Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out

[Gavin78]

working for the NHS myself this is causing no end of problems..while being in the "gang" so to speak working in the same environment they do you can give some sympathy but now it has got too dangerous and patients lives are being compromised

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So you're happy with the doctors lying? Disenchanted with what? Long hours, well that's proved to be nonsense. It's allegedly not about getting more pay, so what is it all about? That is, not things based on LIES or POLITICALLY BASED CONJECTURES.

Maybe it just proves they have multiple reasons for striking and how was the hours issue proved nonsense

---------- Post added at 07:50 ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Every time one of them speaks on the news there is a different reason why they are striking ,this morning on the BBC news when it was pointed out that they would be working less hours one of the doctors said the new contract would lead to "gender inequality" ,as far as i'm concerned they are just playing politics

I'd have thought most doctors were conservative supporters

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by martyh

Every time one of them speaks on the news there is a different reason why they are striking ,this morning on the BBC news when it was pointed out that they would be working less hours one of the doctors said the new contract would lead to "gender inequality" ,as far as i'm concerned they are just playing politics

You responded to that quote.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Maybe it just proves they have multiple reasons for striking and how was the hours issue proved nonsense

The new contract specifically reduces the hours. Have you read it? Eg max hours in a 7 day period reduced from 91 to 72.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by alanbjames

NHS always seems to be at breaking point even when billions and billions have been added to it.

Where do these extra billions go?

Mostly care for the elderly, especially in the last year or two of their lives.

Other than that over the past 7 years there haven't been extra billions and billions, health care expenditure is lower per head than it was in 2009.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Arthur, I know you and facts aren't comfortable neighbours, but I thought I might introduce you to some, just in case you wanted to have an informed conversation...

http://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/k...ics-on-the-nhs

The trouble is, when people see the NHS, they think it should be employing Doctors and Nurses and no one else..

They don't realise the following:

• Patients need feeding (which requires Catering staff)
• Wards, Rooms, Theatres, Corridors and everywhere else in the Hospital needs cleaning (which requires cleaning staff, some of whom are specialised)
• Hospitals have a lot of equipment that needs power, which requires a reliable mains supply with tested backup (requiring Electricians to be on staff)
• Hospitals have a lot of other equipment and facilities to maintain (thus requiring a whole variety of different tradespeople, such as builders, plumbers, carpenters).

These people all need management..

I could go on, but I think I've made my point adequately. When you or I walk into a Hospital, we see (and deal with) the Doctors, Nurses and other Medical/Surgical staff. What we don't see is that the Hospital employs sometimes hundreds of other staff, most of whom are needed by the Hospital to provide treatment every bit as much a the medial and surgical staff. I do know that a lot of the functions I've outlined are performed by outside contractors, but they aren't all, and the NHS still indirectly pays for the staff, even if the staff are actually paid by a contractor.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by martyh

Every time one of them speaks on the news there is a different reason why they are striking ,this morning on the BBC news when it was pointed out that they would be working less hours one of the doctors said the new contract would lead to "gender inequality" ,as far as i'm concerned they are just playing politics

Exactly. They aren't making much/any sense when they give reasons for the strike......and the interviewers usually allow them to get away with it

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The trouble is, when people see the NHS, they think it should be employing Doctors and Nurses and no one else..

They don't realise the following:

• Patients need feeding (which requires Catering staff)
• Wards, Rooms, Theatres, Corridors and everywhere else in the Hospital needs cleaning (which requires cleaning staff, some of whom are specialised)
• Hospitals have a lot of equipment that needs power, which requires a reliable mains supply with tested backup (requiring Electricians to be on staff)
• Hospitals have a lot of other equipment and facilities to maintain (thus requiring a whole variety of different tradespeople, such as builders, plumbers, carpenters).

These people all need management..

I could go on, but I think I've made my point adequately. When you or I walk into a Hospital, we see (and deal with) the Doctors, Nurses and other Medical/Surgical staff. What we don't see is that the Hospital employs sometimes hundreds of other staff, most of whom are needed by the Hospital to provide treatment every bit as much a the medial and surgical staff. I do know that a lot of the functions I've outlined are performed by outside contractors, but they aren't all, and the NHS still indirectly pays for the staff, even if the staff are actually paid by a contractor.

That's a good point. The media and our politicians tend to label 'managers' rather like they label 'bankers'. I've no doubt there is a fair amount of 'excess' at the highest levels of management but that's not restricted to the NHS.

As for the doctors, well they're behaving a bit like Bob Crowe's union right now.

[Scary]

Get them in a room lock the door and they can only come out once a resolution has been reached

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

You responded to that quote.

The new contract specifically reduces the hours. Have you read it? Eg max hours in a 7 day period reduced from 91 to 72.

The new contract is bs the mechanisms for controlling over working doctors have been watered down. They haven't got enough staff to cover five days yet there now going to cover seven with the same numbers

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

The new contract is bs the mechanisms for controlling over working doctors have been watered down. They haven't got enough staff to cover five days yet there now going to cover seven with the same numbers

Please show how the mechanisms have been watered down .The doctors keep saying that as well and yet not one of them have adequately explained how they have been watered down .The new contract is quite clear on the hours that are allowed to be worked

Here is a link detailing and comparing the original contract to novembers contract and the new contract ,you will see quite clearly that it is a vast improvement on working hours

http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/...2022%20Feb.pdf

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by martyh

Please show how the mechanisms have been watered down .The doctors keep saying that as well and yet not one of them have adequately explained how they have been watered down .The new contract is quite clear on the hours that are allowed to be worked

Here is a link detailing and comparing the original contract to novembers contract and the new contract ,you will see quite clearly that it is a vast improvement on working hours

http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/...2022%20Feb.pdf

If the doctors are over worked the hosputal now fines itself and redistributes the money within the hospital, I believe the hospital is also required to give itself a very stiff talking to as well.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

If the doctors are over worked the hosputal now fines itself and redistributes the money within the hospital, I believe the hospital is also required to give itself a very stiff talking to as well.

Actually that's completely wrong .

Any financial penalty will be managed by the 'Guardian' who is independant of the management

Information on the guardian role

a senior person
independent of the management structure within the trust
responsible for protecting the safeguards outlined in the terms and conditions of service (TCS) for doctors and dentists in training. (Link to be added)

http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-wor...-guardian-role

There is also this

Two days later, Sir David set out more detail in another letter: no doctor would ever be rostered to work on consecutive weekends; the maximum number of night shifts in a row would be cut from seven to four; maximum consecutive days would fall from 12 to eight.

In cases where trusts breached the rules, they would have to pay a fine based on four times the excess hours worked, some of which would go to the doctor who worked the hours.

This is the letter the above extract is based on

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by martyh

Actually that's completely wrong .

Any financial penalty will be managed by the 'Guardian' who is independant of the management

Information on the guardian role



http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-wor...-guardian-role

There is also this



This is the letter the above extract is based on

If it's within the trust it'll be about as independent as the panels stuffed full of failed politicians and lords whose decisions cause uproar all the time and regardless it's still a case of hospitals fining themselves and keeping the cash themselves

Strange that working hours are being used as a reason, when the current proposals were agreed at ACAS meetings in January, with the only outstanding issues being week-end pay rates.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ark_Porter.pdf

As you know, we had resolved 15 of the 16 issues we agreed to discuss in the memorandum of understanding agreed with ACAS on 30 November and that you raised during the negotiations. These included safety issues such as maximum working hours as well as measures to improve the quality and experience of training for junior doctors. On the final unresolved issue of pay for weekend working, we remain willing to show flexibility and negotiate in good faith. It is therefore highly unfortunate that your team were not willing to discuss any compromise on this issue even though we have made clear that pay will be protected for all doctors working within contracted maximum hours.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

If it's within the trust it'll be about as independent as the panels stuffed full of failed politicians and lords whose decisions cause uproar all the time and regardless it's still a case of hospitals fining themselves and keeping the cash themselves

pointless debating with you if you don't accept the proof in front of you ,it's in black and white in front of you so if you don't accept it i can't be arsed with you