MERGED - Prisoner Abuse

[punky]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

are the soldiers faces shown?
if so it will be easy to prove its a fake

Nope, the faces wern't shown. I was thinking it could be faked by the anti-war protestors as they have a huge agenda to push and a vested interest in undermining the war effort. What made me think away from that was that the press and the army superiors seemed to know a lot about the people involved, and that they have even suspended the people involved. Now if that turns out to be untrue, I think the possibility of it being faked is quite high.

Danielf: That's fair enough. I wasn't suggesting the people go unpunished at all (i've always said they should have been punished), but it wasn't the army's desicision to release the photos of course, but the Press. But given the predicted huge human cost in lives and trust because of these photos, do you still think they should have been released anyway, even with the soldiers being punished?

I think about it both ways. If I was the boss of ITV News, I would think that releasing the pictures into the public domain would do huge amounts of irrepairable damage, including lost lives, so I would not want to release it. But i'm sure with the money and reputation involved, that some news boss somewhere would come out with it anyway, so it would be best if I did it first.

[Russ]

The Bush administration's detention of hundreds of foreign fighters in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, got dissected last week by the Supreme Court, with some justices questioning the government's right to incarcerate aliens indefinitely without judicial review. But the court arguments may have obscured a potentially bigger embarrassment for the Pentagon: some of the more than 100 Gitmo prisoners who have been released have since turned up back in Afghanistanââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂ�fightin g with Taliban forces against the U.S. military.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld alluded to the problem last month, telling reporters there had been "a mistake in one case" and that a detainee let go last year "has gone back to being a terrorist." But administration officials tell NEWSWEEK that military intelligence has identified at least three additional "revolving door" cases of Gitmo detainees' returning to the battlefield. One released prisoner, Mullah Shehzada, is serving as a "senior" Taliban commander. The officials say that alarming developmentâââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂÂ�as well as information developed about four released detainees sent back to Britainââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂÂ�shows that the Gitmo population is far more dangerous than most of the public understands. Administration officials are especially aghast over the released British prisoners, who U.S. intelligence says are hardened Islamic extremists trained in urban warfare and assassination techniques at Qaeda camps before 9/11; one of them met several times with Osama bin Laden. "Rumsfeld has really been flagging this one hard in interagency meetingsââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�that we need to be careful about who gets released," says one senior administration official.

Source: here.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Russ D

The Bush administration's detention of hundreds of foreign fighters in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, got dissected last week by the Supreme Court, with some justices questioning the government's right to incarcerate aliens indefinitely without judicial review. But the court arguments may have obscured a potentially bigger embarrassment for the Pentagon: some of the more than 100 Gitmo prisoners who have been released have since turned up back in Afghanistanââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂ�fightin g with Taliban forces against the U.S. military.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld alluded to the problem last month, telling reporters there had been "a mistake in one case" and that a detainee let go last year "has gone back to being a terrorist." But administration officials tell NEWSWEEK that military intelligence has identified at least three additional "revolving door" cases of Gitmo detainees' returning to the battlefield. One released prisoner, Mullah Shehzada, is serving as a "senior" Taliban commander. The officials say that alarming developmentâââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂÂ�as well as information developed about four released detainees sent back to Britainââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂÂ�shows that the Gitmo population is far more dangerous than most of the public understands. Administration officials are especially aghast over the released British prisoners, who U.S. intelligence says are hardened Islamic extremists trained in urban warfare and assassination techniques at Qaeda camps before 9/11; one of them met several times with Osama bin Laden. "Rumsfeld has really been flagging this one hard in interagency meetingsââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�that we need to be careful about who gets released," says one senior administration official.

Source: here.

I thought it was a possibility - Due to the lack of oppotunities waiting for former detainees when they arrived home, the political climate in the areas of Afghanistan where the live, and the hatred they feel for the US, but it would be suprising if it is that much. Not least because they they know if they get caught once more, they aren't ever getting out.

Doesn't your post qualify for it's own thread though?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by punky

Doesn't your post qualify for it's own thread though?

Possibly - I may end up splitting this one.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by punky

Danielf: That's fair enough. I wasn't suggesting the people go unpunished at all (i've always said they should have been punished), but it wasn't the army's desicision to release the photos of course, but the Press. But given the predicted huge human cost in lives and trust because of these photos, do you still think they should have been released anyway, even with the soldiers being punished?

Yes, I think it's right they were released. What's more, I would be very angry if I learned later on that these events took place but the photos weren't published. You are right, there may/will be costs associated with it, but have you considered the costs if it came out at a later date that this was known but held back by the press?

At least, at present, it may just be an isolated incident by a few deranged individuals (or perhaps a fake). The cost of a media coverup would be much worse in my opinion (for instance in terms of trust towards the West in general).

[zendawn]

Yes assuming the photos are real, they should have been released.
But they should never have been taken in the first place, nor should the things done in them have occur.
They just add fuel to fire and give more credence to the enemy.

[TheBlueRaja]

Originally Posted by Defiant

After seeing some of these image's I was thinking to myself something looks odd. I've just watched it again on Skynews and someone mentioned that they looked staged. Now they also stated that they think someone from the QLR regiment sent these picture's in. Has anyone thought that these could have been staged here though. I know I can go to Manchester city centre and buy British Army Desert Combats and Boots. None of the people that were supposed to be getting tortured were shown either?. If it were staged that may give the whole thing away though don't you think !



Just something to think about

I was thinking exactly the same thing, the mirror shows photos of an Iraqi soldier getting "urinated on and kicked in the face", but - for crying out loud the biggest suspicious thing is that this guy just happens to be wearing a T-shirt with an Iraqi flag on it, i mean - how convienient. Also ther is NO motion blur on the foot that is supposedly kicking this guy in the face - it looks, if anything, like his foot is pushing at his throat, and not as they claim booting him in the face. And NO shots of any soldiers face so that somebody can be recognised.

Also, it could just be water and they are making him think that he's getting urinated upon, they are supposedly interogating this guy after all, are we supposed to scare him with flowers.

THERE ARE SOOO MANY POSSIBILITES WITH THESE PHOTOS.

Unlike the American ones whereby there is little doubt what is going on.

I think the Mirror needs a good kicking themselves for releasing these pictures without ANY proof whatsoever as to who took them and where, they are not only senastionalising the shots but putting our boys in Iraq in greater danger just to sell more papers and gain more publicity.

The Bas*ards.

[Xaccers]

you don't expect the mirror to let facts get in the way of bashing our forces in Iraq do you?
calling the mirror people *******s is insulting to *******s!

saw the pics on the news, and they do look staged.
good point about the t-shirt
and why take pics if you're worried about your face being shown?

[punky]

Originally Posted by danielf

...but have you considered the costs if it came out at a later date that this was known but held back by the press?

Yeah, I did think about that. If that did happen, hopefully, by the time the June 30th deadline would have passed, and the Iraqi army would of been in control. The only cost to Americans would of been embarassment, loss of trust/appreciatation (if there was any to lose, that is). The human cost would of been much, much smaller. Now, I fear because the photos have come out while the US are supposed to keep control, it would already greatly enraged existing insurgents, but it would also convert any moderates into insurgents to attack the US (and let us not forget, civillian westerners, or any foreigners including aid workers in the country), in revenge. Sure if the photos were initiatially supressed the embarassment would of been much worse at the end, but all that is in my mind at the moment, would be saving lives, not face.

Originally Posted by theblueraja

Also ther is NO motion blur on the foot that is supposedly kicking this guy in the face - it looks, if anything, like his foot is pushing at his throat, and not as they claim booting him in the face.

D'oh, you beat me to it. I only saw the photo of the guy 'kicking' the Iraqi briefly, but as soon as I saw it, I thought it was a fake. Firstly because of the lack of motion blur. I mean, digital cameras aren't bad these days, but at the speed of the kick, would mean that it would have to have a very fast shutter speed. Also, notice how the leg is perfectly in the middle of the shot. Given the speed of the leg, it is interesting how the photographer managed to take the photo at precisely the right millisecond. Even if they kept re-doing it, it would be really tough to catch the leg in that position.

[Mal]

Staged or not?

[punky]

Well, if they were, whoever did it has already won, and it is going to result in a huge amount of bloodshed. People believe what they want to believe, and now the pictures of out, even if some anti-war group admit to staging them, the arab world won't care - they'd still think it's genuine, and react accordingly. I do think it is good that the possibilty of these being fakes is being given serious consideration.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by punky

Well, if they were, whoever did it has already won, and it is going to result in a huge amount of bloodshed. People believe what they want to believe, and now the pictures of out, even if some anti-war group admit to staging them, the arab world won't care - they'd still think it's genuine, and react accordingly. I do think it is good that the possibilty of these being fakes is being given serious consideration.

True.

People, in these sort of situations, tend believe the worst, without question.

[Xaccers]

If they are shown to be fakes (and I suspect they are) then an investigation into the Mirror needs to take place.

[xaq141175]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

If they are shown to be fakes (and I suspect they are) then an investigation into the Mirror needs to take place.

I dream of the day where tabloid journalists are held to account effectively. But they always hide behind the 'freedom of the press' argument ... often abusing it.

If anyone wants political power without being elected ... become a journalist or even better, buy a newspaper.

[Defiant]

Trust the Mirror to be caught out hook hand and sinker. So ruddy gullible. A paper that has been against this from day one. They just thought it was luck that someone/people from the QLR's happened to give them some damning photos. Just glad I stopped reading that crap a long time ago.

TORTURE PHOTOS DOUBTS

The Daily Mirror pictures allegedly taken during his ordeal showed the man being urinated on and threatened.

But according to some newspapers they may not be genuine.

"Were British 'torture' pictures a cruel joke?" asks the Sunday Express.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...077170,00.html

Mind you the media were fast at working this out NOT