Prisoner Abuse
 

Is this a war-crime violation?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3672117.stm

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Someone should point out to the amazingly stupid Americans a few things that are prohibited under the Geneva Convention, such as:

1. Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture

2. Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

They are a law unto themselves... treaties, agreements etc. means jack s**t to them m8. :mad:

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

A bit of a generalization isn't it? These acts are appalling and clearly a violation of the war crimes convention. The last thing that needs to happen is this, Just when some Iraqis where comparing the us force to saddam they go a commit crimes that are on there way to being as bad as saddam (although no where near as bad).

But I dont think its fair to blame americans as it was a few of them which hardly represent the entire US army? After all they where stopped by a american solder leaking pictures, by a news channel based in the usa, and arrested and about to be taken to court by the usa

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

I was referring to the actual people who committed these acts, not the general US populace, I don't think Julian was tarring them all with the same brush either, it's the US government who choose to ignore treaties etc.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Rightly so. But I think the international community will be less eager to grant war-crime immunity in the future.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

oh sorry i thought you where saying that 'Americans' break treaties and such. Meaning all of them

My mistake, Withdraw comment, misunderstanding

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Without wishing to in any way defend the mis-treatment of prisoners - I would think that there is a fine line between abuse and investigation.

Although this douesn't appear to be the work of military inteligence (if that's not a contradiction in terms) during conflict, sometimes you need to find out answers. And sometimes you don't get answers just by asking someone a question.

That doesn't give carte blanche to anyone who feels like abusing a prisoner, but I think we don't yet know the full story enough to comment properly.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

I agree, but this case is simply barbaric and wrong. It is clear that it was abuse instead of investigation but I understand what your saying clearly

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Exactly. And the "government" of that country who send in soldiers with a gung-ho mentality.

Ask yourself this - Why has there been more trouble with the Iraquis in those parts of the country that are "looked after" by the yanks? ;)

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

That's the reason the Geneva Convention is there .. If people begin to think it's acceptable to act like the Americans (soldiers) did then how long before it escalates and the Americans start executing POW's after periods of prolonged torture?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Those pictures are horrendous, I would be really raging if that were British soldiers that had been ridiculed and abused so I can imagine the Iraqi people aren't best pleased. The excuse by one of scrotes that he hadn't been trained properly is about typical, when the sh*t hits the fan blame someone else. Boot the buggers out and get them done for war crimes.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Ok then, can you suggest any possible scenario where it would be correct to treat prisoners in this manner while take photos of your army buddies standing around laughing and giving a thumbs up? Because unless you can explain how that can be a legitimate and useful part of interrogation then I don`t think we need to wait for the rest of the story.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

i don't think anyone would try to justify something as blatant as this, u more than most people here should understand this isn't just an American problem.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

No-one is saying there is no need for legitimate investigation. What most of us are saying, is that we can see no circumstances under which a legitimate investigation could result in prisoners being required to simulate sex acts with each other, or have electrodes attached to their balls.

I can't wait to hear the full story. Listening to those animals trying to explain their way out of this is going to be very entertaining.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

In some respects yes, the RUC had a well documented reputation for physically torturing, demeaning and humiliating suspected terrorists, in that scenario it's almost similar. The IRA, UVF, UDA and LVF also had/have reputations for torturing "prisoners", the IRA generally reserved it for suspected touts, the UVF at one point delighted in torturing any catholic they could get their hands on (Shankill Butchers) but that's a little different, you almost expect this sort of behaviour from terrorists, you don't except it from the state.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Mainly because the yanks are in areas with a history of supporting Saddam, whereas us Brits are mainly in areas where the locals were oppressed by Saddam and are grateful that we got rid of him and are there supporting them.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

whats a terrorist?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

I'm not quite sure of the point of that question or it's relevance to this thread, could you expand a little?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

That's true to a point, but not the case here. You don't extract information from an unwilling informant, by writing a rude word on him. Even the eletroc-torture/feigning sex/large amount of soldiers watching are all heavily tilted towards humilation. That is just not a viable method of interrogation. This seems like it is for their own amusement, and clearly should be punished severely.

Anyone else do a double-take when they read the ring-leader was a woman? I thought men were supposed to be the evil gender.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

bit off topic there but the point i was makeing is at what point does a person become a terrorist?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Thats a question I'm not even going to attempt to answer, though I thought terrorism was a method used generally against governments, obviously the act of terrorism doesn't involve the actual government directly and 9 time out of 10 causes harm/death/disruption to the members of the general public. It's all semantics and the US government would probably have you believe everyone who's anti-american is some form of terrorist.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Yeah, but you can say that about a lot of things. A father becomes a terrorist when tries to warn his kids off drugs, or tell someone that they aren't welcome in the house again, etc.

The term "terrorist" is rather open. It basically means anyone that causes "terror" which can be virtually anything. You can even say Stephen King is a terrorist, and the definition still holds. I'm taking it to extremes, I know, but you can technically label anyone a terrorist if you want to.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again.

The American army is only great and mighty by sheer volume. The actual professionalism and standard of troops is poor.

When you read about this violation of the Geneva Convention it makes the heart sink. We are there supporting the US Army and this is how they repay us.

Land of the free, home of the brave??

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

u need to look in our own direction before u lump the whole american of troops as poor

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

I haven't seen any photos of UK troops humiliating their POWs

'60 minutes' American forces 'abusing' I-raqis
 

the CBS show 60 minuties, aired footage of american soldiers attacking iraqis in abu ghriab prison, six american solders are possibly facing charges of abuse.

source: guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...033777,00.html


you call this retribution ?

to the US:

if your going to stop terrorism and then complain when soliders are being held captured tortured etc......and do the same, what does that make you ?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

I think the good Doctor's point was that, despite starting your post by saying you did not wish to defend any inappropriate activity by US soldiers, their actions are so plainly wrong that in the remainder of your post you effectively ended up doing just that.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

As I said before, this doesn't seem to be anything to do with interrogation, so what I have to say is largely off topic...but:

How do you extract information in a combat situation?

In my opinion you do this by breaking people down to the point where they tell you what you want. No soldier, Iraqi, Yank or Brit, is going to spend one night in prison and confess all.

You break people down by telling them lies (such as your government's not coming to save you), by humilation, by repetition - making the prisoner believe that there is no other way but to tell their captor the truth.

It ain't pretty, and we mere mortals in the real world rarely get to fully know what happens....but happens it does, and I imagine always will.

The other point to remember is the atrocioties that have been inflited on western troops by Iraqi inteligence over the years - which went a lot further than the story reported today. Two wrong don't make a right, of course, but if this kind of behaviour is intrinsic in the phsyche of the Iraqi forces, then surely it is the only language that has any impact.

But like I said, it looks like this was nothing to do with intel, just a bunch of good for nothing squadies with too much time on their hands - and should be punished accordingly.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

As these soldiers are in a position of authority in this case, I don't think booting them out of the Army is sufficient punishment.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Not at all....I have made the clear differentiation between inteligence and brutality. Today's report seems to have little to do with the former. Which is why I was saying that in some instances this kind of behaviour may have a place. Do we really know this wasn't the case? It doesn't look like the work of intel officers, but then now the footage has been released the Coalition are hardly likely to admit it was are they?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Read my post again - you are preaching to the converted, as it were. Apart from the electrocution picture, they are all pictures which are about humiliation as opposed to getting information out of someone. Humiliation can be used to interrogate someone, but extremely rarely. It is very much a long term process (and the coalition need information about insurgents now, not in a few weeks). Humiliation tends to be used to condition prisoners, rather than extracting information.

I mean. If I was captured, and you wrote a rude word on me. I would not care. Ask me to feign/even have sex with someone/anyone/everyone, it's not the end of the world. I would be humiliated, but it wouldn't make me reveal information. However tie me to a chair hold a knife 2 inches from my eye and say I have 5 seconds to start talking, or else..., and i'll pretty much start talking. Successfully interrogating a suspect means threatening them with some measure of physical pain, not just some painless humiliating/degrading act.

These Iraqis probably did undergo some real interrogation at some point, but I believe the pictures were just for 'fun'.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: I sincerely hope they never let you into any army. Have you never heard of the Geneva Convention or do you just don't care?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

As I've asked before, describe a situation in which this behaviour would have a legitimate purpose? Even if they were intelligence officers (and that's an extremely big if), what would be the point in taking the photographs of the soldiers having a laugh about it? Again, even if they were intelligence officers who had been "forced" to take morally ambiguous action, the fact that they were taking the photographs should see them facing a court martial.

Even with my legendary liberal attitudes I would concede that there could be a situation in which torture could be justified, for instance if the torture of one person would prevent the detonation of a terrorist nuclear device. Howver, I think in this instance the photographs demonstrably prove that this is not the case, and even if it were, the taking of the photographs in that manner is entirely indefensible.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Not to mention extremely stupid, as it (hopefully) will get them kicked out of the army...

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

There are times in my opinion during war when it becomes necessary to extract information and i would doubt very much that any goverment stricktly abides by the geneva convention in these situations.

However, what we have here is not one of these situations, it is, to put it simply, a bunch of stupid soldiers taking a few snap shots for their mates and having a big laugh at the expense of the enemy's dignity.

I sincerely hope this sort of behaviour is not common practice.

Its utterley disgusting and there is no excuse for it. The people involved should be court marshalled and thrown out of the Army without question.

Bravo America - what a great example for us all. :(

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

check out listing from amnesty international's reports on britain check out britians convictions in international courts for tourtue prisioner, belive m8 we are far from inoccent i spent 26 years watching things like this going on and many thing much worse

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Well I think I have already answered you there. But in case my views are not crystal clear, I'll spell them out again:

I don't neccesarily agree with it. I wouldn't want it to happen to me. I wouldn't want to do it to someone else. I'm not saying it's right.

I am saying that it happens. I am saying that it can produce results (whether you like it or not), and turning the question around one should ask what other methods of interrogation should be used when your detainee refuses to give you what could be life-saving information?

Well I guess in the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, we have to accept that what we're told is correct, and if so, then I think everyone is in agreement here, that it is wholly wrong, illegal and immoral.

However, I fel sure that if someone had discovered military iteligence interrogating Iraqis in this way, would the coalition not play down the discovery by telling us that they were just a bunch of stupid soldiers?

You're right....we have committed some heinous crimes as a country over the years, and it's only now that we've got better at making sure the world outside doesn't find out, everyone thinks we're cleaner than clean.

If you ever found yourself being interrogated (without your arrest being public knowledge) by some of the more secret ends of our secret services, you may well find yourself with an electrode somewhere you didn't want it.

And let's not forget, Amercia still has the death penalty in many states - isn't that the ultimate abuse?

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Mate, there are 2 sides to it. There is the facade that the Army has to put up, that they obey the Geneva Convention guidelines (which it does as much as it can do), and there is the hidden side in which they do what they have to do to get the job done. If the US army capture an insurgent, who knows where there is a planned attack on marines, or civillians, lives depend on the interrogrators getting that information out of him. Waiting it out is not an option, nor is asking them nicely. Add to that the emotion an interrogator might feel, if say, one of his comrades was killed by an insurgent, or might be if the insurgency continues. Thankfully i'm not part of an army, so I never have to be in that kind of position, but it leads us back to the moral argument we we're having a little while ago. How far can/should someone go to save a life. I do care actually, because this kind of thing is why the US aren't winning hearts and minds like the British would. All responses to a threat should be measured.

It is not very nice, but it's the way the world goes round.

Of course this is different anyway (as I believe), because I don't think it is interrogation, but just needless 'humour' at the Iraqi's expense, and I hope the US soldiers get what's coming to them.

Re: Prisoner Abuse
 

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It just looked at little harsh when I first read it. One of the reasons why I wouldn't want to serve in the army I suppose...

Hearts and minds
 

As a side discussion what do you think the British are doing different (maybe more successfully) to win the hearts and minds.

Or did US just get the troublemaking areas?

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

These soldiers as you call them should not have been in charge of running that prison. It should have been MP's. Not that this is an escuse but other's should be under arrest for this

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

On another note I would like to say someting the british army and others have known for a long time. The US army is w#nk. They have all there toys but there training is pants

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

The US definitely got the troublemaking areas -
predominantly Sunni (upset at losing their dominant position due to democracy as well as being more likely to be sympathetic to al-Qaeda),
the capital, where any action designed for maximum effect would be bound to happen,
Saddam's heartland where the alleged 'old regime elements' still exist (presumably if there are that many of them even after arresting most of the 52 they can issue another pack of cards in time for the Christmas market).

The Brits got Shia areas who were more likely than most to raise three cheers at the exit of the Ba'athists, nowhere particularly sensitive like the religious sites. On the other hand, Iraqis with long memories remember the British turning up and being soundly thrashed 90 or so years ago, plus the British/US air raids of the last ten years. So the Brits evidently had an easier job, but appear to have gone about making the job easier and safer by, perversely, putting themselves more at risk. There have evidently been mass shootings by British troops though, that don't often get reported, and as I'm certain by now that the majority of resistance in Iraq is fuelled by heavy handed coalition action rather than al-Qaeda or Saddam's mates, I'd rather they didn't.

Methods of interrogation - I've said it before, if you don't interrogate people properly you run the danger of getting worthless results. The Birmingham Six were interrogated in a completely improper way, the results were worthless and the real bombers got away with multiple murder. Information obtained under duress is bad not because of some wishy washy liberal concern for the prisoner's welfare, but because it is inherently unreliable evidence.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Downquark1: While the British had the easier job (probably why the US gave it to us), it's basically army policies that separate why the British forces are better recieved than the American ones. I know one key thing i've read about is that America relies very much on technology (satelites, spy planes, etc), however the British have always relied on ground intelligence. Like meeting tribal elders, giving them incentives and getting good quality information back. This creates a better feeling among the people, than cutting them out the loop. But that is not the case totally though. America's reputation is so bad that I don't really think they anything they do to win hearts and minds would work.

Apparently though, i've just heard that some British soldiers (2 I think) are in trouble over alledged photographs. One was of a guy urinating on a prisoner. I can't remember what the other one was. It is in tomorrow's Mirror..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

:(

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Is it me or is every reason for the war being thrown back at us with an ironic twist?
:(

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Taken from downquark1's link:

Isn't he defending himself elsewhere, currently? could be an unlucky coincidence I suppose.....but surely not - they will be calling on Press Secretary, Marquis de Sade next :eek:

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Apparently the media is putting troops in extra danger by reporting this.
Fox new's top spin man

Here's an idea why not blame those soldiers for doing it, the media hasn't just invented this.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Well it's interesting to note that there is now some talk of the US troops being requested to perform these acts on the Iraqi prisoners in preparation for interrogation, which is what I was saying yesterday.

Like I said I don't necessarily agree with their actions, but surely this does put a different take on matters.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

They were requested to goof around and take photographs of themselves having a laugh with the prisoners? Talk about damning with faint praise. If that is the case then the superior who ordered those actions should be court-martialled as well.

But let's face it, that's all spin and BS in an attempt to try and claw back from the position the army currently finds itself in. Here's a little logical problem for you to try out. You say that the troops had been requested to perform these acts. One of the soldiers involved has gone on record to say that the reason that they had performed these acts is because they had *no* instructions from their superior, so they were too retarded to realise that this was not an acceptable course of action (what they were doing in the army in the first place I don`t know, I wouldn`t trust them to flip a burger). There would seem to be a discrepancy between the various stories being thrown around.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

I've seen one or two reports (in the Guardian, mainly, which is why I'm taking it with a pinch of salt for now) that US Military Intelligence was behind the mistreatment of prisoners, which is why the Army and Bush are pushing the 'few bad eggs doing it of their own accord' thing - presumably a few thugs will be hung out to dry but the real people behind it will be quietly moved.

Remember that Gen. Jackson was heavily involved on Bloody Sunday (second-in-command in fact), which goes to show that you can make a damn good Army career out of being a 'disgrace to the Queen's uniform'.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

I`m not sure you can trust the opinion of anyone who uses the word "jihadist", perhaps "mujahadeen" was too hard for him to pronounce.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

investigate
hold a televised court marshal
kick the guilty out of the forces totally dishonoured
broadcast it all on al jezera to show that we find this totally unacceptable and will deal with such things in a serious manner
get bush and blair to appologise to the iraqi people for the soldiers action, reiterating that we will not stand for such behaviour

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

And then sit back and enjoy the specatcle of hell freezing over, accompanied by an aerobatic display by the Red Arrows, Porcine Squadron. :(

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

I know that things like that normally can go on in the course of trying to do what's best, but I don't think it is the case here. I think it's a few soldiers having a sick joke. I know that in jobs of high stress (police, fire service) sick jokes normally help the people deal with the stress of it all, so some people may forgive them for that, but i'm not so sure... Doing it is one thing, but photographing it for your mates and sharing it round? That's too far. Even if the soldiers were ordered to do it by a superior, i'm sure they wern't ordered to photograph it. Which leads me to an interesting question:

Given the damage caused by the photos, and the trouble it is going to cause for everyone, do you think it is right the press released them?

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

If you are suggesting it should have been covered up, then I say no. This kind of behaviour is totally unacceptable, and anyone who is in a position where he/she might do something similar in the future should see it does not go unpunished.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

are the soldiers faces shown?
if so it will be easy to prove its a fake

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Not the picture's I've seen but then again nor are the so called prisoners ?

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Nope, the faces wern't shown. I was thinking it could be faked by the anti-war protestors as they have a huge agenda to push and a vested interest in undermining the war effort. What made me think away from that was that the press and the army superiors seemed to know a lot about the people involved, and that they have even suspended the people involved. Now if that turns out to be untrue, I think the possibility of it being faked is quite high.

Danielf: That's fair enough. I wasn't suggesting the people go unpunished at all (i've always said they should have been punished), but it wasn't the army's desicision to release the photos of course, but the Press. But given the predicted huge human cost in lives and trust because of these photos, do you still think they should have been released anyway, even with the soldiers being punished?

I think about it both ways. If I was the boss of ITV News, I would think that releasing the pictures into the public domain would do huge amounts of irrepairable damage, including lost lives, so I would not want to release it. But i'm sure with the money and reputation involved, that some news boss somewhere would come out with it anyway, so it would be best if I did it first.

Guantanamo: The 'Revolving Door'
 

The Bush administration's detention of hundreds of foreign fighters in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, got dissected last week by the Supreme Court, with some justices questioning the government's right to incarcerate aliens indefinitely without judicial review. But the court arguments may have obscured a potentially bigger embarrassment for the Pentagon: some of the more than 100 Gitmo prisoners who have been released have since turned up back in Afghanistanââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂ�fightin g with Taliban forces against the U.S. military.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld alluded to the problem last month, telling reporters there had been "a mistake in one case" and that a detainee let go last year "has gone back to being a terrorist." But administration officials tell NEWSWEEK that military intelligence has identified at least three additional "revolving door" cases of Gitmo detainees' returning to the battlefield. One released prisoner, Mullah Shehzada, is serving as a "senior" Taliban commander. The officials say that alarming developmentâââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂÂ�as well as information developed about four released detainees sent back to Britainââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂÂ�shows that the Gitmo population is far more dangerous than most of the public understands. Administration officials are especially aghast over the released British prisoners, who U.S. intelligence says are hardened Islamic extremists trained in urban warfare and assassination techniques at Qaeda camps before 9/11; one of them met several times with Osama bin Laden. "Rumsfeld has really been flagging this one hard in interagency meetingsââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�that we need to be careful about who gets released," says one senior administration official.

Source: here.

Re: Guantanamo: The 'Revolving Door'
 

I thought it was a possibility - Due to the lack of oppotunities waiting for former detainees when they arrived home, the political climate in the areas of Afghanistan where the live, and the hatred they feel for the US, but it would be suprising if it is that much. Not least because they they know if they get caught once more, they aren't ever getting out.

Doesn't your post qualify for it's own thread though?

Re: Guantanamo: The 'Revolving Door'
 

Possibly - I may end up splitting this one.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Yes, I think it's right they were released. What's more, I would be very angry if I learned later on that these events took place but the photos weren't published. You are right, there may/will be costs associated with it, but have you considered the costs if it came out at a later date that this was known but held back by the press?

At least, at present, it may just be an isolated incident by a few deranged individuals (or perhaps a fake). The cost of a media coverup would be much worse in my opinion (for instance in terms of trust towards the West in general).

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Yes assuming the photos are real, they should have been released.
But they should never have been taken in the first place, nor should the things done in them have occur.
They just add fuel to fire and give more credence to the enemy.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

I was thinking exactly the same thing, the mirror shows photos of an Iraqi soldier getting "urinated on and kicked in the face", but - for crying out loud the biggest suspicious thing is that this guy just happens to be wearing a T-shirt with an Iraqi flag on it, i mean - how convienient. Also ther is NO motion blur on the foot that is supposedly kicking this guy in the face - it looks, if anything, like his foot is pushing at his throat, and not as they claim booting him in the face. And NO shots of any soldiers face so that somebody can be recognised.

Also, it could just be water and they are making him think that he's getting urinated upon, they are supposedly interogating this guy after all, are we supposed to scare him with flowers.

THERE ARE SOOO MANY POSSIBILITES WITH THESE PHOTOS.

Unlike the American ones whereby there is little doubt what is going on.

I think the Mirror needs a good kicking themselves for releasing these pictures without ANY proof whatsoever as to who took them and where, they are not only senastionalising the shots but putting our boys in Iraq in greater danger just to sell more papers and gain more publicity.

The Bas*ards.

:mad:

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

you don't expect the mirror to let facts get in the way of bashing our forces in Iraq do you?
calling the mirror people *******s is insulting to *******s!

saw the pics on the news, and they do look staged.
good point about the t-shirt
and why take pics if you're worried about your face being shown?

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Yeah, I did think about that. If that did happen, hopefully, by the time the June 30th deadline would have passed, and the Iraqi army would of been in control. The only cost to Americans would of been embarassment, loss of trust/appreciatation (if there was any to lose, that is). The human cost would of been much, much smaller. Now, I fear because the photos have come out while the US are supposed to keep control, it would already greatly enraged existing insurgents, but it would also convert any moderates into insurgents to attack the US (and let us not forget, civillian westerners, or any foreigners including aid workers in the country), in revenge. Sure if the photos were initiatially supressed the embarassment would of been much worse at the end, but all that is in my mind at the moment, would be saving lives, not face.

D'oh, you beat me to it. I only saw the photo of the guy 'kicking' the Iraqi briefly, but as soon as I saw it, I thought it was a fake. Firstly because of the lack of motion blur. I mean, digital cameras aren't bad these days, but at the speed of the kick, would mean that it would have to have a very fast shutter speed. Also, notice how the leg is perfectly in the middle of the shot. Given the speed of the leg, it is interesting how the photographer managed to take the photo at precisely the right millisecond. Even if they kept re-doing it, it would be really tough to catch the leg in that position.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Staged or not? :shrug:

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Well, if they were, whoever did it has already won, and it is going to result in a huge amount of bloodshed. People believe what they want to believe, and now the pictures of out, even if some anti-war group admit to staging them, the arab world won't care - they'd still think it's genuine, and react accordingly. I do think it is good that the possibilty of these being fakes is being given serious consideration.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

True.

People, in these sort of situations, tend believe the worst, without question.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

If they are shown to be fakes (and I suspect they are) then an investigation into the Mirror needs to take place.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

I dream of the day where tabloid journalists are held to account effectively. But they always hide behind the 'freedom of the press' argument ... often abusing it.

If anyone wants political power without being elected ... become a journalist or even better, buy a newspaper.

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

Trust the Mirror to be caught out hook hand and sinker. So ruddy gullible. A paper that has been against this from day one. They just thought it was luck that someone/people from the QLR's happened to give them some damning photos. Just glad I stopped reading that crap a long time ago.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...077170,00.html

Mind you the media were fast at working this out NOT

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

More here,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

Re: MERGED - Prisoner Abuse
 

The plot thickens.
The People claims that they are close to arresting 6 soldiers, but that could be as false as the pics

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Yep don't think the Army or MOD would say there going to arrest anyone until they have actually made the arrests

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My thoughts exactly

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it is odd how quick the mirror got the pics after the us ones

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for all you skeptics:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2870910

now i do believe that we should take these accusations seriously instead of trying to to contradict any reports coming through, yes the source is not the best but you have to wonder why the mirror would concoct such a hideous library of images, ofcourse im not saying that these pictures are true but you have to look at what humans are capable of if you were able to 'get your ownback' on people then you would ?

instead of saying 'our army would not do this' or being patriotic in that sense, its just as bad as the americans are with there military...

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The story does appear to be evolving by the hour.

I would like to see some hard evidence from another source than the mirror ( a self confessed "anti Iraq war" paper) though. ;)

I will reserve judgment at this point....

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thats why i abstained from giving my view.......but i still remain neutral.....its just some people get all 'patriotic at times, makes me sick in these situations because allegations like these need to be addressed.............

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I think its a lot better to have innocent until proven guilty instead.

We are not trying to contradict reports but some people cast doubts and we have too wonder why...The gun, the fact that a prisoner is wearing a shirt with the iraqi flag on? and for someone who is being abused its very very clean.

I am not sure ever way if its true, but i dont know why in this country we are so quick to try and make out that the world is bad. Why is it that we all ways complain? People on average are good no matter what you might say. There is a difference between being patriotic and not always belive the country is heading for the gutter

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You know,IF I was going to kick crap out of a prisoner of war I certainly wouldn't allow anyone to take pictures of me doing so.

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Also look at the photos, there is a real lack of any signs of torture or beatings. Look at the shirt considering the dirt around him to was spotlessly white it must have put on at that moment.

Also while the us versions showed clear abuse these do not. ALso the picture quality is excellent. Unlike the grain type quality of the usa versions

- It was the wrong type of gun, where did they get it

- Wrong truck, that one was never deployed to iraq where did that come from

- no sling on gun

- wrong hats

- photos have a professional quality, if you where dumb enough to let someone watch you beat the crap outta someone why use v good cameras compared to the us versions which are poor quality.

- Prisoners would not were shirts with the iraqi flag on it, and why is the shirt so clean

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I saw a bit on TV about it earlier, and it suprised me how little I realised about the pics (susceptible maybe?). I mean, the TV report pointed out how there was no dirt anywhere. No sweat. No body marks at all. Not one bruise, laceration, nothing. How I never saw that myself looking at the photos before, I don't know, but after it was pointed it out, I can't believe I ever thought the pictures might be real.

Incidently, I don't think the Mirror faked the pictures, although saying that, if an anti-war group faked them (which I think they did), but i'm suprised the group didn't give them to the Guardian, to give the pictures a bit more credibility. Or maybe they did, and turned them down, not believing they were true?

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I was listening to 5Live this evening and heard a some expert saying that the pictures were genuine, but they were six months old. The Lancashire regiment (i think thats what they were called) are not even stationed in Iraq right now, and that a disciplinary procedure had already begun before this emerged. Not sure true it is, but more food for thought.

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The Mirror accepted and published these images because they are despirate to prove they were right with their anti war stance.
They'd much rather have kept Saddam in power, terrorising the Iraqi people.
They know that if these images turn out to be fake they can claim they believed them to be real, and who's going to hold them accountable?
The best we can hope for in that situation is for the other papers to find evidence the Mirror suspected they were fakes but published anyway to damage the work we are doing to rebuild Iraq and relations in the middle east, then for all Mirror readers to stop buying in protest.

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im not defending any stance on this issue as yet, what i was trying to point out was that people are being too dismissive about things and the pictures not being believable because 'this and that is wrong' then again it could be a huge cover up by a tabloid..............

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Having just seen the photos, and not having any real evidence as to whether they are true or not, I will say that I do not believe the photos. If the soldier had been kicked and beaten for 8 hours (and had his Jaw broken), I would expect to see some bruising (although bruising can sometimes take a while to appear) and, more likely, blood. As they say in the article on the BBC website, the shirt to guy is wearing is still white as well. I doubt they would have changed a person they were torturing into a new shirt just to take his picture.

If these beatings are taking place in Iraq, I hope the purpetrators are brought to justice (whatever nationality they are).

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Hmmm..........I don't see any similar outrage when the Iraqis tortured, mutilated and burned 4 US civilians last month ?

But then we do seem to very PC when it comes to 'us' being possibly guilty of wrong doings.

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I didn't notice the Iraqi's invading and occupying the USA.

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Its not really a invasion and occupation in that sense though is it?

They will get their country back and they have a voting system and no more saddam. We and the USA did a good thing for them despite the troubles all the polls coming out of iraqi have said things are still better than saddams time.

we shouldn't take away the good work of the army because of a few photos which might not even be true.

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I think you missing the point Kronas and going off on one again, what a lot of people here are saying is that the pictures should never have been published by the Mirror in the first place UNLESS they had absolute proof of their authenticity.

I am being patriotic as you say though, i stand guilty as charged on that one, but only because photographs like this are being published in an anti-war newspaper like the mirror simply to allow them to make more money, at the expense of the security and reputation of our people in Iraq WITH NO PROOF. Contrary to what you may think, many foreign combatants, irrespective of the outcome of whether these photos are real or not, have already made up their mind.

People could lose their lives because of this, what happens the next time a Soldier gets captured?

And no the mirror would not "concoct such a hideous library of images", but I'm sure as heck that someone might, and anyhoo whats so hideous about them, you assuming that what you are being told is the truth - very clean that Iraqi t-shirt is that he happens to be wearing isn't it?

Lets just wait and see - if this has happened its wrong, but I have my doubts at the moment due simply to lack off proof.

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has the daily mirror answered the british armys questions yet ?

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Allegedly in todays paper. They haven't answered all questions exlusively, and admit that they simply dont know why some details don't add up, but they have defended some apparently, but I havent read the article yet.

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Have you heard some of there excuse's there rubbish. It really doe's show how thick the people at the Mirror really are

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You cant blame the mirror they just want to sell papers and the fact that this will sell papers is typically of some of the public some people nothing better to do than complain.

They love it, as long as they can complain about government, celebrates and also go on a long rant about something they will. Especially with the war, many people had real objections but equally so many people used it to walk around on there moral crusade showing off there 'moral views'. They never give a fl*ing f**k about the people that would die they just loved acting high and mighty and telling people (i.e. me) that I was evil to think that it was the best course, these people didnt care about the issues like the REAL anti-war people where they just jumped on the bandwagon and now are walking around with a secret happiness at these pictures because they think it makes them right.

It is always the same people over here complain about the americans always being proud of there country. GOOD FOR THEM. Well dont we have that we always think that the UK is the worst in the world at everything. "france have got a much better health system than us" but they dont mention that thousands upon thousands of people died in the heat wave over there because the system could not cope as many staff where on holiday!?

We need to have more pride in our country and stop trying to find fault with every single thing we do

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The problem comes when papers like the Mirror start lying, and people believe it is the truth.