Riots

Originally Posted by Osem

It can be both depending on your opinion but for the same people to claim that all this stuff is in some way a measure of support for Duggan at the same time as claiming the trouble's being done by outsiders is nonsense. We're always being told the police don't have a clue what's going on in these 'communities' yet it's apparent that those who speak for the community don't know either.

Was there genuine anger at the shopkeepers, bus drivers, firecrews too? What for? What have they done except trying to serve a 'community' which the 'spokespeople' claim is so deprived.

The term 'communities' encompasses a lot of people. However the community leaders are probably correct in claiming that that the riots are condemned by the vast majority of the people they represent. As you say a lot of innocent people have been badly affected by these riots. Homes, Businesses, and their livelihoods have all been cruelly stolen by a unthinking mob. So they do condemn it.

Tottenham is a deprived area, one of the poorest in London, and the riot in Tottenham had it's roots in the killing of Mark Duggan. It started off as a protest against his death and was then hijacked and turned into a riot, the exact reason it sparked into what it did has yet to be ascertained.

The spokespeople are right. The community deplore the rioting but they also have concerns about, amongst others, Duggan.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

The term 'communities' encompasses a lot of people. However the community leaders are probably correct in claiming that that the riots are condemned by the vast majority of the people they represent. As you say a lot of innocent people have been badly affected by these riots. Homes, Businesses, and their livelihoods have all been cruelly stolen by a unthinking mob. So they do condemn it.

Tottenham is a deprived area, one of the poorest in London, and the riot in Tottenham had it's roots in the killing of Mark Duggan. It started off as a protest against his death and was then hijacked and turned into a riot, the exact reason it sparked into what it did has yet to be ascertained.

The spokespeople are right. The community deplore the rioting but they also have concerns about, amongst others, Duggan.

I know plenty about Tottenham believe me - In my teens/early 20's I spent many years in that part of London and indeed in Lewisham (which isn't a million smiles away geographically of demographically) when all sorts of trouble was kicking off.

Part of the problem is who are these 'spokespeople'? As I've already said, I've heard some saying one thing and some saying another. Some saying they deplore the riots but claim it's being done in support of Duggan - hence building up a sense of community revulsion and increasing the pressure upon the authorities. Others who also condemn the riots but claim the rioters are just troublemakers from elsewhere who couldn't care less about Duggan. They can't both be the case and that's the point I'm making about who's speaking for the 'community' and the reliability of and/or the motivation behind their comments.

Originally Posted by Osem

I know plenty about Tottenham believe me - In my teens/early 20's I spent many years in that part of London and indeed in Lewisham (which isn't a million smiles away geographically of demographically) when all sorts of trouble was kicking off.

My sympathies

Part of the problem is who are these 'spokespeople'? As I've already said, I've heard some saying one thing and some saying another. Some saying they deplore the riots but claim it's being done in support of Duggan - hence building up a sense of community revulsion and increasing the pressure upon the authorities. Others who also condemn the riots but claim the rioters are just troublemakers from elsewhere who couldn't care less about Duggan. They can't both be the case and that's the point I'm making about who's speaking for the 'community' and the reliability of and/or the motivation behind their comments.

OK I understand clearly what your saying now. Can't really speak to any of it though, unsure on who exactly is speaking and what they are saying. Just that you can be both against the riots but feel the original protest had merit. Anyone who thinks the riots are justified or that the police are to blame are wrong, imo, regardless of what the verdict on Duggan is.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

My sympathies

...and look how I turned out...

The reason I used quotes for 'communities' is exactly that. IMHO in places like Tottenham there's no such thing as 'the community', just lots of separate groups and people who claim to represent them for one reason or another. Perhaps, before sounding off at the authorities for a lack of understanding, these people ought to thrash out some form of common ground between themselves and start singing from the same hymn sheet. Equally, the authorities ought to be careful who they listen and respond to.

Originally Posted by denphone

l am not disputing that fact but l suspect there has always been a undercurrent underneath the surface for a while but there is still no excuse for the wanton violence and criminality that we saw on the streets of Tottenham and other parts to a lesser extent.

So the PM and Ministers should not have gone on holiday because you suspected there was an undercurrent in Tottenham?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

So the PM and Ministers should not have gone on holiday because you suspected there was an undercurrent in Tottenham?

Exactly. I wonder what Blair would've done about WMDs if he'd been in touch with Denphone at the time....

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Hugh

So the PM and Ministers should not have gone on holiday because you suspected there was an undercurrent in Tottenham?

l am talking about not just the current crisis at Tottenham but the huge economic crisis that is engulfing us all in Britain, Europe and America and surely in those circumstances he should holiday at home and not tally ho off to the continent.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by denphone

l am talking about not just the current crisis at Tottenham but the huge economic crisis that is engulfing us all in Britain, Europe and America and surely in those circumstances he should holiday at home and not tally ho off to the continent.

What's 'tally ho' got to do with anything apart from some silly stereotyping on your part?

Absolutely, because it's a treacherous, two-month journey on horseback through bandit-infested forest to get home from Italy.

Come on, Den, this is the 21st century. The PM can be home just as quickly from 'the Continent' - or raised on the telephone, if need be - as he could if he were down in Cornwall.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Osem

Exactly. I wonder what Blair would've done about WMDs if he'd been in touch with Denphone at the time....

Again Osem you are becoming political when l have steered well clear of scoring political party points.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

What's 'tally ho' got to do with anything apart from some silly stereotyping on your part?

And what's Blair got to do with this current crisis apart from scoring political points.

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Absolutely, because it's a treacherous, two-month journey on horseback through bandit-infested forest to get home from Italy.

Come on, Den, this is the 21st century. The PM can be home just as quickly from 'the Continent' - or raised on the telephone, if need be - as he could if he were down in Cornwall.

It convey's a better understanding to the public if he was to stay at home Chris.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by denphone

Again Osem you are becoming political when l have steered well clear of scoring political party points.

Yeah right. The 'tally ho' bit wasn't at all political then?.....

Originally Posted by denphone

And what's Blair got to do with this current crisis.

Nothing (apart from his time in power that is). I was just taking the opportunity to point out how ridiculous your argument and pathetic 'tally ho' comment is. I could've added Norman Lamont just prior to the ERM debacle and Churchill just prior to Dunkirk as other examples but didn't want to labour* the point.

* NOT being political there either. Honest!

What's "tally ho" got to do with this current crisis, besides using stereotypes to score political points?

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Again Osem you are becoming political when l have steered well clear of scoring political party points.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------



And what's Blair got to do with this current crisis apart from scoring political points.

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------



It convey's a better understanding to the public if he was to stay at home Chris.

Only to those with a tenuous grasp on political and logistical realities...

1 - travel time is a couple of hours, max
2 - government is not a one man band (no matter how much a previous Prime Minister tried to make it so) - things are done by discussion and consensus (mostly), rather than by one person on a white charger.
3 - would you rather have an exhaused senior Government team, or one that is refreshed after a break?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

What's "tally ho" got to do with this current crisis, besides using stereotypes to score political points?

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------


Only to those with a tenuous grasp on political and logistical realities...

Denphone stopped being political a while back or hadn't you noticed?

Originally Posted by denphone

It convey's a better understanding to the public if he was to stay at home Chris.

No - holidaying in the UK would merely deny headlines to tabloid newspapers who play on the prejudices of people over a certain age and people who use 'The Continent' as code for an unfathomable, faraway place that is somehow disconnected from the One True Reality that is the United Kingdom.

If he were in a safari lodge somewhere in Kenya you might have a point, but as it is, he is no further away than Tuscany, able to take a phone call at 10 seconds notice and able to be chairing an emergency cabinet meeting in under 4 hours should the need arise.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by denphone

It convey's a better understanding to the public if he was to stay at home Chris.

A better understanding of what exactly?

If it was required then he could easily record a video statement from his current location, however its not required and that is why he hasn't done so.