anti americanism fashionable
 

jack straw has crticised the protesting which is likely insue on to the streets of london when bush arrives as a guest of the queen as 'fashionable'

http://rdu.news14.com/content/top_st...asp?ArID=38776

maybe if bush was not after oil and invading countries which dont fit in to his vision there would not be such a fuss like father like son :rolleyes:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I certainly don't see anti-americanism as fashionable. I think most people (myself included) are just a little weary of the seemingly prevailant attitude 'across the pond' that everything about the US is superior to the rest of the world. From reading various discussion groups it's as if the american way of life is the planetary standard and other customs and ideas are just "strange", "wierd" "different" without realising that they are just one (albeit very large) country amongst countless others.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Someone is always protesting about something - and as always, there will be the young (and not so young) braindead element there whose only purpose is to cause as much trouble as they can (not even really caring what the actual reason for the protest is).

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I quite like America (the country) and generally the American people. The problem is they are extremely insular for the most part.

I don't know the exact figure, but I understand about 90% of Americans do not possess a Passport (i.e. they have never travelled outside of the US) !!

Also when you watch their multitudiness TV news channels, you rarely if ever see any items regarding issues relating to foreign (to them) countries.

They simply are not exposed to foreign cultures and attitudes and probably think the rest of the world thinks exactly as they do.

They are fed an almost non stop diet of how great America is and are extremely patriotic.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

basa: all true.

I personally have no problem with America, or Americans (some of the nicest people I know are American).

Americans do,however, seem to have this attitude that they are right and the whole rest of the world is wrong (and inferior) though.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

It's not so much anti-americanism, it's more anti-american foreign policy. As Russ said, in general the US gives the impression that there is only one way of life and have difficulties comprehending that there isn't. I don't think it's 'fashionable' I think it's more that recent events are making people more aware of the world outside the country and people are seeing things that they don't like.

Comments like this from Jack Straw et al I think are just them trying to dissuade protestors from causing embarressment to them next week.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I don't know the exact figure, but I understand about 90% of Americans do not possess a Passport (i.e. they have never travelled outside of the US) !!
You don't need a passport to travel to Canada. To make the conclusion you're making is just wrong.

Also remember that England is tiny compared to the United States. We can travel all over North America and only visit two countries, but those include 50 states, and 15+ provinces and territories. It isn't like Europe where if you miss the toilet you **** in another country's backyard.

Think of our independent states as independent countries.


Also when you watch their multitudiness TV news channels, you rarely if ever see any items regarding issues relating to foreign (to them) countries.
It doesn't interest us.


They are fed an almost non stop diet of how great America is and are extremely patriotic.
And that is bad how exactly?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I'm anti-anti-american protesters lol. I've seen them in the streets protesting and on telly. 90% jobless layabout's.

Get a job

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Is that England or the UK?



You answered that question when you said...


Which IMO smacks of arrogance.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Jerrek you have to say UK or Britain otherwise the 'lesser countries' (kidding Russ ;) ) like Wales, Scotland and N Ireland feel left out. It's like people using America when they mean the USA.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Or like people claiming that certain Scandinavian countries are part of the UK :erm:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Is that England or the UK?
Same bloody thing. :p

Which IMO smacks of arrogance.
Yes it does. And that is wrong how exactly?


Here is a small test of ignorance. Multiple choice. Don't google! Type your answers in notepad and then reply. Don't look at other's posts before you reply. Be honest.


1) What is the capital of Canada?
a. Montreal
b. Toronto
c. Ottawa
d. Vancouver

2) What is the mountain range that lies parallel to the east cost of the United States?
a. Rockies
b. Mojave
c. Ural
d. Appalacians
e. Pyrinees
f. Pennsylvania Range

3) Which state is the largest of the following?
a. Kansas
b. Nebraska
c. New York
d. Texas

4) Who was Canada's first Prime Minister?

5) Who is Canada's current Prime Minister?



The fact of the matter is, I don't know everything, and I certainly don't expect anyone to do so. What it basically comes down to is that, "Americans are ignorant because they don't pay enough attention to us."


It's like people using America when they mean the USA.
That does annoy me, but I guess what I said must be annoying too. Heh. My apologies.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Actually, that test was biased. What is the capital of Tajikisan? Who is the ruler of Bolivia? What are the major exports of Micronesia?

If you can't answer those questions, you're obviously ignorant. In my book though, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't expect the rest of the world to be able to rattle of all 43 presidents of the United States, all 50 states with their capitals, and know all of the governors, senators, and Congressmen in the United States.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

You've pretty much summed my point up there.

You make some good points there about other countries.

One final question - why is it when the US is planning to bomb the crap out of some country or there appears to be some anti-american feeling in some other land, your President has to go on TV and show 99% of your countrymen where it is?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Doubtful.

I have got a question for you though. On an unlabelled map, can you point out Sierra Leone? Samoa? Uzbekistan?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Our news does that too :rolleyes:. It's just a visual aid thing.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Can you?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I can, but I don't expect everyone to.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I can't:blush:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I reckon I could give it a go.

I'd never be as dispicable to say the US deserved 9/11, but it sure made me curious when after the attack, so many americans couldn't understand why their country is held in such disregard by so many others.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

well, our empire was a geographical rather than a cultural one, so as we owned most of the world at one time or another you would expect us to have a good stab at it... I think I could roughly get all three. Here goes:

Sierra Leone: West Africa
Uzbekistan: Asia, north and west of Afghanistan
Samoa: Polynesia

Now I'm off to Google and see how I did.

EDIT:
He shoots, he scores!!
Uzbekistan: http://www.atlapedia.com/online/maps...Kazakh_etc.htm
Western Samoa: http://www.atlapedia.com/online/maps...al/Pacific.htm
Sierra Leone: http://www.atlapedia.com/online/maps...h_Africa_W.htm

Two spot on, one almost spot on (Uzbekistan) ;)

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...538977,00.html

Comments from http://www.rightwingnews.com

To Hell with Sympathy...

There you go. The columnist nailed it.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Jerrek, you are being very provocative :D
Well, we are the ones who seem to get our noses rubbed in it by the Americans, and by the article he just wrote in particular. Always, again and again with 'we saved you in WW2 so you owe us'.

I'm not being spiteful but just remember that golden ages come and go. The British empire ruled 3/4 of the world and look at us now. Reduced back to a tiny little island full of people who are drinking and debting themselves to ruin. With tabloids that put more interest in someone's breasts than troops in Iraq, trains that won't run on time. And weather that is changing due to global warming.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

That article almost brings a tear to your eye, but those are tears from laughing too much.

From a site called RightWingNews you can hardly expected unbiased reporting, and that article runs the risk of making Fox News look liberal.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

too true :rofl:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Don't get confused. The article he quoted was from Time Magazine. The comments were his own. He doesn't report. He collects news from the web and writes his opinion. And I usually agree with him.

And you're right. Fox News is too liberal. I'd like something more conservative and right.


Now, some more news on why the United States is so hated. Or rather, envied:

http://www.economist.com/displayStor...ory_id=2172052

From The Economist:

There is nothing more satisfying than being told by a popular and respected foreign journal that you are exceptional and unique. Especially when what they say makes sense and it doesn't rape common sense on the way.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Good point there man:

Interesting, when I taught history at a large London FE college I had many students who had no idea where to find on a map blanked out: France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc etc, they had no idea at all!

People may be critical that of US citizens not knowing their world geography but there are plenty here in the UK who don't know theirs.

:eek:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, america isn't hated for it's success. It's for the "we're the best, the rest of you suck" attitude which seems to be so prevailant.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

And yet you continue to rub it in :D. That is one persons opinion and the article seems more to do with Americas resources than people, I think you are reading into a small compliement too much.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

....and continuing on americans dictating to the world, they are now telling us why they are so disliked...the mind boggles.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Hey, if I'm disliked by people that like to fly planes into buildings and blow themselves up amongst women and children, I feel good. I'd be rather troubled of they like me.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, what those Al Q'eda (sp) nuggets did was pathetic (well it was a LOT more than pathetic but we've been over that a million time before) and you are entitled to be proud of being american (I'm just as patriotic) just like all 250 million of you are, just don't start asking "Why" when other nations aren't as impressed :)

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

If I'm disliked by pompous Americans who serve only their interest and wouldn't know self-criticisium if it danced naked on a harpsicord - I feel good.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Not everyone who hates the US is a terrorist.

I don't hate the Americans and Canadians as such, but they do have this attitude that they are far superior to anyone else. Which, IMO, is certainly not the case.

Anyway, Jerrek, if America and Canada are so great, how come you don't speak your own language. AFAIK the three most spoken languages are English, French and Spanish..

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

But what you are failing to take into account here is that if they liked you then they wouldn`t flying planes into your buildings. It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, I think it takes a real special kind of a**hole to do what they did. People like that need someone to hate and they don't need much excuse.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

He does, it's Afrikaans!:p

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I stand corrected...

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Oh hang on, they also have ebonics.

Apparently the Ebonics for "You are beautiful, I would like to make love to you" translates to "Dayum biatch, you stupid fly, lemme pull up to dat bumper and smak dat monkey" :D

More can be found here, be warned however, some choice language can be found therein :)

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, what those Al Q'eda (sp) nuggets did was pathetic (well it was a LOT more than pathetic but we've been over that a million time before) and you are entitled to be proud of being american (I'm just as patriotic) just like all 250 million of you are, just don't start asking "Why" when other nations aren't as impressed
The fact of the matter is, I'm patriotic and I'm proud of what I am. That doesn't sit well with the continental Europeans. I will, WILL, take care of my own country first, and the rest of the world later.

I don't hate the Americans and Canadians as such, but they do have this attitude that they are far superior to anyone else. Which, IMO, is certainly not the case.
Look: I want to be American and Canadian, and nothing else. You want to be English (or Scotish, or Welsh, or Irish), and nothing else. We all believe that our way is the right way and that we are a little better than the rest of the world. In the grand scheme of things, that might or might not be the case. Each country has its merits. Some more than others.

That attitute of being superior to anyone else is called patriotism. We are damn proud of who we are, what we have accomplished, and what we believe. To people that disagree with the way we do things, that has got to be annoying. *shrug* Deal with it.

Anyway, Jerrek, if America and Canada are so great, how come you don't speak your own language. AFAIK the three most spoken languages are English, French and Spanish..
You forgot Mandarin. And we do speak our own language as you Brits like to point out: American. :)


But what you are failing to take into account here is that if they liked you then they wouldn`t flying planes into your buildings. It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
Not really. I wouldn't want to be friends with people like that regardless whether they like me or dislike me. If their culture teaches them to do things like that, they are just WRONG.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The English could do with more of that attitude....

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

your so right not like tony blair who 'folds' under the pressure of the euro ministers :2up:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Lets not go there!

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The whole point of the original post to which I was replying was in the context of the terrorists *not* hating the USA. If they didn`t hate the USA they wouldn`t fly planes into their buildings, it really isn`t a difficult concept to understand.

Your view of the world seems to be shockingly narrow. Are you honestly stating that the hate of these terrorists is something innate that would be expressed anyway, and that they just happen to have picked on the USA for some reason? You need to take into account the reasons for the hate, and as wrong as the events of 9/11, the USA pretty much had it coming for a long time, and they just brought it upon themselves.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Sorry, I got the impression that the USA were taking care of the rest of the world, only to paraphrase Father Ted, they seem to be doing it in an Al Pacino kind of way.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I think it's you that has the narrow view. You despise the USA so much that you find it possible to say 'they had it coming'.

Does the rape victim 'have it coming' because she wears a short skirt for a night out?

Nobody, but nobody, whatever they have done, deserves to have this happen to them, just because someone else doesn't like the politics of their government.

How can you argue against the invasion of Iraq? Surely, by your measure, Saddam 'had it coming' too?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The problem is they don't see it or refuse to except it. Their blatent support of Israel has got the eastern Muslims to dislike them, the refusal of the chiototo accord didn't go down well in europe, and the Iraq issue and offended the UN. And the best they can come out with is 'we saved you in WW2 from the nazi so you have to like us'.

I've seen a website owned by a right-wing american and he said he would ban the entire contenant of europe from posting on it if he could. He then adds 'with the exception of the UK' because apparrently we are full of culture and good because we supported them in the war.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

This is a foolish analogy. The rape victim isn`t going around trying to make everyone else fall in step with their line of thinking, stomping all over anyone who disagrees with them.

But the USA does take that attitude. You're either with them or against them as their president pointed out. So the situation is simple, dance to our drum or you are the enemy. It's no wonder they are hated so much. They are as dictatorial as Saddam ever was.

I never stated that they necessarily "deserved" 9/11, but that doesn`t negate the possibility of them having brought it upon themselves.

I've also never stated that action shouldn`t have been taken against Iraq. My issue is with the manner in which that was taken, with the USA and the UK conveniently ignoring international law when it suits them. They do not have the right to commit a pre-emptive strike without a clear and present danger. North Korea is constantly threated by the USA, by the actions of Bush it has been demostrated that they have every right to pop a nuke off to the California.

The USA is hated by many people for the way it treats the rest of the world, and until it realises that it can't go around dictating how the governments of other countries are run under the threat of force it will continue to risk these attacks. But as a country it is far too dumb and arrogant to bother questioning why people despise them in the first instance.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

He is not suggesting they deserved it, merely that the event didn't come as a surprise.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Thanks for the backup, it's nice to see that there are other people that can take into account the wider context.

As for despising the USA, I think that does pretty much sum up my feelings about the country at the moment, but I've only had that opinion since Bush came to power. As soon as democratically elected leader is in power, and preferably a Democrat, then there is every chance that they will redeem themselves.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a patriot as "a person who vigoursly supports their country and is prepared to defend it", so you are being patriotic by supporting your country.

It also defines arrogant as "having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities".

Believing you are better than everyone else is arrogant.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Good article here http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackage...1&section=news

I especially like this comment from one american ex-pat living in London:

Edit Lol, this comment from G. Bush really does show just how out of touch with reality he really is:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Are you honestly stating that the hate of these terrorists is something innate that would be expressed anyway, and that they just happen to have picked on the USA for some reason? You need to take into account the reasons for the hate, and as wrong as the events of 9/11, the USA pretty much had it coming for a long time, and they just brought it upon themselves.
I have no idea why they would act in such a manner. I just know that *I* wouldn't. And, since they have demonstrated what kind of people they are, I have no itention of pleasing them or making them happy. I don't want such friends. Apparently, you want such friends.

You just demonstrated your hatred for saying "You had it coming." What a completely and utterly stupid comment. Signs of a narrow mind. What exactly did the United States do to deserve it, as you put it?

Sorry, I got the impression that the USA were taking care of the rest of the world, only to paraphrase Father Ted, they seem to be doing it in an Al Pacino kind of way.
Not completely, otherwise Mugabe wouldn't be in power. But we do look out for ourselves and our allies.


Their blatent support of Israel has got the eastern Muslims to dislike them
My apologies for not making extremist Muslims--that beat their wifes, rape their prisoners, fly planes into buildings, and blow themselves up among women and children--happy. There are plenty of followers of Islam that I can live with and be friends with. But those extremist Muslims I really don't care about.

What about those recent comments by Mahattir? "Jews are ruling the world." SO WHAT?


the refusal of the chiototo accord didn't go down well in europe
Because we didn't want to dance to the Europeans' stupid rules. Hah. Kiss my ass. You go ahead and ruin your economy. Meanwhile, we will just continue living in prosperity. It isn't the United States that have double digit unemployment figures and negative economic growth...

and the Iraq issue and offended the UN
We really don't care for the United Nations. I hope those Congressmen that stated they want to get the United States out of the U.N. are working on it. The U.S. has violated more U.N. regulations than any other nation and should be kicked out of it if we don't withdraw from it ourselves.

And the best they can come out with is 'we saved you in WW2 from the nazi so you have to like us'.
You are rather narrowminded if this is all you see.


This is a foolish analogy.
No it is not. You just don't like it because it illustrate the point towny was making so very nicely and it doesn't fit with your narrow view of the world.

But the USA does take that attitude. You're either with them or against them as their president pointed out.
Exactly.

So the situation is simple, dance to our drum or you are the enemy.
I believe he was referring to the war on terror. So yep.

It's no wonder they are hated so much.
Because we want to get rid of terrorists? The same ones you seem to have quite a nice understanding with?

I never stated that they necessarily "deserved" 9/11, but that doesn`t negate the possibility of them having brought it upon themselves.
You have a short memory. You said, "They had it coming."

My issue is with the manner in which that was taken, with the USA and the UK conveniently ignoring international law when it suits them.
There is no such thing as international law. We don't recognize it. If you dislike that, well, deal with it.

They do not have the right to commit a pre-emptive strike
Yes we do. Deal with it.

North Korea is constantly threated by the USA, by the actions of Bush it has been demostrated that they have every right to pop a nuke off to the California.
North Korea is all mouth with nothing else. Besides, China and Japan are dealing with it, for the time being.

The USA is hated by many people for the way it treats the rest of the world
read: no free handouts from the rich people of the States.

But as a country it is far too dumb and arrogant to bother questioning why people despise them in the first instance.
Ah, as I said, it really isn't in our best interest to dance to the rest of the world. 80% of the world is a toilet. Do we really want to do what they say? I mean, there is a reason why the rest of the world is in such a crappy state.

As soon as democratically elected leader is in power, and preferably a Democrat, then there is every chance that they will redeem themselves.
Ignoring your obvious lack of education regarding the 2000 election, if Bush wins by a landslide victory, we will of course redeem ourself, right? It is very unlikely that a Democrat will win. Three key democrat states lost 2 electoral votes each and it was given to Florida, Texas, and another southern state due to population shifts. If all else remains the same, with just the shift in electoral votes, Bush will win with more than 8 electoral votes.

And now looking how the Democrats are losing in the south makes it really hard for them to win. They lost California's gubernational race. And Louisiana and Kentucky. One Georgia senator, a Democrat, threw in his support for President Bush. The Republicans will most likely gain more seats in the Senate and House in the 2004 election, as well as retaining the White House.

The only reason you like a Democrat is because they are more inclined to dance to the rest of the world's demands. Which I don't want, which is why I vote Republican.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

And an extremely large part of that 80% is the United States...

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Jerrek,

That is such a nice summary of reasons why people dislike the US.

There is no international law? I guess the people at the international court of justice are just making things up in the war crime tribunals?

Geneva Convention?
Not for the people at Guantanamo Bay, as they are not prisoners of war, but illegal combatants, cought in the war on terrorism.

Kyoto?

Never mind the world is going to pots, blame the Chinese, Indonesians, Brazilians for burning trees. The US is per capita one of the largest contributors to Greenhouse gases but you can't be bothered to so anything about it, for fear of the economy.

And to top it off, you will not be held accountable for possible warcrimes committed by your soldiers. As a special court is being set up in The Hague to deal with war crimes anywhere in the world, you refuse to sign up, and use your wealth to coerce developing countries into signing treaties saying they won't deliver your soldiers to this court.

What's that? Covering your back for another unjust war for personal gain? Surely, you feel that war crimes must be prosecuted. Why not if they're committed by Americans?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

That was not what I was referring to, and you know it. I'm referring to third-world countries.

We do not recognize that "court" of "justice." It is a politically motivated instrument to get some control over the U.S. justice system. What exactly is wrong with our own courts? Why go after Tony Blair and George W. Bush, but Saddam, Mugabe, and the guy from North Korea is free? It is a farce. So, NO international law (we are a sovereign nation), and no "court" of "justice."

Please. Like Saddam adhered to the Geneva Conventions. But I don't see you go after him. Hmmm, I wonder why? Could it be that ...?

Which of these conventions did the United States break, by the way?

Kyoto is a socialist system designed to take money away from first world nations and send it to third-world dicators' pockets. We have no interest in that.

I guarantee you a soldier guilty of misconduct will be tried before a military tribunal. There is no need for the rest of the world to appoint themselves as judges over us.

First problem. Lovely little self-appointment of the European Union, wouldn't you say?

Provided the "crimes" are commited by an American or other person of the western world (Saddam, Mugabe, and the other dictators can be overlooked because they are the greatest humanitarians in history.)

Damn right.

Coerce? We simply ask them to sign a treaty with us. What is wrong with that?

OH WAIT!!!! It isn't approved by the Europeans! How CAN we do something without Europe's approval?!!!

The majority of Iraqis are going to disagree with you on this "unjust" part.

You're making an assumption that we don't prosecute war crimes. We do, unless you can provide conclusive proof that it is U.S. policy not to. In any case, I find it mildly amusing how you liberals are so concerned about us Americans, but Mugabe's little humanitarian missions in Africa is A-OK.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Do you think that those people living in those countries particularly like it? Do they enjoy living from day to day not knowing whether they will have enough to eat? Do you think that they enjoy living in fear? I suspect not, it's not their fault that they were born into this part of the world, no more than it's your fault that you were born in a free country where you could be provided with freedom, education and a good standard of living.

I'm not saying that you should apologise for this, because as I said, this is no-ones fault but simply dismissing the rest of the world as 'a toilet' and saying it's their own problem is no way to deal with things.
It's under these conditions that terrorism thrives, branding all these people as terrorists is not right, the terrorists are the minority...unfortunately the minority with the power (read weapons).

We all live on one planet, 'if a butterfly flaps it's wings...' as the saying goes. Without help, these third world countries will never be able to move beyond the state they are in at the moment and that help can only come from first world countries. Things like Kyoto are there to address these problems, ignoring them and continuing to support one countries economy at the expense of another is a sure way to bring eventual destruction on everyone. The same goes for any country, not just the US.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I have no idea. Some of them, no. Some of them, yes. Some of them are particularly eager to express how bad the western lifestyle is and that us "infidels" should all die. So, if they want to live in such crappy conditions because Allah tells them to, or if you would rather have your child die than to slaughter one of the quadzillion cows on the street and feed your child, whatever. I'm not about to force my beliefs onto you.

Except that I wasn't. I'm a refugee. Regardless, that isn't the point.

The point is, these same people keep electing numbskill idiotic dictators. WHY is it that Africa is incapable of governing themselves? WHY? Yes, now someone is going to call me racist, but I don't care. It is the truth. I do pity the people that live in bad conditions, but damn, STOP ELECTING and SUPPORTING dictators!

You know, I really don't want to tell the rest of the world how to live and what to do. I think I'll just ignore them. If we don't, people yell at us for unilateral action. And for U.S. imperialism. And other crap. Who are YOU to say to another person in another country how he should be living his life?

And then you get 4/5 of the world angry at the U.S. for not giving out free handouts. Big whoopie ****. If you want to increase your standard of living, stop electing and supporting dictators, implement a free enterprise capitalistic economic system, deal with crime (executing anyone that rape, murders, or kidnaps is a good start), and get rid of the religions in the government.

I completely disagree. Germany came out of a mess in under 5 decades. So did Japan. And countless other countries. If these people are serious about fixing their countries, start implementing some basic common sense practices. It isn't MY job and my country's job to fix up other countries.

Like redistributing the wealth from first world nations to dictator's pockets.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I think this thread just about sums it all up! Jerrek, when you live in a community with others (such as the US with the rest of the world) you simply must compromise on some things, however the US seems completely incapable of doing that and thinks there's nothing wrong with it and still wonders why terrorists will blow up buildings there. No, it's not because your country is the ultimate super power on Earth, it's because of your (country's) attitude.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

What attitude exactly? And are you saying that justifies the terrorists actions? Because, in my mind, no matter what a person's attitude is, it does not warrant such action.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

To sum up Jereks post, we can do what we want and disobey international law because they [sadam and extremists muslims] did it first.

It seems to me that the constituion should be altered to read 'liberty and justice for all ... on the condition of living in America and supporting the governments views' hmmm sounds like certain communist idealisms.

In that list you wrote off most of the world as 'we don't care what they say' isn't that what we've been saying is wrong all along.

I will repeat my question: 'when was sadam involved in a terriorist attack on American soil?'

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Saddam was a threat to Israel, our loyal ally.

As for the rest of your post, I really don't get where you're getting it from.

For example, I very specifically stated that there is no such thing as international law (for us) because we are a sovereign state. Period.

The Constitution also only applies to Americans. Do you even know what communism is?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Sorry for the late reply:

Actually you misconstrue my post...I didn't make any conclusion...just pointing out Americans rarely travel outside their country, which limits their experience of foreign culture.

But in fact they are not...the different states are still American with American culture and only regional variations.

I know !!

Did I say it was bad ? On the contrary I think it is laudable and wish it were more apparent here. (Unfortunately patriotism here is so often seen as 'racist' !!)

My post was not intended as criticism...just an observation as to why America seems oblivious to the problems of rest of the world.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

People like this need someone/something to hate. If it wasnt the US it would be another country, if they didnt hate the US for whatever reason they hate it for they would hate it for some other reason. Rather like the belligerent type you get in a pub who is spoiling for a fight and just looking for an excuse, if he dosn't pick on you it will be someone else instead. 'It really isn't a difficult concept to understand'

Yes, you have to be a special type of person to do what they did-see above.
I find your apologism for mass murder and terror disturbing

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Can I just add....

I theink the reason the US is hated as much as it is, especially from within Europe is that the US insists that THEY won the second world war. Hey can I just point out to all the Americans that read this, there were a couple of other countries fighting too you know? When did the second world war start? hey 1939?? bloody hell a few years before the US entered heh. What happend specifically between 10th July and 31st October 1940?

Yeah Great Britain took on and defeated the mighty German luftwaffe thereby halting any German invasion. who helped us then? Certainly not the US there may have been a few american pilots that came here to fly but it wasnt official.

Then again jerrek the article you posted states that the Saudi's shuod thank the US because they stopped them becoming an Iraqi citizen, sorry but I understood that it was Kuwait not Saudi that was invaded by Iraq. And again there were more countries than the US fighting there.

The second gulf war, not just the US.

There is also a feeling of distrust because even during the Falklands war where incidently the US condemned us for fighting, there were rumours that there were American mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians.
Then there was all the hassle that we faced because we allowed US jets to take off and bomb Libya, did the US help us out there? Nope they sttod by and watched us take the flak.

Then we approach the Irish Americans, the people that convinced the "most powerful country in the world" to support the IRA. Thats Support the IRA in their campaign to blow up city centres, maiming and killing hundreds of innocent women and children and thats only in the England, god only knows what they spent the money on in Northern Ireland or how many innocent women and children were killed there.

We now appraoch the issue that leaves the greatest distastre in my mouth, the innability of the US troops to identify a friendly target before firing.
In GULF WAR 1 we lost a few soldiers because a US pilot ignored the NATO markings on a british convoy and open fired on them.
GULF WAR 2 well there were several incident, but I will mention the RAF tornado crew who clearly had IFF signals, coming in to land and were shot down with a patriot missile. The excuse.....the Americans were jumpy because one of their own threw greanades around the camp.

That is why a lot of people do not like the US in my oppinion and I am one.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Mass murder, battle for liberation, military campaign - The term that gets applied is not dependent on the act, but on who wins to write the history books.

The Mujahideen fighting against the occupying Russian forces are seen as freedom fighters, the IRA fighting against occupying British forces are seen as terrorists. At the end of the day there is no difference.

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Ok then, what do you call flying civilian planes into civilian buildings then?!
Stop hiding behind words and rose tinted glasses!

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Can I just clear up any confusion, I have never said or implied that america deserved any terrorist attack.

This 'attitude' I speak of is the one which makes america feel it isn't bound by international law, that it ownes the world, that everything on earth needs to be done the american way etc etc. By all means be proud of your country, you are free to do that but with that liberty comes the responsibilty to be respectful of other countries and they way things are done there.

America shares this planet with other nations and therefore should behave responsibly and respectfully - only you (generically) don't.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

America IMO is, as someone earlier said, hated not so much for being successful (which in itself is open to debate), but more for their arrogance in that most of that success is derived from careless abuse of lesser countries assets (oil / timber/etc ??) and selective contracting to rebuild the countries they have smashed to bits.

I find it unusual that Britain is not hated quite so much, since most of the troubles in the Middle East were spawned in 1919 when Lloyd George decided to grab Iraq and Palestine (and set the seeds for the creation of Israel) rather than grant the area self rule.

Then again the US arrogance at first supporting Saddam's Iraq to defeat Iran who threatened their allies of Kuwait and Saudi, but then following that, a US empowered Iraq had then to be removed as a threat to Israel !!! Talk about pulling strings ?? USA then went on to to encourage Kuwait to provoke Iraq with economic sanctions with the inevitable result of Iraq attacking Kuwait (exactly what USA, Britain and Iraq wanted - but for different reasons !!) Don't forget here..Britain created Kuwait to avoid Iraq having sea ports amongst other reasons ! They now had the perfect reason to attack Iraq !! Further arrogance was the allies leaving large scale presence in Saudi to antagonise...guess who...Bin Laden !

The rest is well known !!

No US is not hated for success and patriotism, but for its arrogance and world manipulation for its own ends.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I`m honestly not sure that there is any difference between terrorism and a military strike these days, especially when you see the way certain countries such as the USA and Israel conduct themselves.

If, as Bush claims, this is a war, then by definition 9/11 was military action.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

And evidence for that is....

Let's look at this hyperthectically.

If Iraq doesn't have any WMD as the evidence now suggests. And if we put the whole Sadam being insane thing asside. Then the USA invaded a country and removed it's government simply because it thought it was threat and had the resources to do it. they then gain money from the rebuilding contracts - this would make the US a conquorer. they now occupy land they have no right over and are making money from it's resources.

So if they think france is a threat will they do the same with them. If I think the US is a threat to international security can I try to overthrow Bush? Oh wait I'm not a state.

Hyperthetically if France say the US is a state 'terrorising' the middle east and are a threat to them, does that give them the right to invade the USA?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

OK. Fair enough. The extremists in any religion are bad. You do seem to tar everyone with the same brush though. I know muslims that would never cause harm to anyone.
You are viewing the whole problem of dictatorship in a rather simplistic way. Not all dictators are elected. AFAIK very few are.
Aren't the US busy telling other countries how to live?

While I agree that some countries need to be tougher on crime, and while I am not relgious you should NOT ban religion from Government.

Because the US government would *never* do that. (hint: Who financed Saddam?)

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Sorry to be picky, but a Sovereign state is ruled by a Monarch. Last time I checked, Canada and America did not have a royal family. You are a republic.
So the americans can kidnap and keep anyone else they want in their country?

Communism is a failed experiment in socialism (ie government owns and runs everything put simply), Capitalism is far better.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I don't think any other thread on this forum has shocked me the way this one has. The blind hatred for the United States displayed by some folks here is very saddening indeed. Glib phrases like 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' and 'I'm honestly not sure that there is any difference between terrorism and a military strike these days' put some members of this forum in the same league as Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, cynically regretting the deaths of innocent people but inwardly feeling it is somehow justified. But of course, I expect some people in this forum consider Sinn Fein to be heroes of freedom as well.

It would be easier to cope with all this negativity towards the USA if it was in part due to a sense of pride in our own nation - hey, you guys aren't the best, we are! - but no, all we see is self-loathing and post-colonial guilt. Some of you people need to learn to get over yourselves or else why bother getting out of bed in the morning?

I am not an apologist for the American Way. I don't agree with everything they do. But to return to the title of this thread, it saddens me that it is so popular to be anti-American at the moment. There is not a little jealousy in evidence here.

Empires are the way of the world. We had one, not so long ago. Now it's their turn. At least the 'weapons' of US imperialism are generally Hollywood films and Big Macs. If we were facing down the USSR or China at this point, it would be concentration camps and T-55s.

Things could be a whole lot worse. As Jerrek is so fond of saying, deal with it.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Yes I do know. My relatives were anti-communist in a communist conquered country and therefore weren't allowed to work and thus to recieve money. Whenever the local governor wanted to look firm on the captolists they would be imprisioned without warning in the middle of the night.

A lady in America was put on the 'no-fly' list purely because she was the editor of an anti-war news letter. The FBI have refused to explain why or remove her from it. It would seem people are being penalised for disagreeing with the government and practicing 'free speech'

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Military action does not allow for deliberate strikes against civilian targets, targeting civilians only.
I could stomach terrorism if the terrorists attacked military targets, I would feel that their actions were justified in some way. What I find reprehensible is when they attack civilians (some of whom probably are their own countrymen)

I ask you again, what do you call the attacks on the twin towers?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

As Towny mentioned the main thing about america and the western world is it's economic wealth, the world trade centre is the symbolic link to that. The pentagon was the symbolic link to the military and the white house was the link to the international polictical bias. These people can't attack military targets because they are well defended and secret.

Remember these people are religiously fueled - they prefer symbolisum over practicallity.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

There are many American base's that are not secret, andrews etc. It does not take a genius to find them and if your going to crash a commercial jet into it then even if shot down there would be lots of damage.

What happened on 9/11 was a huge shock to the US, it should have been a kick in the pants for them to have such a large scale terrorist atack on their own soil and they should have taken a long look at thier international profile. However the US has taken it upon it self so send in a large scale military attack on a country rather than use its Intelligence services to go after the leaders behind it.

Dont get me wrong Saddam and Bin Ladden are terrorists and should be removed from power. Attacking a few countrys whilst doing that? Maybe not the best way. With all the military might the US has why are they still fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan???

For the record I think America is a nice place, they just need to work on their international relations a bit.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

In fact, isn't an elected dictator an oxymoron.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Not entirely you could elect one person with absolute power, but they must hold a electon after a certain time. Problem is they don't want to.

Works in theory - not in practice.

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Yes, some of them, in the main the minority. All most of these people want is to get on and lead happy lives. You also forget that they know nothing different, they don't have the choices of how they are brought up so their beliefs are formulated based on experience. Education, understanding and compromise is the only way to help this.

Again, you are referring to other people in a derogatory fashion. Cow's I would have no problem killing to feed my child, other human beings I would have to be pushed very very far before considering that choice.

Then I would have thought that you would have more understanding. You or your parents or whoever escaped but millions can't, and would you be happy for all those who wish to to enter and live in America?

As far as I understand it, dictators often aren't elected, it's the minority siezing power. In times of strife and hardship, dictorships thrive, look at pre-war Germany, or are you saying that all of those people were as evil as Hitler and that's why he came to power?

I don't want to tell the world how to live, but actions have consequences and I want people to see and understand this so that the negative consequences of peoples actions are mitigated.


I believe that the countries you mention had help.

Redistributing the wealth to people so that people have a fair chance in life, I'm all for removing brutal leaders of undemocratic regimes.

I'm sorry Jerrek, I realise that as one of the few Americans (the only one?) on this board that you must feel like you are being backed into a corner and probably your opinions are polarising more than you mean for them too. I'm not anti-americam, just anti-prejudice.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Hmm, the initials TB are flashing in my mind at this point :D

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Yes, any British political party with an overwhelming Commons majority could be seen as an 'elected dictatorship'. Thatcher was accused of this, and Blair is now as well. But then I think this is unsurprising, as Blair is clearly Maggie's genetically re-engineered experiment for holding on to power :p

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I was thinking more of when the time comes for him to go, I can see him clinging onto the doorframe of no.10 screaming that he doesn't want to go :LOL:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The Russians took over Afghanistan, when the local population fought back they were regarded as freedom fighters. The English annexed a vaste swathe of Ireland, I think that the Irish had every right to fight to reclaim the land that was rightfully theirs.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

OK, so let's be absolutely clear about this. Are you saying that you believe this was justified in the name of a Republic of all Ireland?

Incidentally, the Loyalist population of Northern Ireland are largely descended from Scots, not English. ;)

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

It's all swings and roundabouts, was Bloody Sunday justified?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I've always thought of him as "Thatcher Lite". The version for people who don't want to admit they like the full thing..

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Answer the question m8.

Well do you?

For the record, I think the shooting of unarmed civilians without provocation is despicable. Even if the army was shot at first, they were aware that the crowd was largely a peaceful civil rights movement and should not have started spraying the place with bullets.

It is possible that the IRA was using that peaceful crowd as cover and if they were, and if they did shoot first, I would be suspicious that it was a cynical ploy to goad the Army into a firefight in which everyone must have realised civilians would get hurt.

I have no trouble condemning such actions. How about you?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

From an objective viewpoint, we would have no problems if this was done to the occupying Russian forces in Afghanistan. In this case the British are the occupying force, so they have to expect the same sort of action. I don`t think that justified and correct necessarily equate.

I find it quite hypocritical to condemn the battle for liberation when we are the ones on the receiving end, whereas we would be applauding such actions if they were taken against some other regimes. A bomb of this type in an area of Iraq with strong loyalty to Saddam Hussein would be interpreted as an act of defiance against a dictator. Ok, so we aren`t being dictators over to Ireland, but we are the occupying force.

Whoever wins writes the history, sometimes you need to stand back and be objective.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Exactly, we all know Sadam deserved to be removed, but the way it was done wasn't justified.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The Warrington bomb didn't kill any soldiers. It killed two young children who were out shopping with their parents and injured a lot of others. Their names were Tim Parry and Jonathan Ball. Did you click the link? Here is is again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2544121.stm

So, again: In your opinion, is deliberately blowing up children the correct way to achieve a united Ireland?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, but when bombs hit children in Iraq people except it as accidents of war.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I don't think planting a bomb in a shopping centre with the sole aim of maiming and killing civilians is quite the same as targeting an armed enemy and accidentally killing bystanders.

However I feel the need at this point to remind you that personally I'm a pacifist and cannot condone killing people ever, for any reason. To that extent, I agree with you. :(

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

We are digressing. No-one deserved September 11 but it wasn't unexpected and we must understand the reasons behind it and why the terriorists thought it was justified

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I agree, the terrorists' own justification for this is interesting, but several pages back Ramrod posted an article from the Times which was roundly condemned by some folks in this thread because of the 'agenda' of the person who wrote it. If it's valid to question an opinion based on the agenda of the one expressing it, then I think the agenda of those expressing opinions in this thread is also a legitimate line of enquiry.

At the moment, I am very disturbed indeed by some of the agendas I believe are being portrayed in some posts in this thread.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

My agenda:

I liked America in democratic rule
when George Bush was elected I said to myself 'a disaster is going to happen and he's going to handle it badly'
Sept 11th happened, I was obviously furious at the terriorists and sympathetic for america. But again I said to myself 'oh god what are they going to do'
I accepted the war against Aufghanistan since Alqueda was based there. I became outraged when George Bush started to say things like it is the policy of his government to remove sadam. How can your policy be to overthrow a foreign leader? Then the Iraq thing started when Iraq hasn't done anything since the last time we bombed them. They have found no WMD, the war had no reason to it now that could have been applied before sept 11th.

The patriot act is taking away civil liberities and the prisoners in thingy bay are just terrible contradictions to what americans are suppose to believe in

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Here's mine (I kind of mentioned this when the thread started anyway):

I like America. I like the American people. Their optimism for the future and their national pride are something I wish there was more of in this country.
I am a Christian. My understanding of the New Testament absolutely forbids me to take part in, or condone, death and violence of any kind; I am a man of peace, just as my Lord is.
I recognise that the New Testament comments widely on secular politics - starting with Jesus' own words, 'those who live by the sword, die by the sword.'
The whole business of conflict sickens me. But as the people engaged in it have chosen that path, I offer an opinion upon it, attempting to gauge 'right' and 'wrong' from within that world view.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The question still stands, no-one has answered it. Just avoided it!
Here it is again:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Europe was getting a royal spanking by Germany and Italy before the United States came in, and Winston Churchill said that. Yes, the other nations helped, but it was by large American forces that were responsible for putting order back into Europe.

Just like today, it is Americans that keep the peace in Europe.

All of two people. (ignoring the British military though, they did contribute quite a bit.)

I wasn't aware my government supported the IRA. Mind providing some sources?


Russ, North Korea isn't bound by "international law." And neither is Iraq. Or Libya. Or countless other countries. We are a sovereign nation. Respect that. If you don't, well, *shrug.*


Oh please. I don't believe that, and I certainly didn't believe it back then. And, the United Nations certainly didn't believe it either, because in ruling 1441 they declared that Iraq had WMD and that they were to show IMMEDIATELY proof of it being dismanteled, which they failed to do.


Damn right. And I support them in that.


Meanwhile the war costs $1 billion a week, and we just gave Iraq $87 billion. Yep, so profitable.


Oh I see. Bush is a worse guy than Saddam right?


By all means. If you can't solve your situations diplomatically, war usually follows. I will resepct their right to declare war on the United States. Just keep in mind we won't send troops over to support them in that.


scastle, you're being very dumb. Two points.

Sovereign means, as Webster's put it, c : enjoying autonomy : INDEPENDENT <sovereign state>. It has nothing to do with royalty.

Second, Canada has a queen. So please. The United States is a sovereign republic, and Canada is a sovereign constitutional monarchy.


And I couldn't agree more. The United States does not go out there targetting civilians on purpose. Sure, accidents happen, and that is tragic. But I am quite a firm believer that our soldiers are rather honorable compared to the rest of the people. When was the last time you heard American soldiers rape their PoWs?

Israel is the same. They don't target civilians. They target militants. It just so happens that the Palestians, demonstrating the bravity, find it useful to hide among civilians and put their ammunition factories among schools and hospitals.