MERGED - Prisoner Abuse

[Defiant]

This whole thing makes me sick. They are starting on our people now in Basra yet there's still no concrete proof as to what's happened or been happening. The Mirror has allot to answer for

Do they have shares in arab tv ?

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Defiant

This whole thing makes me sick. They are starting on our people now in Basra yet there's still no concrete proof as to what's happened or been happening. The Mirror has allot to answer for

Even if the Mirror photos turn out to be fake, there is still plenty to suggest that some members of the British forces have been involved in abuse similar to that which the US forces have been involved in.

The QLR was already being investigated about abuse & so on before the Mirror photos were published.

The ICRC (International Red Cross) has reported that abuse occured not only in US-controlled areas but also in UK-controlled areas (such as Basra).

"Violations were 'tantamount to torture' "

Edited extracts of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) report into the treatment of Iraqi prisoners by coalition [US, British and other countries'] forces
The ICRC draws the attention of the Coalition Forces (hereafter called "the CF") to a number of serious violations of International Humanitarian Law. These violations have been documented and sometimes observed while visiting prisoners of war, civilian internees and other persons protected by the Geneva Conventions in Iraq between March and November 2003.

(snip)

According to allegations collected by ICRC delegates during private interviews ill treatment during capture was frequent. While certain circumstances might require defensive precautions and the use of force, the ICRC collected allegations of ill treatment following capture which took place in Baghdad, Basra, Ramadi and Tikrit, indicating a consistent pattern with respect to times and places of brutal behaviour during arrest. The repetition of such behaviour by CF appeared to go beyond the reasonable, legitimate and proportional use of force required to apprehend suspects or restrain persons resisting arrest or capture, and seemed to reflect a usual modus operandi by certain CF battle groups.

(snip)

The main places of internment where mistreatment allegedly took place included battle group unit stations;.....(snip)....the former mukhabarat [Saddam's secret police] office in Basra,....

There are also several reported incidences of abuse by British troops, which are being investigated by the MOD.

Revenge attacks by Iraqis on Coalition forces are not justified.

But neither was the original abuse by Coalition forces.

Do they have shares in arab tv ?

LOL, I doubt it.

They're just trying to do what they & all other papers (left & right-wing) do: sell more copies.

They may not always go about it in a "nice way", but they are not the only ones.

[Xaccers]

Well the MoD has decided the Mirror's photo's are fake and Piers is being unsuprisingly quiet about it.
Turns out we were well aware of the Red Corss' concerns and made changes (such as not using hoods) and investigated claims of abuse.
QLR have demanded a full page appology from the Mirror.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Well the MoD has decided the Mirror's photo's are fake and Piers is being unsuprisingly quiet about it.
Turns out we were well aware of the Red Corss' concerns and made changes (such as not using hoods) and investigated claims of abuse.
QLR have demanded a full page appology from the Mirror.

Yeah, I saw that last night on C4 News.

I doubt that the Mirror will apologise.

There have also been claims that the photos were staged at a barracks in the UK by TA members.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3702139.stm

Abuse photos 'were staged in UK'

The pictures which sparked claims UK soldiers abused Iraqis were staged at a British barracks by Territorial Army (TA) members, it has been reported.

Sources told the Daily Telegraph the photographs were set up in a Bedford MK lorry at Kimberley TA base in Preston.

Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon said it was likely the pictures were a hoax.

The regiment accused of the abuse has demanded an apology from the Daily Mirror for publishing the images, but the paper has stood by their accuracy.

(snip)

In his Commons statement, Mr Hoon said there were "strong indications" the vehicle in the Mirror photos, published last week, had not been in Iraq when the abuse allegedly happened.

"Additional lines of inquiry are being pursued to corroborate this," he said.

The Mirror's reply (from the same link)

...Mirror editor Piers Morgan quickly countered: "The Daily Mirror does not accept that the MoD has proved these photographs are faked.

"Nor will we accept that they are not genuine images until incontrovertible evidence is produced to the contrary."

Earlier the newspaper issued a statement saying Mr Hoon's initial comments about the truck "were obviously designed to divert attention from the much bigger and more important issue" of the abuse it had exposed.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Couple more stories....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3701351.stm

UK troops 'shot harmless Iraqis'

UK troops have killed Iraqi civilians including an eight-year-old girl when they were under no apparent threat, Amnesty International has claimed.
The human rights group claims in "many" cases the deaths of civilians caused by UK troops had not been investigated.

Inquiries were "secretive" and handled by Military Police, its report says.

The claims are the latest in a string of allegations about the behaviour of coalition forces but ministers say many of them are already being investigated.

Separately on Tuesday the High Court ruled that relatives of 12 Iraqis allegedly killed by UK troops would get a full court hearing into the decision not to hold independent inquiries.

The families want the deaths declared a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights, but the UK Government says the convention does not apply in Iraq.

The concerns come after criticisms from the International Committee of the Red Cross emerged on Monday about the way coalition forces have treated prisoners.

(big snip)

And I just saw this on the news....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3705409.stm

Video 'shows US man beheaded'

An Islamic militant website has shown a video purporting to show the beheading of an American in Iraq.
The video - the contents of which could not be verified - showed five men in headscarves and ski masks cutting off the man's head with a knife.

Moments earlier, the victim said he was an American from Philadelphia.

The group, thought to be linked to al-Qaeda, said it was carrying out the execution in retaliation for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers.

(snip)

[TheBlueRaja]

The Mirror claims that the photo's are now -

"An accurate representation of what happened" as opposed to being real.

Words do not come to me at the moment which can satisfactorally sum up my exact feeling about that statement.

Needless to say however i think i would punch Peers Morgan given half a chance.

The original claim was that the mirror risked the lives by making unproven accusations but it is clear from the last few weeks thats its properly true. So the photos may not be true but the event is so morgon will get off.

They shouldn't have done it but its not as bad as before

[Defiant]

Originally Posted by Damien

The original claim was that the mirror risked the lives by making unproven accusations but it is clear from the last few weeks thats its properly true. So the photos may not be true but the event is so morgon will get off.

They shouldn't have done it but its not as bad as before

But thats just it there is no proof yet so the photo's should not have been published in the first place. Now they think its some bloody TA's newb's at a base in Preston that have done those

For some unfortunately seeing is believing and now the extremists on the Islamic side are now justifying their own brutality because of these pictures.

However I don't think that our government did themselves or our troops any favours by not talking about the known allegations a lot more loudly when they were made.This government spends too much time worrying about the polls sometimes.Tell the truth and shame the devil is a truism to live by.

[TheBlueRaja]

Originally Posted by Damien

The original claim was that the mirror risked the lives by making unproven accusations but it is clear from the last few weeks thats its properly true. So the photos may not be true but the event is so morgon will get off.

They shouldn't have done it but its not as bad as before

Yeah its called SPIN, you will get used to that term as you get older, a sad fact of life really.

They published those pictures on the back of the furore regarding the photos stateside to make as much cash as possible, and at the time they claimed they were real. Irrespective of the current situation, irrespective of wether there IS or IS NOT abuses going on by UK soldiers, those photos should NEVER have been published unless they had absolute proof off their authenticity, they didnt even attempt to qualify that.

The damage they have done is irreversable, and im sure is hell that the same Iraqi's / Muslims etc, that saw the abuse in those photos will never see the appology and the retraction from the Mirror.

I know what spin means. But the fact that this acts are true making the pictures being fake not so much of an issue.

[Defiant]

Originally Posted by Damien

But the fact that this acts are true making the pictures being fake not so much of an issue.

1st the pictures will have imflamed the situtation and they will have known this 2nd Can you show us some proof that they are true. We all know what the yanks done but our guys I've heard and seen nothing

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Defiant

1st the pictures will have imflamed the situtation and they will have known this 2nd Can you show us some proof that they are true. We all know what the yanks done but our guys I've heard and seen nothing

No proof of the *actual events* depicted in the (now apparently fake) photos taking place.

But, there have still been plenty of allegations about abuse by UK troops, which are being investigated by the RMP etc. And the Red Cross report also mentioned abuses by UK troops. And the government & military have admitted to some abuses (e.g. the hoods & some other things).

Although, if still occurring, it would appear to be much less widespread & less ongoing & less extreme than the US abuses (at least based solely on the comparison between the sheer volume of info there is about the US abuses compared to the much smaller amount of info etc about any UK abuses...not great reasoning, but you get my meaning...if there was more you could think there would be more reports, like with the US abuse)

And as theblueraja said, the damage is irreversible now - regardless of whether the Mirror does issue any kind of apology

...Mirror editor Piers Morgan quickly countered: "The Daily Mirror does not accept that the MoD has proved these photographs are faked.

"Nor will we accept that they are not genuine images until incontrovertible evidence is produced to the contrary."

This is the *only* time I can think of where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply.

The Mirror have claimed that the pictures are genuine, it should be up to them to *prove* this claim.

Earlier the newspaper issued a statement saying Mr Hoon's initial comments about the truck "were obviously designed to divert attention from the much bigger and more important issue" of the abuse it had exposed.

Which sounds to me like The Mirror trying desperately to divert attention from the hole they've dug themselves into...

[Ramrod]

imo....what was done is beyond the pale but, we can be angry about the prisoner abuse, I really don't think that the Arab world can. Not after spawning animals like this. They should just keep their frigging mouths shut

A video posted today on an Islamic militant Web site shows a group thought to be affiliated with al-Qaida beheading a man who said he was an American from Philadelphia.

He identified himself as Nick Berg -- who was found dead in Baghdad on Saturday.

The executioners said the man was killed in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The video showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit.

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and cutting off his head with a large knife. They then held the head out before the camera.

BBC report These people can teach us a thing or two about abuse....