Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4293574.stm


Maybe we should do what we presently do with trainee teaching students and offer incentives such as no tuition fees etc in return for at least 10 years as NHS dentist as suggested in one readers reply to the article?Or allow those of us who can't get NHS dental treatment because of a lack of NHS dentists to do what we can presently do with certain operations that the NHS can't keep up with and tender out to private treatment dentists?

Any other suggestions we can offer to Tony?Please present them here or to the article in the link.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Actually Incog, that is an excellent idea, but only if the new dentists are mentored by an experienced hand.

Our (NHS) dentist is obviously quite new to the game and is useless. I've never had so much trouble with my teeth since he got his hands on them !! :(

I actually find it weird that the human body can be divided up into bits which are treated differently as far as free NHS treatment goes. Feet, teeth, eyes and ears are all chargeable to the patient at point of treatment, whereas most everything else is free ??

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Pay dentists more? :scratch:

The NHS seems to think that they can pay a healthcare provider less just because it's the NHS. The dentists realised that they could make more money for the same (or less) work privately.
I did a lot of work for the NHS for a few years......they payed me about 35% less than my normal rate (and my normal rate was very reasonable) while increasing my levels of paperwork by about 200% :rolleyes: .
In addition, I was only allowed to give each patient 6 treatments (many need far more)--the NHS can be quite restrictive in that way--something that limits the effectiveness of nhs physiotherapy.
So what you have is a system that underpays it's staff whilst simultaneously causing them extra work and professionally frustrating them.
You can start to see why the dentists have decided to stick two fingers up at the NHS......

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

I think those are excellent suggestions.

Offering people more money to work to compete with private healthcare would be tough for the government to afford. Maybe they can allow dentists to work tax free, which is like giving them a payrise without having to spend more money. The deficit in wages can shuffled around internally, or cancelled out with budget cuts in an area less important than health care.

Thanx for the insight into the NHS Rammy :erm: Shows you how great socialised health care really is :( If you aren't cured after 6 treatments, is that it? You suffer for the rest of your life?

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Thats when you go private!

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

What? Private medical insurance is famous for its maximum treatment limits! The ambulance drives both ways, you know. Plenty of people with chronic conditions eventually have no option but to revert to the NHS when their private cover decides they are eating too much of their profit.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Surely this situation is caused by the private sector. If the NHS raises pay, so will the private sector, so then we'll have spiralling costs but the same problem. There's only one solution I can see, but it'll upset the free marketeers! :)

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

I think Ramrod's post on paperwork is quite telling. Even if fees can be more closely aligned between the two sectors the extra paperwork would be a deal breaker. You either employ someone to do it for you, or do it yourself, either way there is a cost iincurred affecting earnings.

I saw a TV report only a few days ago that the government was looking to change the payment system. It appears the Dental Council and Government are miles apart on the way forward. A large part of that is what they will pay for, which to the dentists is too much a drill and fill mentality, rather than a more professional modern preventative care.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

If the government failed to deliver a promise/ pledge then are they not earning under false pretences, the goods his party offers are not standing up to be fit for the purpose intended. Of course this is nothing new to government and is not limited to Labour

Perhaps the best way is to do some self capping of your inflation busting taxes to help pay for the private treatment, as the NHS dentist pledge you have allready paid for cannot and is unlikely to ever be delivered.

If we as a nation continue to accept without redress the continual abuse of our tolerant nature, we may find in the near future we will lose completely the capability to bring about any redress ever.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

I don't think that would be the case. My fees are what they are irrespective of what the NHS would pay me. Private fees seem to be set by the level of education behind them......not the amount that the NHS is willing to pay for them.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Isn't it just down to money and opportunity?

If you earnt £50,000 being a dentist but could earn £100,00 0 by going private what would you do?

Embrace the ethos of the NHS and say no to the money or gaze into the future and see greater financial security?

Apply that to your own job....

Love this comment btw....:rofl:

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

and plenty don't, this is more prevelant in personal, not corporate private medical cover. The biggest problem I have found this has brought for people is job mobility. I had former colleague who's wife was being treated privately for cancer, the job he had signed up for was no longer there, and he certainly was not enjoying his current role, but was unable to look for alternate employment as the new employers private medical cover would not take on his wife as now there was a pre-exisiting medical condition.

NHS dentistry is a prime example of what is wrong with the Labour governments 3rd way, not enough tax taken to pay the dentists privately, yet sufficient taken that we all object to having to pay privately for something our taxes should pay for.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Ears are only an extra expense if you want a "posh" hearing aid. I collect my "free" one in a couple of weeks. Eyes get free glasses/checks for children and free tests for those with certain types of family eye problems over 40. There is a charge for treatment if your Doctor gives you a prescription.

The only NHS Dentist I have met who is happy in his work is salaried and had all his equipment provided by the local PCT (he only treats children who have been referred to him, emergencies and those on benefits (usually pensioners) who cannot get treatment elsewhere and are in need of immediate/ongoing treatment).

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Prevention (early signs of tooth decay) is much better than a cure. The only place we can get our children into at the moment is an emergency centre.

Yet i pay my NI loyally and without fail :(

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Hi all
I am a dentist <duck>
and I have written a web page in an attempt to put a dentist view on the current intolerable situation. I would appreciate feedback from others. How does it read? does it sound snotty and arrogant? what other questions should I put in the questions and answers?

This page is a work in progress and has only been up a few days.

If you have time please read it and give me feedback

The page is accessed by using the <NHS dentistry - whats happening?> link on the front page at
www.simonjenkins.co.uk

regards
Simon Jenkins

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

:welcome: Simon
Nice site, could do with captions to go with the pictures (highlighting gum disease etc) and check your links are still valid on a regular basis.

I think the most misunderstood part of dentistry is the "prevention" of problems, both by the Govt and lack of funding and patients when it comes to treatment.

The chinese doctors only get paid for the healthy patients they have, so every time someone gets ill they stop being paid. A similar approach to dental health might be a way forward for the NHS (but with a limit to the number of patients each dentist can have on the books).

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Hi Simon - :welcome: to Cable Forum

- I read your page, & totally agree about the ridiculousness of setting performance targets in health care.

One thing you may want to think about, is stating a few of your thoughts on how you feel you an offer a better service as a private, rather than NHS, practice?

My dentist went private this year, I've been with him for 12 years - even if there was a choice (no new NHS patients being taken on round here), I would have stayed with him. Since the change I have found he is able to be much more relaxed about the consultation & I no longer feel like I am a conveyor belt. I am not happy about the extra costs, of course, but they are somewhat offset by the improvement in the service.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Hi simon nice site, and theres no need to duck.

oops i nearly forgot the :welcome:

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

I didn't think ducks had teeth...?!

(Welcome and congratulations, you've just had your first CF "bad pun"! :D )

I think it reads very well as comments from someone who is (oops, another bad pun coming up!) fed up to the back teeth (see what I mean? ;) ) with the current situation that is helping nobody.

A suggestions on layout: you might want to ditch the frames (they can make it difficult for people to read and force stuff into tiny windows) and just have a header menu at the the top of the page.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

I got nothing against dentist's themselves, like all of us they need to survive and I wasnt aware they had to pay for the clinic themselves, its no wonder more and more are becoming private only. I would guess that blair has decided dental problems arent high profile and less likely to make the press so he can afford to let the service suffer.

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Good point, in an ideal world I would take a patient into an educational environment and spend about an hour teaching them all they need to know in order to look after their teeth. This would put them in a position to control their own dental health. (our motto comes to mind, "help yourself to dental health") Armed with this knowledge they would only get problems if they neglected their oral hygiene, received poor dentistry or were unlucky etc.

Practice expenses are about £150.00 per hour so this would cost, but the enlightened would see it as an sure thing investment.

This is real prevention, this sort of thing is not funded in the current or the new contract of April 2006. I imagine this sort of prevention is only available in private practice

simon

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

One has to be careful because of our terms of service. The latter end of This article (hope that works) identifies some of the problems. We cannot say that private is better than NHS.

All treatment that is neccessary is available on the NHS. Did you know that? If you can make a case that the treatment is neccessary then the dentist (if the treatment is within his capability) is obliged to provide that treatment on the NHS, nowhere does it say all NHS dental treatment must be profitable.

Indeed, when I do root canal treatments, single crowns, metal dentures, plastic dentures, large fillings and fillings on children on the NHS I know I am making a loss. I got over this years ago and now, because I see my adults privately, private fees subsidise these losses. Only because of private subsidy can I continue to privide NHS care.

The ethical dilemma's in dentistry are horrible, most dentists have managed to continue providing some NHS care by charging fee paying adults privately and continuing to see exempt patients and children on the NHS. This is now the norm and private fees subsidise NHS fees. Its not fair, but it allows children and those who have low income to continue receiving free dental treatment.

The new contract is designed to allow access for all, (fullfilling TB's 1999 pledge that everyone would have "access" to NHS dentistry within 2 years) and this (above) way of working will be a breach of our terms of service on the grounds of discrimination. This article refers to the BDA's attempts to get the discimination claws scrapped.

Dentists will likely have to choose entirely NHS or entirely private in April 2006. I will choose entirely private because I dont think the new way of working is good for my regular patients and I dont believe appropriate state funding will be available. This means my exempt patients and children will have to either pay privately or rely upon NHS direct. I really really really dont want to have to do that. I am effectively dividing my regular patients into those who can pay and those who cant and denying care to those who cant. Someone who doesn't know the detailed background to this situation will say "the dentist is going private because he is greedy" and thats how the politicians want it to appear, but the alternative is to force 'the new way of being treated' on all my patients, and 'the new way of working' upon myself, which is worse?

On the up side though there should be "access" for non private patients somewhere because those dentists who choose entirely NHS will be contracted to provide them with "access to NHS dentistry" It is likely that this "access" will be more like an emergency service, and will be provided by the NHS dentist at the expense of routine care for their regular patients, which will likely be waiting listed (the new way of being treated)

Caveat: it is possible that the current form of the new contract to be imposed on April 2006 is merely the governments first bargaining position and there may be amendments, if that occurs then the above position would change.

simon

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

This is at the heart of the matter.

Sorry for my rant in the last post this morning, I better shut up now before the GDC accuse me of bringing the profession into disrepute or something like that.

But the main message I think I wanted to get across is the "Blair powerless..." quote, and indeed the rest of the article, should be read as "we want the public to believe that dentists are irresponsibly behaving as a law unto themselves by going private and government will need to come down on them heavily" Its a spin war and they want the dentists to be the bad guys, and government be the good guys using the new contract as something to pull dentists back into line.

Simon

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

Just for fun. All six of the receptionists/dental nurses from my Dentists will be appearing on "Test the Nation" on Saturday.

I'm just waiting to see what anyone makes of the name "Babalooal and Owen" AKA "High Street Dental Practice". :D

Re: Blair 'powerless over dentists'
 

didn't know that - thanks ;)