divided our society ?
 

How mass migration has divided our society: David Cameron savages Labour's open-door policy

Welfare system has turned neighbourhoods into 'ghettos'
High immigration has created 'discomfort and disjointedness'
Labour to blame for growth of extremist parties like BNP


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1JTXBpi6V

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Pol...nefits_Culture


any thoughts ????

Re: divided our society ?
 

i do agree in some ways it has, i know people in some areas especially London and Bristol who are afraid to go out at nights because of immigrant gangs.

One of my mates in London lives down the road from a high immigrant area and the police and RSPCA got involved after they were caught killing and then roasting cats on a BBQ. Also i know of a guy in Bristol who was stabbed by a muslim after the muslim moved into share a flat with him and 2 girls and the reason is because he is gay, the guy stabbed him and said he doesnt deserve life.

My view on immigration is simple, the law should be changed that immigrants can only claim welfare for a certain ammount of time when entering the country at which time thats then stopped and they either have to find a job or leave the country. We see so many British nationals suffering living below the breadline, homelessness etc and then people who enter the country have money thrown at them left right and center i think its totally wrong. I see nothing wrong with helping who we can but not at the cost of letting our own people suffer and go without.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I don't think immigrants should get any welfare at all on entry and no one should be allowed in legally unless they either have a job to go too or the financial means to tide them over till they do. Mass immigration has done a great deal of damage in this country no doubt about it no matter how tolerent a society is it still needs time to adjust to new cultures and races and the sheer size of immigration has meant that couldn't happen.

It's so easy to bandy the words "racist" or "xenophobe" around when talking about immigration and they are effective ways to stifle the debate but this is a debate we need to have. Our national population is getting too high and the public services and infrastructure needed are struggling to cope like it or not we have to close the door for a while and empty out some of those we previously allowed in.

Re: divided our society ?
 

A step in the right direction, but too little, too late.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I just wonder why it takes politicians so long to notice and comment on the bleedin' obvious.

And even longer to actually do anything worthwhile about it all.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Cameron's going to grow old really fast. he went in looking young and fresh and will go out looking old and exhausted.

The biggest reason for immigration is free money, free house, free car, free everything.
will it get better. I doubt it.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I feel we should stop it full stop. Any one found illegally entering on trucks at ports from France should be returned to France and dumped at the local benefits office there. Anyone entering illegally on a plane should be returned to the last airport before the landed. Enough is enough. We need jobs for us not every tom dick and harry that enters this country illegally.

I know that i am targeting illegal immigrants here but as soon as they get here they very soon turn into legal immigrants because they tend to use the human rights act to ensure they stay here even when they have no real right.

---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Add access to human rights act to that as well

Re: divided our society ?
 

I remember a few years ago I went up to Oldham to do an exhibition with work.

They booked us a room in a hotel.

Driving to that hotel was an experience. It was just like driving through a ghetto, or what i have been led to beleive what one would look like. We did not dare stop and the doors were locked. There were gangs openly on every street corner looking menacingly at us in my bosses Audi maybe they were 'well jelous' of the car who knows?

It was certainly intimidating. All I know is that you should not feel like that in your own country, let alone any other.

The hotel itself was fine, good food and drink, the bedroom window was a bit drafty though.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Too me immagration should have been stopped years ago, There are so many in this country l am surprise our island hasn't sank due to weight.

My wife is petrified to go to Hounlsow, where we live, as there are so many immagrants there, they stand around in gangs, and make you feel unwelcome.

If immagrants come to this country, firstly they should have a job and pay taxes, but most of them come here as it is FREE, and our taxes support them and if we complain, we are the ones that get a rollocking.

I have no objections to anyone who comes to this great country, But they have got to have a job.:)

Re: divided our society ?
 

Immigrants, Arthur, not immagrants.

Anyone would think that English is not your mother tongue......:D

Re: divided our society ?
 

I`d like to see that Immigrants into this country could actually bring something useful such as a skill or at least speak English.

Re: divided our society ?
 

They sound well-integrated to me... :erm:

Re: divided our society ?
 

But anyone who suggest limiting immigration is obviously xenophobic.

We really should limit immigration to those who "qualify" same as Australia.

Then if they commit crime they get deported, why should we pay to keep them housed and fed in prison.

(Some allowances maybe required. Also refugees.)

Re: divided our society ?
 

Cameron is a Neanderthal, a knuckle dragging racist.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Not really. all immigrants just happen to be foreigners anyway. and ones that are costing this country millions. so the fear is of the cost.

By that time they might have a family, and we'll let them stay because we're nice like that.

it's our niceness that attracts a lot of them. they're not so bothered about our softness.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Yes it's quite a shock for people further South when they travel to the North-West, most people are totally unaware what 18 years of Tory rule did, unemployment is a terrible thing.

The New Tories under Blair did a little to help but nowhere near enough to make up for all the previous damage.

Thankfully we have nothing left for the present Government to screw us for, now it is the turn of the affluent South to feel the wrath.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Unaware of what much cheaper labour and imports from the Far East did anyway.

Re: divided our society ?
 

immigrants should be sponsored by a family and an employer, never be entitled to state benefits, pay higher income tax, if the law is broken then the entire family and the sponsor family be deported and also the employer heavily fined, all illegals should be rounded up and if they do not go home when asked politely... dont accept it... also any immigrant should not be allowed to vote, EVER or have any type of political job, also they must not bring there own ways and society here, they must integrate or be forcibly evacuated.

this country has been too soft for wayyyy to long, a hardline stance is now the only way

ps.. i live in oldham centre so dont tell me i dont know what i am on about or that is is too harsh etc

Re: divided our society ?
 

I just banged the table. just incase you forgot :)

Re: divided our society ?
 

Yep and watch the NHS collapse as all the non-British employees leave en-masse, with a lack of properly qualified British staff try to take over their jobs.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Have you seen some of these non-British employess working in hospitals as nurses or otherwise?

some of them haven't got a clue. it's shocking really.

Re: divided our society ?
 

It's more enjoyable with a lady.....;)

(and less chance of splinters)

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

Australians and Americans aren't that bad, surely?

Re: divided our society ?
 

We'll just have to take your word for it :D

---------- Post added at 15:04 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

Probably not because our language is the same written and verbal.

Re: divided our society ?
 

No, it isn't....

Re: divided our society ?
 

Ok....

Re: divided our society ?
 

Yeah I have

A lot of people I've encountered in the NHS have no clue, regardless of where they come from. Many of them are British national Pen Pushers.

Re: divided our society ?
 

When you come to mention hospitals, most of the staff at hospitals, are normally agency staff, whcih work for peanuts and yet the agency get a fortune, this should be stopped.

I believe all governments that have been in power must take all the blame, each time they are in they say the same, but nothing is done, and this will go on for years.

Immigration will grow and grow, its no good putting a limit on it, like Cameron has said, how many will come through the back door, I would like to see all immigrants that come through into this country, be taught the fact that they are residents of this country and therefore MUST learn English,.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I must say I was glad to get home to be honest ;)

I breathed a sigh of releif as we hooned it past Watford Gap services :)

Re: divided our society ?
 

So are you saying that if they stop immigration tomorrow all those already here will leave en-masse. Somehow i don't think so they know which side there bread is buttered..

As a solution lets start training those in this country without a job to do the jobs of all these people you say will leave en- masse. so allowing those out of a job who are on the dole to get a job . simples.

If those already here want to leave so be it.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Yes, because anyone can train to be a doctor, right?

Re: divided our society ?
 

Given the chance there will be a good few who could be.

Well we will have to do something when they all leave in one go. Lets start now.

Let me just make a point here. There will always be a need for some immigration. What i don't like is the way we are not dealing with illegal immigration that very quickly turns into legal immigration after the lawyers have had a field day. We do not have enough jobs to provide every Tom Dick and Harry with a job because they think they can enter this country illegally .

Re: divided our society ?
 

Arthur, do you make this stuff up?

The NHS employed 1.4 million people last year, with a salary bill of £27.9 billion, of which agency staff cost £1.2 billion (approx 4% of the total cost) - agency nurses make more money than permanent nurses, not less (that is one of the reasons they do it!), but let us say for argument's sake that they earn the same, and if we say the evil agencies have a 100% mark up, that means that 2% of the NHS staff are temps/agency staff - must be a new definition of "most of the staff" I, or any other normal person, hadn't come across before.

Just in case you didn't get it, 1 in 50 (at the most ) of NHS staff are agency - kindly stop posting bolleaux.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I take by immigrants you mean coloured people and your wife is scared of coloured people standing around ,unless of course your wife knows for definate that the coloured people did indeed immigrate to this country and weren't born here

---------- Post added at 19:14 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

care to elaborate ?

Re: divided our society ?
 

Many of the cotton mills were being knocked down and the equipment sold to India before I reached my teens, surprisingly this did not have much effect on the local labour market as by then most of the mill workers were getting close to retirement, their children having chosen less boring careers.
We also had many engineering companies so there was never any shortage of work.
When I was young I used to marvel at the Pickford's or Wynn's low loaders, two tractor units at the front and one at the rear, travelling at walking pace as they made their way to Liverpool Docks, having to avoid all the low, and not so low bridges, on the way and always with a Police escort. Strapped onto the low loader would be a massive packing case with an exotic destination stencilled on the side, within the packing case was a giant Ferranti electrical transformer destined for some emerging country, some of these transformers weighed over 100 tons.
More on Ferranti LINK

The original Ferranti premises at Hollinwood, Oldham, are now used to produce the Daily Mirror. :rolleyes:

Re: divided our society ?
 

When l go with my wife to Hounslow, l always stand to her side, as there is quite a lot of pickpockets gangs around, and even the shops tell you they are in the area.

There are gangs that stand aroud eyeing people up, and it gets very scary even for me, and l can look after myself.

Re: divided our society ?
 

The welfare system has stopped people been homeless, it itself hasnt created ghettos.

What has created ghettos is certian parts of the country been left to rot in terms of economic investment and work prospects. As well as a policy that decides some people arent worth helping.

To me also an area suffering with over population will also become a ghetto, as immigrants tend to flock to the same areas , so many parts of the country dont feel the affect whilst certian cities do feel it as they take the brunt of the immigration. Its localised.

The BNP has strong support in my city yet my city has very high ethnic minority population. Same with birmingham.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I think concern over sustained mass immigration is legitimate but ...

How on earth does welfare create a ghetto ? ... Looking at the USA, I'd say the opposite is true, that lack of welfare creates ghettos.

Re: divided our society ?
 

A welfare system that doesn't promote a return to work or incentivise work creates ghettos. I think that's the point being made. It's supposed to be a safety net not a way of life.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehou...-ghettos.thtml

Re: divided our society ?
 

Ah yes, the myth of the 'welfare bum'.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I think a researched and sourced article requires more than an eight-word rebuttal.

Re: divided our society ?
 

It may be overstated in its scope by some of the press but it's most certainly not a myth.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Do you refute the existence of people who's sole ambition in life is to get a better benefit ?

Re: divided our society ?
 

How do you know these gangmembers are immigrants?

Do you ask to see their passports? If not how do you know for sure?

Or do they just.....look like immigrants?

Re: divided our society ?
 

No myth about it, I know people who have built up a very good knowledge of how to work the system so they never have to work. They are just nothing more than a parasite on those of us who work and pay our way.

Re: divided our society ?
 

so ignition you think someone living on welfare creates more of a ghetto than someone on the streets?

Re: divided our society ?
 

I did ask the same question and as yet haven't had an answer ,so i can only come to the conclusion that Arthur assumes them to be "foreigners" as white British youths wouldn't partake in such activities as they are superior in some way

Re: divided our society ?
 

I think the myth is that the claim is the majority of claimants or at least a large portion of them are only playing the system, something that has no proof whatsoever.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Nothing new there then ;)

Re: divided our society ?
 

Have you ever seen them people running in all directions at Dover?

are they immigrants?

Re: divided our society ?
 

There was a phone-in on BBC Leicester a few weeks back about this and it was suggested that while there's no reason to assume the majority of immigrants are dishonest, when someone comes from a very poor country with nothing but the clothes on their back to a (comparitively) wealthy country with a government that gives them more money than they've probably seen in several years, the temptation to try and get more of this money can be very very strong.

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

At Dover, where I assume the majority of immigrants enter the country, it's a pretty safe bet say that they could be,

Re: divided our society ?
 

No, you just have that effect on people - perhaps more frequent showering may help? ;)

Re: divided our society ?
 

Well they made it to Hounslow :p:

Re: divided our society ?
 

:D OK, is this verbose enough for ya ...


What are Ed Howker’s criteria for ‘ghetto’? The word implies that there is a segregated group living within the 134 (designated ‘Lower Super Output’) areas. The criteria that I assume he’s using are related to those who live on welfare benefits, which is a false qualifier due to that not being a criteria needed to be living in the area referenced by Ed Howker. The very concept of a ‘welfare ghetto’ doesn’t withstand argumentative analysis. But that’s semantics. Not important for this thread but would be for a self-respecting journalist.

In order to receive benefits such as jobseeker’s allowance you have to look for work or you do not receive it, that is ‘promoting a return to work’. If someone is receiving DLA and IS they have been deemed to be unfit for work by a doctor and that benefit is means tested. You can’t just get it by applying for it.

The bailiff that Ed Howker meets in the Falinge cafe claims to know a lot of personal information about the residents of this estate, this is hardly what I’d call ‘researched’ information. It’s entirely anecdotal. I seriously doubt that this bailiff actually knew what he was talking about considering the scope of personal information he was telling Ed Howker. Not the kind of information a bailiff would have on his targets. The unnamed bailiff continues to paint a caricature of the benefit recipients on the estate which is what this thread is reiterating. The bailiff that Ed Howker is interviewing even states that “People make judgements about you if you’re a resident” which is exactly what he’s doing himself, so that’s a true statement. If the bailiff knew of any welfare fraud that was being commited he should report it. It is an unsubstantiated caricature so my previous comment stands.

As for the statistical information included in the article, it doesn’t address the causes of welfare dependency for the referenced Lower Super Output Areas. Ed Howker does though, he writes about how there had been investment in the area and despite that investment the residents don’t have adequate access to local jobs due to the previous employers leaving the area and moving to other parts of the country. This information also supports my assertion that masses of people living on welfare isn’t due to some kind of lifestyle preference.

You can’t bully and stigmatize people into work when it isn’t there to take just like you can’t force employers to hire someone they don’t like. Employment is a two way thing, not simply down to the applicant.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Arthur's an immigrant?,

That would explain his poor command of the English language, and the frequent spelling mistakes and incomprehensible sentence structure.

It's all becoming very clear now - he is disguising his antecedents by adopting the persona of a typical EDL anti-immigration poster....:D

Re: divided our society ?
 

I know. you'd never guess I was black, would you?

Re: divided our society ?
 

I work in welfare ghetto's every day so don't tell me they don't exist or they are a myth .I clearly see examples of estates where non-working and working resdents are segregated and have a clear difference in the standard of housing/living

Re: divided our society ?
 

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to to my recent post in this thread re "more frequent showering"....;)

Re: divided our society ?
 

Of course not, nor did I ever imply it. You quoted what I said and I believe it is perfectly clear.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I did acknowledge that the term was a semantic one that's only really relevent for journalists, not this thread.

However, if you know of any welfare fraud, please report it.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I'm trying to work out if you really are naive enough to believe the above. That is indeed how it' supposed to work, the reality is obviously not quite so clear cut.

That or we're about the sickest nation in the western world.

So either our NHS sucks or we've far too many people on long term disability or a combination of both. ;)

Re: divided our society ?
 

I have, I was told it would be dealt with at some point but they were overworked dealing with all the reports they received daily :(

Re: divided our society ?
 

Well something is wrong with the NHS if we truly have the highest stillbirth rate in Europe as reported on the BBC earlier this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13078902

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13077669

Re: divided our society ?
 

I've been on both JSA and DLA/IS ... it's not easy to get them, it's not easy to stay on them.

I, like everyone else, can only speak from personal experience. I don't want to get drawn into stereotypes. But, if you know of anyone who has committed welfare fraud, then report it. That's all I can suggest.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I'd roll with a combination of both as well Maggy.

Sorry I'll stop criticising our beloved NHS now, model for the rest of the world that it is.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Due to the benefits system work can be worth as little as 26p per hour, and indeed some people live in properties and areas that would be unaffordable to them with their 'average' earnings from when working.

Where's the incentive to work when you can stay at home for 30 cigarettes a week less knowing that so long as you go through the appropriate motions you'll be ok?

Re: divided our society ?
 

A little bit of training in, What to say, When to jump with pain, When to stop and say your having trouble breathing.

Most can produce an Oscar winning performance when prompted with a bit of know how ;).

Re: divided our society ?
 

I'll second that ... NHS all the way:cleader:

Did anyone watch Question Time ? ... that american that suggested healthcare ought to be profitable made my blood boil.

Healthcare in the USA is :nutter:

Re: divided our society ?
 

Its a combination of all of them probably. Our NHS (in my view) seems fine for emergencies but when it comes to ongoing illnesses and particurly stuff thats hard to diagnose it fails. Out of everyone I know or people that people I know know, they have trouble with getting help of the nhs for non life threatening conditions. If they think you about to drop dead, then great ambulance is there in 2 minutes, straight to hospital, no waiting in hospital straight to bed and surrounded by staff no problem. However they consider anything non life threatening as a 'minor injury'. Even in this funding boom we have had the previous years hospitals or at least my hospital is sending people home who have had surgery or even making people who have had things like heart bypasses rest on a make shift bed made out of chairs in corridors.

We also have long working hours, there seems to be trend in the past decade that its fine for people to have to work 50-60-70-80 hours a week to get a livable wage. This is more common than you may think, I have worked for multiple companies where more than half of the workforce is doing overtime in physically demanding jobs. That sooner or later will catch up on people's health.

Now in terms of welfare I am not sure if we talking about just immigrants on welfare or welfare as a whole. My experience living in an area with high immigration is that most immigrants work, they are great employees as they will do physically demanding jobs for long hours on low pay. I certianly dont see many in the job centre when I have been there but have seen a lot in places I have worked. The biggest problem I see with immigration is they are a strain as a whole to public services and infrastructure of any given area due to the fact they tend to not spread out evenly across the country. Of course I am excluding asylum seekers who do get housed and are not even allowed to work so must be getting some kind of welfare and as such they also wouldnt be seen in a job centre.

Obviously I dont know exactly how many of my past work colleagues are actually immigrants, however I do talk to these people and many told me they have immigrated to the country for a better life, some can barely speak english and were working so its hard to believe they were born here as well.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Incentive to work isn't just financial, when i was unemployed i was bored off my rocker despite looking for work. You've got no money to do anything or go anywhere, you can't spend time with your mates because you don't wanna be a sponge ... it's a difficult life.

I'd say that if someone is choosing that, there's something mentally wrong with 'em. In which case, they'll probably need disability anyway.

Re: divided our society ?
 

People seem to regard it as an either/or situation - imho, it's not binary, it's fuzzy.

Health bills are the biggest cause of bankruptcy (57.1%) in the US of A - that is not a good model; however, neither is just pumping more and more money into an already inefficient existing model.

That healthcare is free at the point of access is the place to start from, and then try work out how that can be best done in a world with diminishing financial resources.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

Or they could just be bone-idle, or not share the same work ethic as you - there are other options....;)

Re: divided our society ?
 

also hideous recovery rates for cancer.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

sensible post, someone who has been on the system and sound advice on what to do.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Yep NHS all the way :cleader:

One of the highest stillbirth rates in the developed world, cancer survival rates remain substandard (worse even that Australia, whose healthcare is partly for profit :erm: )

Anyway that's probably a discussion for another thread, such as the one discussing it.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I wouldn't trust the people (ATOS) that do the testing to open a bag of crisps anyway.

Still, I often get told I'm faking it so am waiting my assessment with interest.

I get IB, DLA and IS but have thus far not had an assessment, although my go and various consultants were contacted.

Re: divided our society ?
 

I disagree ,i don't think it is a semantic one at all i think it is a correct description of estates that are used by LA's to keep all the undesirables of society in one area as much as possible.You have to realise that welfare fraud is only part of the problem .Quite a lot of long term claimants know the system better than the people working in the department and know all the tricks of getting as much out of the system as possible ,not fraud just in depth knowledge .I have ,in the course of my work ,heard people having conversations along the lines of "betty down the road gets x amount from the nash and she says that if i tell the nash y then i will get it as well", word gets around and before long everyone in that circle of friends is getting X just like betty creating a ghetto of people unwilling to give their lifestyle .Getting people like these off the system is going to be just as hard as stopping people getting on it in the first place imo

Re: divided our society ?
 

Here is what I would do.

1 - stop NHS doctors doing non NHS medical work. conflict of interest.
2 - apply some sort of quota to patients seen by doctors, is this a bad idea? nearly everytime I go to see a doctor in a hospital they are visibly standing around taking their time, dawdling etc. whilst having a waiting room full of patients, whilst I think we have a shortage of doctors the situation is hard to assess when the ones we have arent too efficient. My last appointment was 8.45am and my doctor didnt turn up until 9.30am and then took 30 mins to get to seeing patients.
3 - I would reassign nurses or make somr redundant, is clear in some areas they seem to be overstaffed, I have been in multiple wards where they standing around chatting to each other, however some other locations such as a&e seem understaffed.
4 - reassess all contracts with private companies and cancel PFI. Private sector taking the NHS for a ride. (this would get much worse under these reforms).
5 - Stop the prioritisation system based on age. Also stop the assumptions made by doctors that people from about 18 to 40 cant get seriously ill. I have lost count the amount of stories I have read where someone in that age group died or had serious health issues due to doctors not checking them out.
6 - add some kind of record keeping and checks on entry for people using services that are walk in type services (non refferal), these quite possibly get abused. Basic checks should be if legal resident in country and records of previous visits.
7 - things like nhs direct to be changed back to how it was at start (useful) so can actually send out ambulances etc. or scrap it. In its current form its a waste of cash as they only tell you to goto GP or a&e anyway.
8 - to further previous point start using the idle ambulances to take vulnerable patients to and from hospital,far cheaper than covering their taxi fares. Also provide transport's for GP as well as enforce GP's to do home visits and phone consultancy, if they refuse dock salary. Provide system for complaints with ultimate punishment been struck off.

The sad thing is the nhs is actually poorly performing not something that can handle cut backs (which is what privatastion would do). It is also less funded than german and french equivelent service per population?

Another example, in france if you see a local doctor and they decide you need a x-ray, they can do one there and then as have own machines. Here you need a refferal which can take weeks/months making you more ill and as such harder to treat as well as probably off work sick in meantime and then that refferal itself needs dedicated staff to deal with you. This I hope goes some way to explaining why we have more on long term sick as waiting for things like x-rays which shouldnt need a wait.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Well the above would certainly make NHS professionals feel better about the reforms that the government is pursuing.

Re: divided our society ?
 

When I applied for DLA I was initially refused. During the appeal process I turned to an advisor that helped me give the correct responses to be awarded the benefit, it wasn't fraud but one has to know how to respond to the DWP or people with legitimate claims get turned down. Hearing people giving each other advise on how to fill out claims for benefits doesn't necessarily mean there's fraud.

The budget of the DWP is about £130bn (last time i checked) and fraud counted for about £1.6bn of that. It's a problem yes, but it's not prolific.

We've also got to bear in mind that once you've been unemployed for a while it gets a lot harder to get back into work. Employers are very picky and the job market is currently going to be expanding due to thousands of redundant government employees hitting the jobs market looking for work, that's going to make it even harder to long term unemployed to get a job.

Some people are just plain, unemployable. I'd rather risk someone getting welfare that doesn't need it than someone who does not getting it.

Re: divided our society ?
 

most fraud goes undetected so the figure of £1.6 bn is a nonsense ,it is a guess based on the amount of people who have been caught .You can bet your bottom dollar that it will be closer to double that at the least .Remember that welfare fraud is a way of getting money without being caught and some people are very good at it

Re: divided our society ?
 

martyh but you are simply guessing yourself.

whilst there will be some undetected fraud its also worth noting legit claimants get wrongfully turned down due to very strict rules in place. not to mention the amount of people who simply dont claim because they dont want the stigma.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Statistics page 2

Re: divided our society ?
 

point of showing stats?

Re: divided our society ?
 

If it's undetected then how do you know about it ?

Re: divided our society ?
 

very true all figures regarding fraud are a guess ,my assumption that it is closer to double is just that ,an assumption. My point being that saying that it is not prolific is wrong ,it should be treated as prolific as no-one knows the full extent of the problem .

Re: divided our society ?
 

The extent of the issue/challenge, perhaps.

We appear to have 1 in 20 of the population claiming some type of DLA, and 1 in 24 claiming some form of incapacity benefit.

Re: divided our society ?
 

If we just look at the employment force which is about 30 million, just over 10%

Re: divided our society ?
 

because i'm not naive enough to believe that it doesn't happen ,also any government figures on fraud will be used to either prove they have control of the system or to prove that people abuse it so they can justify cuts in the system either way the figures are just guess work

Re: divided our society ?
 

well no, it should be treated as is, you dont use a ak47 to kill a fly. your approach is the reason why we have vulnerable people now been turned down.

if you think its a prolific problem then prove it. otherwise it is just your point of view it is prolific. Of course when I say wrongfully turned down by that I also meant those people could wrongfully be counted as fraud depending on how they got turned down. So there will be variations both ways on the figures so best to just go on whats reported.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 ----------

DLA isnt a unemployment benefit it is worth noting that.

I dont think the seemingly high DLA claimant rate is anything to do with fraud but rather the assessment process. 1 in 20 people with ongoing illnesses isnt too surprising to me in itself, I am not in cloud cuckoo land where I think been ill is rare.

What about the amount of child benefit claimants? I expect that to be a very high number and that is not a problem?

Re: divided our society ?
 

The figures reflect detected fraud, yes. It's fair to assume that not all fraud is detected. Undetected fraud can't directly be quantified but even it it's 100% that of what's detected, it's still going to be 2.5% of DWP spending.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Given that the soft approach has resulted in record claimants of all benefits ..and there are about 50 types of benefit iirc,i think it's time for the ak47 :)

Also it must be considered that the different types of fraud ,such as gyro stops ,working cash in hand ,not declaring hours worked are a lot harder to detect than the more blatant types

Re: divided our society ?
 

To elucidate what others are spout err saying...;)

Re: divided our society ?
 

what soft approach?

there is some weird assumption been made that if claimant numbers are going up it means fraud must be going up.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Chys, DLA is not for ongoing illnesses - it is for, and I quote, And I do not live in cloud cuckoo land, I just have a slight problem with the figures of 1 in 20 of the UK population fitting the above criteria.

Re: divided our society ?
 

yeah I forget to take into account the caring element of DLA as well. As there is the care lelement and mobility element. So with that in account 1 in 20 defenitly does not seem high.

Ongoing illnesses is what they use to determine elegibility tho even tho the official guidelines state otherwise.

Re: divided our society ?
 

Actually, the care element isn't included - if you look at my earlier post just up the page, you will see those figures are in addition, as are the 2.57 million on Employment and Support Allowance and Incapacity Benefits.

Re: divided our society ?
 

i don't think it's an unreasonable assumption there is no proof either way but based on my personal experience ,people i know ,i stand by it