Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

If it's within the trust it'll be about as independent as the panels stuffed full of failed politicians and lords whose decisions cause uproar all the time and regardless it's still a case of hospitals fining themselves and keeping the cash themselves

The new guardian of safe working role, hereafter referred to as the guardian, will be:

• a senior person
• independent of the management structure within the trust
• responsible for protecting the safeguards outlined in the terms and conditions of service (TCS) for doctors and dentists in training

The appointment panel for the guardian should include:

• the medical director or a nominated deputy
• the director of HR/workforce or a nominated deputy
• doctors in training, nominated by the local negotiating committee (LNC) or equivalent. At least one of the two doctors in training must be based in the appointing employer (or host organisation).
• The panel should reach consensus on the appointment.

Surprising and weird to see that somebody else has at least tried to find out the truth on the matters and checked the actual contract.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by martyh

pointless debating with you if you don't accept the proof in front of you ,it's in black and white in front of you so if you don't accept it i can't be arsed with you

I don't accept it and more importantly neither do the doctors, you know the ones this actually effects, they've seen the 'proof' and aren't buying it and neither is the vast majority of the public that supports them

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

Surprising and weird to see that somebody else has at least tried to find out the truth on the matters and checked the actual contract.

Thanks for confirming what I said re independence of panel

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I don't accept it and more importantly neither do the doctors, you know the ones this actually effects, they've seen the 'proof' and aren't buying it and neither is the vast majority of the public that supports them

Thanks for confirming what I said re independence of panel

Well the public are "buying it" based on lies.

It's only people at the hospital itself, includes junior doctors themselves and a consensus has to be reached on any appointment. Sounds independent and certainly NOT "stuffed full of failed politicians and lords".

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I don't accept it and more importantly neither do the doctors, you know the ones this actually effects, they've seen the 'proof' and aren't buying it and neither is the vast majority of the public that supports them

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------



Thanks for confirming what I said re independence of panel

Actually they do accept it (the BMA agreed and accepted that part a while back),i simply showed you the Guardian arrangement to show that your assertion that "If the doctors are over worked the hosputal now fines itself and redistributes the money within the hospital"is complete made up bollocks.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Well the public are "buying it" based on lies.

It's only people at the hospital itself, includes junior doctors themselves and a consensus has to be reached on any appointment. Sounds independent and certainly NOT "stuffed full of failed politicians and lords".

Yeah I never actually said the guardian selection panel was stuffed full of failed politicians and lords, you might want to bare that in mind next time you're demanding people read stuff

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Yeah I never actually said the guardian selection panel was stuffed full of failed politicians and lords, you might want to bare that in mind next time you're demanding people read stuff

This what is you said.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

If it's within the trust it'll be about as independent as the panels stuffed full of failed politicians and lords whose decisions cause uproar all the time and regardless it's still a case of hospitals fining themselves and keeping the cash themselves

Part of my reply was.

independent of the management structure within the trust

Surely the makeup of the selection panel, which includes junior doctors, determines who gets selected. The "guardian" will be a person of NHS Consultant grade or equivalent seniority.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by martyh

Actually they do accept it (the BMA agreed and accepted that part a while back),i simply showed you the Guardian arrangement to show that your assertion that "If the doctors are over worked the hosputal now fines itself and redistributes the money within the hospital"is complete made up bollocks.

Really the bma accepted and agreed to that did they, perhaps you should let them know as according to them it's something still up for negotiation

http://m.bma.org.uk/working-for-chan...is-for-juniors

Here it is again

https://fullfact.org/health/junior-d...ction-dispute/

---------- Post added at 01:07 ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

This what is you said.

Part of my reply was.
Surely the makeup of the selection panel, which includes junior doctors, determines who gets selected. The "guardian" will be a person of NHS Consultant grade or equivalent seniority.

I know full well what I said, I said it wouldn't be independent just like the panels stuffed full of failed politicians

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Really the bma accepted and agreed to that did they, perhaps you should let them know as according to them it's something still up for negotiation

http://m.bma.org.uk/working-for-chan...is-for-juniors

Here it is again

https://fullfact.org/health/junior-d...ction-dispute/

---------- Post added at 01:07 ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 ----------



I know full well what I said, I said it wouldn't be independent just like the panels stuffed full of failed politicians

And the date of that document? April?, nope, March?, nope, February?, nope again. Things have changed since then.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Really the bma accepted and agreed to that did they, perhaps you should let them know as according to them it's something still up for negotiation

http://m.bma.org.uk/working-for-chan...is-for-juniors

Here it is again

https://fullfact.org/health/junior-d...ction-dispute/

---------- Post added at 01:07 ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 ----------



I know full well what I said, I said it wouldn't be independent just like the panels stuffed full of failed politicians

Yes they did ,this letter dated 12th feb 2016 superseded the links you provided with updated negotiations between NHS Employers and the BMA with AGREED terms.

http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/...M%20120216.pdf

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Sorry guys and girls on this forum. But l look at it this way.
Yesterday, and the day before l tooted my support to the Junior Drs on the picket line at west middx hospital, my local hospital.

I belong to the PCS Union, and WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT a Union strike, and never in my life cross a picket line.

But, l look at the bigger here.

Jeremy Hunt is trying to force a NEW contract onto the Drs, You canniot do that under employment law.

The BMA have rightly come out and supported there members.

What Hunt, and that Hypocrite Cameron has come and out said ' we have given them a good deal'
That deal is only good for the Government, to think they can push employees about - this is why companies have Unions. To support there workforce.

IF, Cameron and Hunt got there way, the NHS would be privatised tomorrow.

If my employer wants to change my contract, my company would discuss and talk about it.

Its like IF, the Juniors were on duty, after doing a 12 hour shift. And no Dr turned up to replace him, he would have to stay on till a replacement was found.

If they strike again, it will probably go on for three days. But consultants or registrars would take there place.

And some of them support there colleagues.

Its about time Hunt sat down with the BMA and sorted this out, instead of pussyfooting around.

Or like as he was smiling in the commons the other day, when Corbyn was lashing at him. Awhile the rest was either asleep or playing about on the mobile phones or jeering each other, like spoilt kids - and we pay there wages

[Gavin78]

There was already an increase in national insurance contributions of around 1.4% this month

you have to ask though how much money do we need to pay out, there is an ever increasing population not to mention open borders to let more in that will need more care.

better ways to screen for an illness which might detect something early but not necessarily cure whatever it is but add additional costs to the NHS. you have to ask what can they do with the budget employ more staff? use existing staff but have the money to put into patient care costs. help fund research increase wages and work less hours for it.

There is a lot to consider and while I do support the DR's so far I think they are fighting a lost cause.

I got a 1% pay rise rise this month taking my wage from £17,800 to £17,980 but had a national insurance increase of 1.4% if anything I'm worse off.

In reality there are other jobs that work long hours the DR's are no different

[nomadking]

The "imposition" of the contract is only fairly recent and very importantly was AFTER the strike vote, and therefore can't be a reason. The BMA have agreed with most of it, so does that really justify a strike? It's possible that a lot of it can effectively be imposed by getting the employers to change the rosters. As the current contract is "looser" on working hours there is plenty of scope to move thing around and all without the 13.5% increase. Concessions have been made by Jeremy Hunt, eg extra Saturday pay where they have already worked one Saturday that month, increase in basic pay up from 11% to 13.5%. A sticking point seems to be that the BMA insist on doctors get pay rises and advancements based on time served, including long-term sick leave and maternity leave. This is not shelf stackers we're talking about, career advancement should be based on ability shown and actual amount of experience dealing with actual patients. How would it be fair or equitable(ie equal) for a person who has spent 2 out of the last 6 years at home, being "ahead" of somebody who has worked solid for 5 or 6 years? You see on medical dramas that junior doctors need to have real world experience of various medical procedures in various circumstances. Medical school is unable to fully prepare them in that way. They don't come out fully fledged and ready to go.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

The Drs took legal advice before deciding on this all out strike. And l don't think for one minute, if there was an emergency, that needed drs. They would have broken the picket line.
Similar to the fire service, when they went on strike.

I look at it in many ways. In the news recently, they pay for extras, such as parking. They pay a fee each week, (yes, l know that the public pay for parking at Hospitals) but to me Drs and Nurses shouldn't have to pay.
If they live on Hospital Grounds, they must pay a small rent.
They have to buy there own medical books.

And don't forget, when they come from training school, after 5 or 6 years, they are probably heavy in debt.

There are many things, that we don't know.

And yes, l know that we also have long hour jobs.

But some member said about an 1% pay rise. I got a 1% pay rise - then my rent went up, bang goes my pay rise

I support Drs all the way

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

The Drs took legal advice before deciding on this all out strike. And l don't think for one minute, if there was an emergency, that needed drs. They would have broken the picket line.
Similar to the fire service, when they went on strike.

I look at it in many ways. In the news recently, they pay for extras, such as parking. They pay a fee each week, (yes, l know that the public pay for parking at Hospitals) but to me Drs and Nurses shouldn't have to pay.
If they live on Hospital Grounds, they must pay a small rent.
They have to buy there own medical books.

And don't forget, when they come from training school, after 5 or 6 years, they are probably heavy in debt.

There are many things, that we don't know.

And yes, l know that we also have long hour jobs.

But some member said about an 1% pay rise. I got a 1% pay rise - then my rent went up, bang goes my pay rise

I support Drs all the way

Are parking fees part of the dispute? Is it different from the current contract? If so, does that justify a strike.
New contract

Other allowances
21. Doctors who necessarily incur charges in the performance of their duties, in relation to parking, garage costs, tolls and ferries, shall be refunded these expenses on production of receipts, whenever these are available. However, charges for overnight garaging or parking shall not be reimbursed unless the doctor is entitled to night subsistence. This does not include reimbursement of parking charges incurred as a result of attendance at the doctor’s principal place of work.

Current

Garage expenses, tolls and ferries 301. Subject to the production of vouchers wherever possible, practitioners using their private motor vehicles on an official journey at the standard, regular user or special rate of mileage allowance shall be refunded reasonable garage and parking expenses and charges for tolls and ferries necessarily incurred, except that charges for overnight garaging or parking shall not be reimbursed, unless the practitioner is entitled to night subsistence allowance for overnight absence. Similar expenses may also be refunded to practitioners only entitled to the public transport rate of mileage allowance, provided that the total reimbursement for an official journey does not exceed the cost which would otherwise have been incurred on public transport, including the fares of any official passengers.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Nomad, I am talking in context about Pasrking Fees here for NHS staff.

The Junior Drs took full legal advice on the strike action. This is why there was a full walk out.

It appears some members don't believe that the action behind the strike, is worthwile and wrong.

I have seen through my work what these Drs have to go through in hospitals, its no joke I would not like to be a Drs, they work hard for many years to be a Dr, and get treated like dirt by the Government.

The Government cannot treat Public Sector workers, as if they don't exist. They get 1% pay rise. While, the Government keep giving themselves pay rise.

Irs not right