aaronovitch) it was passed off as "youthful exuberance". Believe it or not, that was the term used. No way would that have been used in reference if the "races" were the other way around.


Not the same documentary:-
Link

Mrs Cryer spoke of how she was approached by seven mothers in 2003, who said their young daughters were being sexually groomed by gangs of overwhelmingly Mirpuri Pakistani men outside their school gates.
She said these mothers complained of not being listened to by the authorities when they tried to seek help, adding that she also received no co-operation when she intervened on behalf of the women.
"Friends of mine in the Labour Party knew about it [grooming] for years and never mentioned it to me," she said.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I don’t have a legal definition of Islamism, so anti-Islamism has to be personal judgement. The man in the street would identify Islamism with what’s happening as described in the MAIL article I quoted. I am close to the man in the street.

You’re sure that I’ve defined Islam because I say that it is culturally incompatible with indigenous British culture. Again, I refer you to the MAIL article which sets out the cultural difference that I deprecate and see as a threat to my culture.

Prejudice? Do you think I haven’t tried to understand the culture of Islam? It’s set out in the `Koran, which I’ve privately studied in English over a number of years. The MAIL article describes how that culture, set out in the Koran, is implemented on the ground. If that’s compatible with British culture then my whatsit’s a kipper.

Have you discussed this matter with any of your Muslim friends or neighbours, to see what they think about it?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Have you discussed this matter with any of your Muslim friends or neighbours, to see what they think about it?

As it happens, yes.

In every case, they were taken aback in varying degrees that I'd broached the subject with them. I approached it from the Madrasas aspect and the high take-up of Islam among the children and whether they thought there would ever be a point where there would be more Muslims than ethnic British. My friends were ambivalent on that point, perhaps sensing somewhere that they wouldn't want to conversation to go. Some turned the question on its head and asked me what I thought; so I told them. I got answers ranging from a sort of "nah", through possibly not to another question: would I fear if that happened? I told them, obviously yes and I was stunned, sort of, when they asked my why? Incompatible cultures, I replied. Some of them then tested me on why I thought the cultures to be incompatible; when I cited parts of the Koran translation that I have, I was challenged as whether or not the translation had been provided by a Scholar, the only people validated to do that because of their deep understanding of the meaning behind the Arabic written in the original scripture. I couldn't answer that, but essentially they (the some who got this far into the discussion) were testing me to see how deep they would need to go. One offered me English language books on the subject of Islam versus Christianity. When I asked whether for Christianity I could substitute Judaism, I got what I judged to be a reluctant yes.

My take-away from this is the British Muslims won't commit to the validity of my fears because they've kept their answers vague. Apart from one close friend, nobody could indicate that my fears were wild fancy; of course none said that I should be practising my facing east.

How about you?

So … to summarise … your close Muslim friend told you you were talking bolleaux, while those who know you less well were too polite to say so.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

So … to summarise … your close Muslim friend told you you were talking bolleaux, while those who know you less well were too polite to say so.

An incorrect summary.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As it happens, yes.

In every case, they were taken aback in varying degrees that I'd broached the subject with them. I approached it from the Madrasas aspect and the high take-up of Islam among the children and whether they thought there would ever be a point where there would be more Muslims than ethnic British. My friends were ambivalent on that point, perhaps sensing somewhere that they wouldn't want to conversation to go. Some turned the question on its head and asked me what I thought; so I told them. I got answers ranging from a sort of "nah", through possibly not to another question: would I fear if that happened? I told them, obviously yes and I was stunned, sort of, when they asked my why? Incompatible cultures, I replied. Some of them then tested me on why I thought the cultures to be incompatible; when I cited parts of the Koran translation that I have, I was challenged as whether or not the translation had been provided by a Scholar, the only people validated to do that because of their deep understanding of the meaning behind the Arabic written in the original scripture. I couldn't answer that, but essentially they (the some who got this far into the discussion) were testing me to see how deep they would need to go. One offered me English language books on the subject of Islam versus Christianity. When I asked whether for Christianity I could substitute Judaism, I got what I judged to be a reluctant yes.

My take-away from this is the British Muslims won't commit to the validity of my fears because they've kept their answers vague. Apart from one close friend, nobody could indicate that my fears were wild fancy; of course none said that I should be practising my facing east.

How about you?

I have discussed your theory with them - individually, and as couples/groups, they thought it was a strange concept; their take on it was that one group of Muslims (Wahhabism) trying to coerce/convince/deceive all the other groups of Muslims to have lots of children and make them follow a ruling to take over a country would be like the Roman Catholics doing the same in the U.K. with all the Christians (and asked how likely did I think that was?).

They also pointed out their (grown-up) kids were having smaller families (2 or 3 children), so that part of the proposition didn’t seem to hold water, either.

My daughter works at a University, and has quite a few Muslim friends/colleagues if the same ages as her (34), and I asked her to chat with them about the "Great Replacement" theory - her feedback was they thought it was a crazy theory, and they believed their generation were assimilating more than their parents did (while still being proud of their heritage & religion), and their intentions were only to have a couple of kids.

[jonbxx]

Well a nice side effect of this discussion is that I revisited A Man Like Mobeen on iPlayer this afternoon. Series 1, episode 4 (linkhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05pgnt0) was good on some of the discussions here

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

An incorrect summary.

I'm worried about you Seph, normally you're pretty open minded and reasonable (for a pro-brexit, a Conservative and a Francophobe ) but in this instance you seem to have willingly fallen hook line and sinker for the agenda of a right leaning newspaper that wrote an article that doesn't seem to be based on anything other than speculation, hearsay, opinion and (unfounded?) fear and I'm surprised and disappointed in you because I thought you were better than that.

If a left leaning newspaper wrote an article (note I don't say reported because that implies 'news' which the article in the Daily Mail obviously wasn't) where someone mentioned Wokingham was planning to demolish all houses except detached with a minimum of 5 bedrooms and introduce a minimum income to qualify for residence while at the same time ban any religions other than 'white' religions, most of us would laugh at it for what it was. The sad thing is some of the target audience of the paper would believe every word of it and for evermore keep trotting it out as fact.

I think your 90 year prediction will turn out as woefully wrong as Enoch Powell's 15 or 20 years and Old Boys 10 years.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I have discussed your theory with them - individually, and as couples/groups, they thought it was a strange concept; their take on it was that one group of Muslims (Wahhabism) trying to coerce/convince/deceive all the other groups of Muslims to have lots of children and make them follow a ruling to take over a country would be like the Roman Catholics doing the same in the U.K. with all the Christians (and asked how likely did I think that was?).

They also pointed out their (grown-up) kids were having smaller families (2 or 3 children), so that part of the proposition didn’t seem to hold water, either.

My daughter works at a University, and has quite a few Muslim friends/colleagues if the same ages as her (34), and I asked her to chat with them about the "Great Replacement" theory - her feedback was they thought it was a crazy theory, and they believed their generation were assimilating more than their parents did (while still being proud of their heritage & religion), and their intentions were only to have a couple of kids.

The only remaining solutions are that Seph is wrong or much more likely that the Muslims are lying to you and your daughter

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I'm worried about you Seph, normally you're pretty open minded and reasonable (for a pro-brexit, a Conservative and a Francophobe ) but in this instance you seem to have willingly fallen hook line and sinker for the agenda of a right leaning newspaper that wrote an article that doesn't seem to be based on anything other than speculation, hearsay, opinion and (unfounded?) fear and I'm surprised and disappointed in you because I thought you were better than that.

If a left leaning newspaper wrote an article (note I don't say reported because that implies 'news' which the article in the Daily Mail obviously wasn't) where someone mentioned Wokingham was planning to demolish all houses except detached with a minimum of 5 bedrooms and introduce a minimum income to qualify for residence while at the same time ban any religions other than 'white' religions, most of us would laugh at it for what it was. The sad thing is some of the target audience of the paper would believe every word of it and for evermore keep trotting it out as fact.

I think your 90 year prediction will turn out as woefully wrong as Enoch Powell's 15 or 20 years and Old Boys 10 years.

Maybe not 90 years, and maybe Hugh's numbers will trump mine and my fears will not be realised. But I stand by my incompatible culture assessment and there is considerable Jihad evidence to support that.

Regarding the Mail, I don't read it. But that article stood out as a piece of research by an Asian. Ed Husain.

The Muslim writer, who was himself radicalised in his youth and trained for Jihad by the same people as Omar Khyam, leader of the Bluewater bombers, grew up in a Bangladeshi family in Tower Hamlets, East London.

I am indeed open minded and reasonable, but I do have my convictions on this one.