Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Bircho ... A minor housekeeping point, but could you please stop posting your replies within quotes. It makes further responses to you much more fiddly than it needs to be. Just type underneath the quote box, it's perfectly easy for the rest of us to follow which points you're responding to.
In reply to your earlier comments, I'm not sure how you thought your assertion that there were no Brits in Spain prior to 1973 due to Franco, was backed up with statistics about property ownership. It's a complete non-sequitur.
The fact is, Spain had a thriving British expatriate community prior to 1973, just as many non-EU countries have them today. Property ownership rules might change; fair enough. The whole referendum question is a balance between the benefits of membership versus the costs. My basic objection to the EU is on grounds of democracy and sovereignty. Such things cannot be valued against the cost of having a Spanish mortgage.
As for UK/France border arrangements, well yes, I know it as definitely as it is possible to know anything (including the continuance of the arrangements in the long term, even if Britain remains in the EU). As I said earlier, these are bilateral arrangements, unconnected with the EU. There is no reason in law or logic for them to change and, frankly, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise.
Regarding exports, well an immediate 7pc drop is a far bigger deal than you are portraying it to be. And yes, when we're talking figures this large, I see no problem rounding to the nearest 5. I note you didn't object to me rounding up the UK's export figure in the same sentence, by a somewhat larger amount.
Regarding food hygiene rules, well you might be confident there are no rats in my kitchen if the rules were effective. Unfortunately, economic reality means I personally am only going to be visited once every five years or so, as I am small and therefor a low priority. The local authority has to visit all these places, incurring the costs as they go, yet each individual premises is inspected so infrequently as to make the whole process worthless. In practice, dirty kitchens are uncovered the same way they always were, by zeroing in on clusters of food poisoning after the fact. The difference now, however, is that the council has wasted a lot of money on pointless inspections in the meantime.
Regarding negotiating times: the period is set out in the Treaty of Lisbon and is 2 years.
The terms of any future deal will be no worse than WTO rules and will be at least as good as those enjoyed by Canada, Norway or Switzerland. I know precedent is awkward for Remainers, but it exists nevertheless.
Regarding immigration: what an absurd assertion to make. Immediate suspension of the right of any EU citizen to settle in the UK and take a job is a pretty fundamental change to the UK's ability to police its borders and manage its workforce. It is plain daft to claim none of these powers would be used as the economy required.
|
So how many Brits lived in Spain prior to 1973?
I think a vastly overlooked fact is that there are as many British citizens living in Europe as there are non British European Citizens living in the UK.
Interesting comments about WTO. Norway pays as much into the EU as we do (actually more) but has to put up with a lot of the rules we have opted out of. Simiarly Switzerland. Think there is much written about this elsewhere.
But just for info, so that we can aspire, these are the European Countries that are not in the EU and the current agreement that they have with the EU.
EEA countries - not in the EU but in Schengen:
Switzerland (Technically also not in the EEA, but is for most practical purposes, and is in Schengen)
Liechtenstein
Norway
Iceland
Micronations not technically in the EU but have monetary agreement with the EU and open borders:
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Vatican City
Central European Free Trade Agreement:
Kosovo
Serbia
Albania
Montenegro
Macedonia
Bosnia & Herzegovena
Moldova (also in GUAM, see below)
GUAM Organization for Democracy and Economic Development
Georgia
Ukraine
The negotiating time you mention is to the time frame for coming out of the EU not for negotiating a new trade agreement.