[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Big Brian

There is economic uncertainty whether we stay or leave. The point of leaving would be that we have control over that uncertainty and can plan accordingly.

There is always some uncertainty but this adds more on top. Voting in is the status-quo, the only uncertainty is that which would exist anyway, wondering what happens with the single market and all the trade deals currently in place is additionally uncertainty.

Also the idea we'll 'gain control' when everything is so interconnected is a bit of an illusion.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

A vote to leave doesn't seem to solve anything but could pose new issues. I would rather have the stability.

Since the stated aim of the EU is ever closer fiscal and political union, a vote for in is a vote for (eventually) adopting the euro and getting more political dictats from Brussels. Factor that into your thinking.

Originally Posted by Damien

Voting in is the status-quo,.

I disagree ,voting in means embracing everything we have spent decades trying to avoid .An in vote is a vote of confidence in the EU

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Since the stated aim of the EU is ever closer fiscal and political union, a vote for in is a vote for (eventually) adopting the euro and getting more political dictats from Brussels. Factor that into your thinking.

I would agree. We can't keep opting out forever.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well it depends what you mean.

If it's the Eurozone crisis - we're not part of the Eurozone.
If it's the Migration crisis - we're not part of open borders.

These can both still hurt us of course but only in ways that would affect us inside or outside the EU. The one exception would be if migrants becoming EU citizens but I consider that not too big a problem. Whatever happens the EU will still be there and a vote to leave wouldn't stop those problems and won't stop them harming us.

I question the material consequence a vote would have on my life. At the moment I can't see much about my live that would be improved by leaving the EU. However if there is economic uncertainty in the aftermath of leaving then that could hurt me. I work in a service industry and if that takes a hit then it's also bad for me.

A vote to leave doesn't seem to solve anything but could pose new issues. I would rather have the stability.

My point is not that these things don't/can't/won't affect us whether we're in or out but that they're examples of why the EU is a basket case. If that's the stability you speak of God only knows what the instability you fear will result from our exit looks like and why? What do you honestly think will happen if we stay in?

With the threat of the UK leaving gone and our negotiating position at rock bottom like it or not and sooner or later, new laws will be passed that benefit the rest of the EU and harm the UK's interests. As the second biggest contributor and the only one with any significant growth, we're going to be required to pay more in just for the privilege of keeping others afloat. They've already tried undermining the City of London and they'd love for Frankfurt to be numero uno. You need to understand that ever since we joined, they haven't had our interests at heart, they've had their own grand scheme at heart and they clearly aren't going to give that up any more than Hitler gave up ordering his model armies around as the Russians approached his bunker. There really is no greater uncertainty than putting yourself and your nation in the hands of people who only have one vision, patently refuse to learn from history and most worryingly of all refuse to change direction when all around them is chaos and they're heading towards a precipice. Having led us to where we are, God only knows what further madness they have in store for us.

For me the uncertainty of leaving is dwarfed by the certainty (based on what we can see going on around us) that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and failing concept which will continue to break apart. Now there's uncertainty for you.

What you're suggesting would be like staying in a relationship with a deranged partner but refusing to leave because you're worried that you'll meet someone worse. In such a situation the only sensible thing to do is to move on and make damned sure you're a lot more careful next time, learn from your mistakes and forge new relationships with likeminded people. I think the UK can do just that quite nicely but fully accept that there will be some short term pain.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

There is always some uncertainty but this adds more on top. Voting in is the status-quo, the only uncertainty is that which would exist anyway, wondering what happens with the single market and all the trade deals currently in place is additionally uncertainty.

Also the idea we'll 'gain control' when everything is so interconnected is a bit of an illusion.

So tell us what's so great about this EU. All we see is bickering and financial troubles?

Originally Posted by martyh

I disagree ,voting in means embracing everything we have spent decades trying to avoid .An in vote is a vote of confidence in the EU

Well we haven't joined the Eurozone or the open-borders arrangement and that will still be the case. We're not signing away our right to leave at a later date (i.e is the 'one-state' happens) and in fact I suspect that if we do vote to remain EU Referendum will join the Scottish Referendum in the list of things that never end.

I see that it would be perceived as a stamp of approval though but such symbolism is partly countered by the symbolism of having 'Britain is not part of ever closer union' stamped all over the place.

I think a vote to remain would be a begrudging pragmatic acceptance than access to the single market is not worth losing.

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

What you're suggesting would be like staying in a relationship with a deranged partner but refusing to leave because you're worried that you'll meet someone worse. In such a situation the only sensible thing to do is to move on and make damned sure you're a lot more careful next time, learn from your mistakes and forge new relationships with likeminded people. I think the UK can do just that quite nicely but fully accept that there will be some short term pain.

This isn't a marriage with an abusive partner though. It's more like a business deal between two companies that don't quite trust each other. However that business deal allows us to address a much bigger market so we put up with it.

My point is not that these things don't/can't/won't affect us whether we're in or out but that they're examples of why the EU is a basket case. If that's the stability you speak of God only knows what the instability you fear will result from our exit looks like and why? What do you honestly think will happen if we stay in?

My fear is that we would see our industries, especially services, stall in growth and maybe even recede as their access to the European market diminishes and we're faced with having to redo the existing trade deals which could take many years and result in worse deals. If we stay in I think things will be as they are. We will moan about the EU and occasionally get angry at some bit of stupidity but ultimately our economy will be more important.

[Osem]

More scaremongering, this time it's a lost generation cut off from the world FGS!

A vote to leave the European Union could have a devastating impact on the life chances of young people, Education Secretary Nicky Morgan has said.

Entering the debate over EU membership, she urged parents and grandparents to think how their vote would affect opportunities for the next generation...

... "They don't want to see a Britain cut off from the world, where not only their opportunities, but our influence as a country, ends at our shores.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35911017

Would they be like the lost generation of unemployed, helpless youth in places like Spain, Greece, France, Portugal?...

How can anyone seriously argue that our leaving the EU would cut anyone off from the world?

Originally Posted by Damien

Well we haven't joined the Eurozone or the open-borders arrangement and that will still be the case. We're not signing away our right to leave at a later date (i.e is the 'one-state' happens) and in fact I suspect that if we do vote to remain EU Referendum will join the Scottish Referendum in the list of things that never end.

I see that it would be perceived as a stamp of approval though but such symbolism is partly countered by the symbolism of having 'Britain is not part of ever closer union' stamped all over the place.

I think a vote to remain would be a begrudging pragmatic acceptance than access to the single market is not worth losing.

I think it will far too easy for any future government to use an in vote to absolve themselves of any responsibility and sign all their powers over to the European superstate ,that's exactly what happened as a result of the last referendum we had

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well we haven't joined the Eurozone or the open-borders arrangement and that will still be the case. We're not signing away our right to leave at a later date (i.e is the 'one-state' happens) and in fact I suspect that if we do vote to remain EU Referendum will join the Scottish Referendum in the list of things that never end.

I see that it would be perceived as a stamp of approval though but such symbolism is partly countered by the symbolism of having 'Britain is not part of ever closer union' stamped all over the place.

I think a vote to remain would be a begrudging pragmatic acceptance than access to the single market is not worth losing.

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------



This isn't a marriage with an abusive partner though. It's more like a business deal between two companies that don't quite trust each other. However that business deal allows us to address a much bigger market so we put up with it.

I didn't mention marriage.

It may have escaped you but the EU has an effect on virtually aspect of our lives - much more like a relationship than a business deal IMHO. If it was just about business things wouldn't be so bad. It's not about trust, the problems are about their fundamental vision for the EU, including the other states they have their greedy eyes on despite already presiding over a very unhappy club of 28.

If I were a young person in the UK, I'd be far more worried about hordes more EU migrants coming here attracted by a National Living Wage which is far more than they'd ever hope to earn back at home. Now that's a certainty.

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I would agree. We can't keep opting out forever.

Perhaps that's all people bother looking for to support their viewpoint. The benefits all get swept under the carpet so instead of trusting people to make an informed choice they expect people to agree with only their choice

[Osem]

Originally Posted by martyh

I think it will far too easy for any future government to use an in vote to absolve themselves of any responsibility and sign all their powers over to the European superstate ,that's exactly what happened as a result of the last referendum we had

Yes, our bargaining position will be shot and there'll be pressure to sign us up to all sorts of additional nonsense as quickly as possible.

What we'll be giving up is our right to determine our own future and we'll be entrusting our fate to people who for decades have disagreed with, objected to and resisted just about every reform we've ever suggested. They like us paying the bills but patently don't feel obliged to listen.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well we haven't joined the Eurozone or the open-borders arrangement and that will still be the case. We're not signing away our right to leave at a later date (i.e is the 'one-state' happens) and in fact I suspect that if we do vote to remain EU Referendum will join the Scottish Referendum in the list of things that never end.

I see that it would be perceived as a stamp of approval though but such symbolism is partly countered by the symbolism of having 'Britain is not part of ever closer union' stamped all over the place.

I think a vote to remain would be a begrudging pragmatic acceptance than access to the single market is not worth losing.

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------



This isn't a marriage with an abusive partner though. It's more like a business deal between two companies that don't quite trust each other. However that business deal allows us to address a much bigger market so we put up with it.



My fear is that we would see our industries, especially services, stall in growth and maybe even recede as their access to the European market diminishes and we're faced with having to redo the existing trade deals which could take many years and result in worse deals. If we stay in I think things will be as they are. We will moan about the EU and occasionally get angry at some bit of stupidity but ultimately our economy will be more important.

Isn't it diminishing now? What's the difference? The risks are the same.

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

More scaremongering, this time it's a lost generation cut off from the world FGS!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35911017

Would they be like the lost generation of unemployed, helpless youth in places like Spain, Greece, France, Portugal?...

How can anyone seriously argue that our leaving the EU would cut anyone off from the world?

You just got that off the NEWS. Can't you make your own mind up?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Isn't it diminishing now? What's the difference? The risks are the same.

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------



You just got that off the NEWS. Can't you make your own mind up?

You've lost me.

Yes my link is to the BBC news website like many I post. Yes, I can make my mind up and already have. I'm voting OUT.

However, I see it as my duty to point out the reasons why and to try to influence those who aren't yet sure or who're just plain wrong like Damien is...

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

You've lost me.

Yes my link is to the BBC news website like many I post. Yes, I can make my mind up and already have. I'm voting OUT.

However, I see it as my duty to point out the reasons why and to try to influence those who aren't yet sure or who're just plain wrong like Damien is...

no it was what was said in that link by someone else about lost generation. As I read it, it came on the news. Spooky.