School gym forced to shut

[punky]

Originally Posted by Chris

And who are you to dictate how they bring their kids up? You don't like it, fine, you're entitled to your opinion. As a matter of fact I'm a bit ambivalent about it myself. But I absolutely defend their right to make their own parenting choices, and I applaud their willingness to back up their convictions with actions and hard cash, paying for their daughters to get the educational environment they want for them.

I defend parents' rights to raise children according to their beliefs but not when those beliefs are tantamount to abuse. Isolating girls from associating freely with the other sex is not only unhealthy for social development, its an abuse of human rights. Amnesty International and the UN with their women's action programs have been riling against this for years.

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

yeah right so when there are photofit images of suspects no one ever sees them yeah yeah

They blew themselves up? What good would photofit images do?

Originally Posted by punky

I defend parents' rights to raise children according to their beliefs but not when those beliefs are tantamount to abuse. Isolating girls from associating freely with the other sex is not only unhealthy for social development, its an abuse of human rights. Amnesty International and the UN with their women's action programs have been riling against this for years.

"Tantamount to abuse" ... is that like saying you'd like to be able to say it's child abuse except that it isn't, really? And are you seriously suggesting, on the evidence available, that the families involved in this situation are treating their daughters in exactly the way Amnesty International has been campaigning about? That would be absolutely extraordinary, if true.

We do seem to have strayed a long way from the topic...

Actually I think we've looped around and aren't so very far away at the moment.

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually I think we've looped around and aren't so very far away at the moment.

Ah another chap who won't ask for directions...

Originally Posted by Damien

They blew themselves up? What could would photofit images do?

no there was the failed attempt remember one of them got out the country in a burka

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

no there was the failed attempt remember one of them got out the country in a burka

was the the one the week after? Could have sworn the 4 bombers died.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Chris

"Tantamount to abuse" ... is that like saying you'd like to be able to say it's child abuse except that it isn't, really? And are you seriously suggesting, on the evidence available, that the families involved in this situation are treating their daughters in exactly the way Amnesty International has been campaigning about? That would be absolutely extraordinary, if true.

Fine, take out the "tantamount to" bit out if you're really going to take the mickey.

The fact is children need to mix freely with both sexes to be able to develop socially and be able to form healthy relationships. This isn't a western concept, its a human concept.

If these parents are unhappy that boys will be passing near to their daughters whilst going in and out the gym, I think its highly unlikely these daughters will be allowed to go out and mix with other children freely, unsupervised. That is exactly what AI campaign about.

Originally Posted by punky

Fine, take out the "tantamount to" bit out if you're really going to take the mickey.

The fact is children need to mix freely with both sexes to be able to develop socially and be able to form healthy relationships. This isn't a western concept, its a human concept.

If these parents are unhappy that boys will be passing near to their daughters whilst going in and out the gym, I think its highly unlikely these daughters will be allowed to go out and mix with other children freely, unsupervised. That is exactly what AI campaign about.

I'm not taking the mickey, I'm trying to find out if you understand the gravity of what you're saying. Some people bandy about the word 'abuse' far too casually.

Originally Posted by Damien

was the the one the week after? Could have sworn the 4 bombers died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_July...ondon_bombings

[punky]

Originally Posted by Chris

I'm not taking the mickey, I'm trying to find out if you understand the gravity of what you're saying. Some people bandy about the word 'abuse' far too casually.

Fair enough.

I consider restricting the free association of children (and adults) to be harmful to their social development and wellbeing. I think harmful and abusive are synonyms here. That's my train of thought leading up into the post.

BTW, i'm not saying as Russ has been accused of in the past that raising children within a religous guise is abusive. Its not. However the devil is in the details.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by punky

The fact is children need to mix freely with both sexes to be able to develop socially and be able to form healthy relationships. This isn't a western concept, its a human concept.

I agree..

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by punky

You're twisting my point and you know it. I specifically tried to head you off on this already:



My parents encouraged me to mix with both sexes of children (and adults) as not only is it completely normal in the western world for male and females to associate freely, its a necessity to help form healthy relationships. You know damn well in the Muslim or Arab world, that's not the case. In many Muslims countries, women aren't allowed in public alone or aren't allowed in the company of an unknown man alone. Some women that are, aren't allowed to even shake hands with men. In a lot of these cases their spouse is chosen for them. You may not like it, but you can't argue it isn't true.

This gym does not affect classes at all. They are still single sex. What the Muslim parents don't like is having boys in and around the school whilst their uncovered girls are walking about in between. If these parents take that Saudi-Arabian attitude then how are the girls going to be free to go out after school and mix freely with both sexes? They aren't.

Before you go on about me being anti-Muslim or racist or whatever, i'm not. I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, but like it or not, some do believe in the hard-line Saudi-Arabian line for their families.

Excuse me but who are you to say that muslim parents who send their daughters to single sex schools are a) stopping their girls from mixing, b) abusing their human rights - as you imply in a further post. In some muslim countries women don't travel alone, or mix freely with men alone, but are you telling me that the mixing of men and women doesn't go on? Additionally you seem to think what happens in Teran and Riyadh is what happens in all muslim homes in the UK?

Anti muslim? racist? All the negative comments in this thread have a totally anti Islamic view to them. The usual generalisations have been made against muslims - rather boring by now. Granted there are countries in the muslim world where men and women dont mix in the open - but for you to conclude that it doesn't happen at all is an ignorant view point. Rather then ask or look at other reasons as to why people might object - i.e the fact that the parents have paid their daughters to go to a single sex school, where in most likelyhood at the time of taking their money, the school assured them it was a single sex environment, that is no longer the case. I.e - you pay for something, half way through your contract its changed, and then you complain.

I went to a single sex school, my sisters went to a single sex school, my nieces went to single sex schools. They all mix freely. You also seem to forget that alot of these girls will end up in mixed universities. Have you been into a london university lately? If not take a look. There are many muslim girls in there in a mixed environment and they have not suffered from going to single sex schools.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I went to a single sex school, my sisters went to a single sex school, my nieces went to single sex schools. They all mix freely.

And that is precisely why my comments aren't anti-Islamic. I would say the same about any religion or culture who believes in the separation in sexes in that way. I am not pointing the finger at Islam but at these parents.

I've explained my reasoning numerous times, if that's not good enough for you, then i'm sorry. Its all you're going to get. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.