Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Good post Erol, one of your better ones :tu:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Agreed - if I have it right, then 100% of users are responsible for all of the congestion, regardless of the various 5% of some of the usage that others might not be utilising 5% of some of the time. Sorry if I kept that short.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Just not correct.

BT has two different divisions that sell residential BB services. BT Openworld (is it BT yahoo now?) and BT retail. BT Openworld has been offering DSL based services from 'day one' (as soon as the DSL product moved from trial to an actual product). The service has never been capped and remains uncapped currently. BT retail (a totaly seperate division of BT from Openworld) started to offer a competing 'no frills' DSL based BB service about 1.5-2 years ago. This was designed as a 'no frills' service from day one and had a cap from day one.

I think for every BT retail BB customer there are 10 BT Openworld BB customers or more. I am not sure about the exact ratio but it is in that ball park. The vast majority of BT BB customers do not have a cap in place at all. Those that do have a cap in place (BT Retail customers) bought a capped no frills / low cost (alledgedly) product and still have a capped no frills product.

So the statement that BT have the same cap as NTL for the same reasons is just not true imo.

No. During peak periods they will cause 'one users worth' of congestion, along with every other users using the network in peak periods. They create no more congestion than a light users using their conection in peak periods. Outside of these peak periods their usage has no effect on others at all.

It is my understanding that CM based BB systems do not 'handle' congestion as well as DSL does. I might be wrong about this but it my understanding atm.

It is my view that users should have the option of terminating their contracts within 30 days of when the cap is imposed on them and not when it is annoucned.

Even if those users are creating no congestion at all (which would be the case if they dl 5gigs outside of peak hours)?

Well moderating your usage to stay within the cap will have no effect on congestion at all. Moderating your usage to not do heavy DLing during certain hours would improve congestion. Still if it makes you 'feel good' to limit your volume but not your usage during peak periods, then good for you. Unfortunately such 'modification' of usage will have no effect on NTL's congestion problems what so ever.

No they are trying to mislead the majority of customers imo (and doing a pretty good job by the looks of things). Just what is a 'bandwidth hog'? In my view a bandwidth hog is someone who insits on maxing out their connection during peak periods. It has nothing to do with how much they dl, just when they dl it. If you use the internet in peak periods then you are creating as much congestion as any other user during such periods and as such are just as much a 'bandwidth hog' as any other users during peak times.

The whole of the internet is a 'shared' service. It is how the internet works. People must realise that with such a shared system total volumes bear no relation to congestion at all. What matters as far as congestion goes is usage during peak periods and only during peak periods and nothing else.

You could argue that becuase a users has used a shared resource (be it roads or a packet based network) lots and lots when no one else wants to use it, they should then not be able to use it much or at all during peak periods. It's not a view that I take but at least it has some 'internal logic' to it, unlike so many of the arguments used to justify limits on usage

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

cont_d...........

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree and disagree :)

Whilst I agree 1 user cannot create > 1 users worth of congestion a light user will most likely not create a full 1 users worth of congestion.

Heavy user will likely be maxxed out on bandwidth.

Light user is most likely web browsing or checking email etc which uses bandwidth in a very 'peaky' manner. They aren't maxxed out during their net usage.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

never had a problem with pipex in the 2yrs i been with them!!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

It is true that I was treating a user as either being online or not during peak periods, and if they are tonline hey are dling whilst online. I did this to simplfy the issue.

If we go into this 'extra' detail of kinds of usage during peak periods then some points come to mind.

First off during peak times it's not possible to 'max out' your connection. As it becomes more congested then your dl speed reduces and the amount of congestion you can cause reduces, as your connection speed does.

Also I would take some issue with the idea that 'light users' do not max out their connection in those periods when they do use the internet (generally peak periods).

Imagine a houshold that only downloads 500MB a day but all in peak periods. There might be little johny playing online games from 7pm till 9pm. Sister Clare likes to get home from school, have dinner do her homework and then retire upstairs to talk online to her friends, using her webcam. She also runs a small website, heavy on large uncompressed graphics files and intersperces he online chatting with intense uploads, all from 7pm till 11pm when she has to be in bed. Dad likes to catch up on the news and uses several video based news sites. Mum meanwhile is wondering why the 5 emails from cousin Jenny in Australia, each containing an uncompressed 1.5MB didgtal photo of cousin Jenny's sick cat, are taking so long to download. She wonders if it is being caused by all these 'heavy users' and wishes NTL would just kick them off.

In the senario above the total congestion caused by such a household, entierly in peak periods, is likely to be as significant as the lazy heavy downloader that has not turned off their P2P app in peak periods. It will be much greater than the non lazy heavy downloader that _does_ restrict their usage in peak periods. However it is hard to villfy this fictional family, compared with the ease with which the non lazy heavy user is villifed.

Also if you are going to look at the detail of usage during peak periods, then with a CM based system upstream usage causes more congestion per byte than dling does per byte. In some ways the real 'bandwidth hogs' are those that upload intensively during peak periods. Apps that are symetrical in their bandwidth usages (voip, gaming and others) cause more congestion than those that are asymetrical, with more dl than up (classic dling, getting email, P2P). Apps that are asymetrical with more upload than down (uploading files to webspace, sending emails, video serving) are even worse from a congestion point of view.

My main point is however that the idea that 5% of users cause 60%+ of congestion is just plain rubbish. It is unfortunately widely believed to be true. It is this misconception that I feel the most need to counter.

(PS there is nothing 'peaky' about downloading your mail from an NTL server (if they are working that is). It's likely to saturate your connection a lot more than your typical P2P app is.)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Lets not forget NTL Broadband was sold as unlimited, not a limited service .
I have a leaflet and contract saying that there again did sign up before the AUP changes.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Now do we need to debate the good and bad of engineering at NTL or has it just appeared as certain people being very tunnel visioned:angel:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

While I agree it is not high speed.

For a dial up upgrader who is probably getting about 50k compressed on dial up, its a 3x speed increase. A 20 second web page now loading in 7 seconds, 7 seconds (the boredom threshold apparently) loading in 2 and a bit.

That plus no beep beep beep squeel before you can see anything, its certainly a benefit, from NTLs point of view it then leads to upgrade creep in the same way they manage with the TV product. Install the basic and let people upgrade themselves when they want more channels.
To keep with the traffic analogy, its like replacing articulated lorrys or Humeers with minis, more will fit on the same road, but congestion is likely to be the same.

Sister Clare is unlikely to be hosting her website on the home PC, but in reality will be uploading this to the NTL (or another) web space. This is more likely to be one time bandwith useage, than nightly congestion.

Mums cat pictures as an XP / OSX user are also likely to be a one off. First time one of her Ozzy dial up recipients gets one of these they are going to send a polite response asking her to send a smaller piccy next time. Even the microsoft apps now offer compression saving options, (save in format for e-mail) on PhotoEditor, iPhoto or most apps.

Your post does point out why Debsy is concerned with the cap though, expand this scenario to a half term week with 3 PCs in the house, an online gamer, a chatter and general browsing and there goes the Gb.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been answered but..

I got the 150k service a few weeks ago and it's been pretty much maxed out 24/7 since then :eek: We're talking between 1GB and 1.5GB a day (closer to the latter) mainly on WinMX ;)

Should I expect a letter from ntl soon? :D

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree with you, it is annoying that the product sold as unlimited is not limited - and I also think they should be 100% upfront about it (refer you back to the discussion about Videotron in Canada, and it's quite clear how much you can have with them).

However someone (sorry I forget who) made a very good point much earlier in the thread that this element of the AUP was introduced nearly a year ago now. The minimum term of contracts is 12 months too, so everyone is now affected by this clause, like it or not.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well if you keep it to the former then no, you shoudl be fine.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I would think that with the users being targeted dling 8Gb the latter would not be on their radar either (though is over AUP guidance and may do over time).

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Yeah I thought that may be the case, although I wondered if they might have a stricter limit for 150k users or something.

At least ntl aren't like tiscali with their 150k adsl service where the t&c's specifically state you aren't allowed to use any filesharing apps :eek:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Of course there is.. You don't download email for hours at a time. Most users will be minutes at best so you get a peak in their bandwidth usage. P2P will produce constant traffic.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

But at least Tiscali are being honest & upfront about it, that's got to be 100% better than hiding the fact away that your download capabilities are restricted in some way when they never were before?? :shrug:

What ntl did was unprofessional & amateur IMO, & they deserve nothing but the contempt that they showed for their customers in the way they sneakily introduced it.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

You are right of course.. but ntl still have less restrictions on their service than Tiscali even with the cap. I don't know if the restriction on filesharing applies to Tiscali's faster services as I didn't check the t&c's for them, but it's a pretty major restriction to have imo :)

edit - I'm thinking of the 150k services here btw; obviously a 1GB cap for me is near my ~1.5GB physical limit anyway. I do think that a 1GB limit for 600k+ customers is crazy.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

In all honesty, how many peeps who use P2P apps would sign up for a 150k service anyway (not many methinks)

Anyway-I've just read the Tiscali Ts & Cs, & cannot see any P2P restrictions. :confused:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I don't think that Erol is looking quite correctly at the ammount of congestion one user can cause. He is saying that all users online at the same time cause an equal ammount oc congestion each. His analogy of raod use is very flawed if you look at it realistically. It is not the mileage that a driver does that causes congestion on the roads, it is the type of vehicle and how it is being driven that causes congestion.

If you take a UBR card that has 200 users on it you can have 190 of them online at the same time with no deterioration to any of their service if they are all just doing a little browsing and chatting. Along come the other ten users, all on 1Mb connections using p2p and having their upstreams maxed out by people downloading from them,. The result is deterioration in the service of all the users, some more than others. If ten of the original users go offline because of this congestion it will not improve matters for the 190 that are left. You can then rightly say that it is the ten 1Mb p2p users who are responsible for the congestion. Even if all the 190 original users went offline the remaining ten would suffer congestion and deterioration in service.

NTL broadband is a contended service and service levels will depend on who is online at any one time and what they are doing. A contended service relies on statistical diversity in the connected users and in what they are doing. If a number of users try to use the service like a leased line service and do their best to max out their downstream and more importantly their upstream then there is more of a chance of deterioration in service levels. In the case of p2p users who have their upstreams maxed out by people downloading from them and the card upstream becomes saturated by such use then it is mainly people that are not contributing to the finances of NTL that are causing problems for "normal" NTL users.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I daresay you're right - although I am one of course.

Just had a quick look and nor can I, but I looked about 3-4 weeks ago and it was very explicit about not using P2P progs, even listing their names and saying it would include as yet unreleased P2P progs as well. I'll try and find the quote, and post a link to it.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Oops my mistake [img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

I've done Tiscali a disservice it seems :o When I was looking for alternatives to ntl, I also looked at Plusnet.. and it's them that have the restriction on P2P, not Tiscali.


http://portal.plus.net/info2/whatisa...19f708d45b#not

So just ignore everything I said about Tiscali earlier [img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I see they are selling that as a 'feature' rather than a condition. The fact that they are upfrony with information is fine with me, you see the conditions, if you decide they are for you, as you don't want to use p2p anyway - this may well be a good ISP for you. But the main point here is that they are upfront with the information.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Very similiar to BT No Frills service, Cheap at 18 quid a month for 500kbps.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Can I get an Amen !? :pp

Can I get a Hallelulah!? :D

Well said brother!!

Now praise the nthw Lord!!

(Sorry Russ!) :angel:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Keep taking them pills Niel...LOL :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Amen !?

Hallelulah!?



Now praise the nthw Lord!!

AGREED

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I signed up for BB in September 2002 but have changed to 600k inbetween then and now.Can someone tell me if the contracts then were for unlimited or capped?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

If you changed in the last 12 months then you would come under the revised terms for sure as part of the process involved accepting the T.O.S. that applied after feb 2003 including the revised AUP.

If unhappy you could have the right to cancel the contract though as it is arguable that they should have made the difference in terms more clear as it was reasonable to assume no key change had happened because they didnt directly inform you.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well, IMO NTL should have stated that the service provided changed either verbally when in upgraded or by way of a revised contract. Neither of which is the case.
Still happy [overall] with the service after 6 or 7 years of being a NTL customer but i think they could have handled this a little better.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

:rofl: LOL So do we all!!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

HeHe,yeh sorry for the "stating the obvious" post :wavey:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

No probs, the more the merrier.

One day NTL may just hear one of us. LOL

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

No it's not milage that causes congestion - exactly my point. Just as its not how much u downlaod that causes congestion. Exactly my point so why are NTL trying to solve congestion by removing or restricting user because they do 'too many miles'?
Its not your vehical type or the way you drive it that causes congestion. Its eveyone trying to use the sane road at the same time.

As I said before the original example made an assumption that a user was either using the connection or not and if they were all usage was equall. A gross simplification to make a point but valid none the less.

The idea that a user either only uses P2P or web and chat and email is flawed imo. There are many apps that light users use that eat bandwidth (for a short time - hence low total usage).

The point is thqat NTL are defining abuse as being total usage. What they should be doing is defining abuse as being high usage in peak periods. Thats my point.

When you go online in peak hours and _use_ your connection you cause congestion. How much you may have dl in non peak times is irrelevant.

Someone who runs p2p (or any app that has a high up or down throughput) 24/7 7 days a week should be dealt with. However there ARE heavy users that do not max out their connection at all during peak hours and these are being punished by NTL equaly with those that do.

I think you are obsessed with P2P personaly. There are many many apps that cause high volume usage - up or down. NTL is promoting some of these apps via its plus product for just one example. It is just as likely to be a 'light' users that only uses the net in peak periods that causes congestion as a heavy users. What is considered 'normal' usage today is a tiny fraction of what was considered normal 5 years ago. The same will be true in 5 years time.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

You haven't thought that out Erol. Vehicle types and how they are driven is the main cause of road congestion. Get on a hilly motorway with one lorry trying to pass another at virtually the same speed and a car driver hardly going any faster than the lorries using the outside lane to pass them and you soon get a big build up of traffic. Take the same motorway with all the vehicles doing exactly 70 mph and you have no congestion at all.



That assumption of yours is totally wrong and doesn't make any point valid. Every user has a different goal and a different pattern of usage and may do many things whilst online. Yes there are many apps that eat bandwidth but in the main most users are not using apps that are anywhere near maxing out their connection in either direction. I have been in IT for more years than most people on here have lived and have talked to many people on the subject and have seen what thousands of people have on their systems.

Neither of us know how NTL define abuse (other than the "cap" as set out in the AUP), nor the reasoning that NTL used to select customers to receive the letter



You can go online in peak hours and cause no congestion whatsoever. You, and others, talk about peak periods but all 24 hours a day can become congested dependant on how others on your card are behaving. There is a suggestion that downloading in non-peak hours is OK and doesn't affect anyone, correct me if I am wrong.


I use p2p as an example, not because I am obsessed with it, but because it is something that many people use 24/7 and no matter what anyone says they are not always downloading legal material. What other application can you think of that can consume so much bandwidth 24/7?

As I have said many times in other threads, mainly on dotcom, times change and things like the number of users per UBR card should be altered to take heed of changing usage of bandwidth by applications. Likewise the 1Gb "cap" should be looked at on a regular basis to see if the figure is still valid if NTL insist that there is a "cap" on usage. Technology will change over a period and the capabilities of NTLs infrastructure should move on to enable users to benefit from from these changes.

I would welcome your ideas on how the subject of congestion can be overcome, taking into account the fact that there is not unlimited financial resources.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

The analogy of cars blocking the road as above does not translate into the network analogy. Net congestion is simply down to the number of people trying to use a shared resource all at the same time, you can not 'drive badly' on the net. You can either use it or not (to varying degrees) - during peak periods or not. There is simply no equivalent net behviour that relates to such type of driving. However if you insist on this analogy, then in these terms I would 'argue' that you are branding lorries unfairly (as 'heavy' users are), in that anyone can drive like an idiot. Would you suggest solving this (unique to roads) congestion issues by restricting lorries on the road or by restricting bad driving? In analogy terms you would just restrict lorries, regarless of how well or bad they drive and regardless of how many other non lorry bad drivers there are.

The new AUP clearly defines 'abuse' of the network in terms of volumes downloaded. If you dl over 1gig a day for 3 days in a row your are, according to the terms of the AUP in breach of the AUP.

If you go online during peak hours and _use_ your connection you are creating congestion. How much you cause is related to how much data you send up or down during these periods - but always with a mximum of less than your connection speed. One user can not create more than one users worth of congestion.

There certainly is a suggestion that downloading in non-peak (ie times when the shared pipe size is <= the total bandwidth that users attached to it are sending / recieveing)

Basically almost any app run 24/7 can consume similar bandwidth.

Video serving
Newsgroups (and this is where the _real_ copyright leeching is done by those that do it best)
FTP
VPN
the list goes on.

The simple fact is if you build the right network then the cheapest way to deal with congestion is simply to put more bandwidth in. However NTL's network is far from the 'right' kind (at least from customer to UBR).

If you have to work with NTL's existing infrastructure and you really want to get the best experience for all users all the time, then limits should be placed on volumes uploaded (especially with cable based systems) and downloaded in certain 'peak' hours and not accross all hours. The objective should be to influence people to 'increase their statistical diversity' - or in other terms to spread thier usage out over the times when there is capacity to spare.

Alternatively if NTL want to run a service that is suitable for a certain type of user and usage - they should market and sell the product as such.

I am going chuck in some quotes from a book I have just finished reading (just come out of a 21 hour power cut here - so I did quite a bit of reading.) It's from Douglas Adams's Starship Titanic by Terry Jones. It features an alien (the Journalist) encountering human road traffic for the first time.

"'Purple Pangalin!' exclaimed the Journalist. 'What sort of transportation system d'you call this? The more popular it is the slower it goes! What genius worked this one out?!' He was really quite indignant"

"'You have to devise a system that goes _faster_ the more popular it is, so it can cope! It's perfectly obvious!'"

Now the above is obviously humorous - but it highlights the basic problem NTL has here. It is selling a product that it markets as a great thing that you can do all sorts of wonderous things with that are really great - just don't use it too much. That is a problem.

In the real world of atoms and physical transportation I do not know how the Journalists suggestion can be achieved. However in the digital world of electrons and photons, where the cost of moving data halves every 12months, and a single fibre can carry more data than all the users of NTL combined could create with 24/7 saturated usage, then I think his solution is achievable.

I want to see us (the human race) get as quickly to a point where anyone can move any amount of data to or from any location at a small fixed cost. Where contention is irrelevant. Where abundance is delivered and scarcity is a thing of the past. Do I think we will get there quicker if compaines like NTL restrict and limit usage and try and encourage those who want to move large amounts of data around to not do so? No I do not.

This vision of 'unlimited bandwidth' to all is not a pipe dream imo. It is in the realms of the possible and increasingly so by the day. By the day the costs of such a system are reducing. The main problems to achieveing this goal are not actualy techincal atm. They are more to do with the historic control of entities (telephone companies) that have for the last 100 years or so had a business built around the concept of managing scarity.

However much cleaver people have written about this subject than me. I would suggest than anyone interest find a book called 'Telecosm' by George Gilder. It's a great book. One part of it deals with his own personal 'vision' of the future. He see a 'glowing fibersphere' of traffic moving freely around the globe. Where you do not have an IP address, but a wavelength of light. If someone wants to send data to me the just chuck it out on my wavelenght and hey presto I get it.

We will at some point live in a world of 'near infinate bandwidth' - simply because it is techincally possible and offers to much value not to do so. My concern is in how quickly we move from a world of managed scarcity to one of abundance.

For me the NTL cap keeps us in a world of managed scarcity at the same time as simply not solving the problem of congestion.

So finally some questions for you Ian.

Do you really believe that if NTL were to remove the 5% highest download volume users from the network and replace them with 'normal' users - that your speeds in peak times will increase by more than 5%?

Do you accept that someone who currently downloads an average of 1.5meg per day - but always from 2am to 7am, is likely to respond to the cap by downloading .9meg per day during peak hours - thus making congestion _worse_ that it was?

The cap (if its objective is to reduce congestion) is ill though out and will not result in noticably faster speeds for the majority. Most users will still all try and use the net at the same time (and look to blame anyone else but themselves for the congestion). They will still encounter congestion and the absolute best improvment they can hope for is 5% - until the users removed are replaced with new users that use it in peak times, when you will be back to square one (but now you statistical diversity will be even worse because you have forced those that use it in unpopular times off the service.)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Erol. the road analogy was one that you introduced and if you look carefully at what you said in it you would realise that it was an invalid argument, but of course I forgot that you cannot be wrong and always have an answer. You have made several statements that are simply untrue but I will not go into them as again, you are always right.

At the end of the day we all know who is responsible for most of the congestion on the net and what they are doing to cause it and no matter what arguments you use it will not alter this fact. There is a certain type of user who is affecting all our use of NTL broadband and that type should either modify their usage to fit in with the AUP (and by that I mean the AUP that existed before the "cap" clause was put in) or move to another provider.

The problem for users is that chaanging ISP may or may not enhance their internet experience and that if it does enhance it it may not be too long before other people see this advantage and jump on the bandwagon with a consequential reduction in service levels if the ISP isn't able to cope with the influx.

Memo to self: Don't respond to Erol's diatribes.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

hmmmm...

All the combined trafic of all NTL users in the uk 24/7 going through one fibre ! :eek: :rofl:

Would that be multi mode or single mode ? :D

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Ahh the old "Evil phone companies" argument. I won't go out of my way to defend them, as to a large extent, what you are saying is true (after all, BT held comms back in this country for years, and, imo, still isn't rolling out ADSL as fast as it could, other companies are in a similar position, ntl included). But I would like to point out that despite advances in Technology, it is still not cheap to maintain/upgrade a network. It still costs billions a year for the likes of BT and ntl to maintain theirs. Even the huge comms companies don't have infinite resources. The problem with ntl is they sometimes seem to mismanage what they have.

I think we will get to a point where we have near infinite bandwidth, but I don't think it is technically feasible yet (the fibres used may have infinite bandwidth, but the equipment used either side of each fibre may not).

If the problem is congestion on the network, as NTL have stated, then, no, a 1 gig cap probably won't help. It might if NTL are charged for data transferred across their link to the Internet and they are trying to cut costs though.

A more sensible option (I will stress that I am not in favour of this option though) would be to have variable speeds. The max speed would lower in peak time, and increase in off peak time (much like Bulldog DSL does).
So finally some questions for you Ian.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

is this a discussion or just an opportunity to 'slate' me?

and you accuse me of always being right? It seems to me that you have decided who is responsible - end of story. So you believe that 5% of users create 60% of congestion. That's your perogative - but its not what I believe to be ture - and I have explained why I think that. So presumably in 6 months time, after the letters have been sent and behaviour moderated or users removed, we can all expect 60%+ less congestion on the NTL network. Dream on, would be my response to that.

Memo to self: Don't argue my case - I will be accused of having to always be right. Don't try and explain why I think the things I do - it will just be used against me.

Then again some here do seem able to have a reasonable discussion. So onto those

It's not really that they are evil (or any more so than any large corporation). It's just that they have done business in a certain way for the lastt 100+ years - and a very profitable business it has been. It's hard for such an entity to not try and make tomorrow the same as today. It's inevitable to some degree. What should motivate them to change every tenet of faith they have held for last 100 years is fear. If they do not they may not exist at all in the future. Unfortunately there is imo still not enough 'paranoia' (andy grove style) in the telcos and still too much complacency.

I do not disagree with that. Telecoms is a 'big business' activity. Vast sums must be spent to build, upgrade and maintain the network. Vast sums are also accrued in revenue. Take BT and a quick rough calculation. 30 million phone lines @ approx £10pm line rental = £3.6 billion per anum. Its not the 'money' thats the problem its what its being spent on. It is still being spent on a network designed to have constrictions, designed to place control in the center of the network (with the telco) and not at the ends (with the user), designed to allow the telco to bundle up and marktet 'verticaly intergrated' products - voice, video, internet. We need to build 'best networks' (where best is best for the users of them and not those that build and run them and best means networks that move the most data at the lowest cost).

Yes I agree that would have been a better option. Also a better option imo would to have used the standard 'affecting other users' clause in the AUP to target people who upload and download constantly in peak periods (and not just a blanket volume cap). This is pretty much what the majority of other ISPs do.

Yes it is possible to 'abuse' your connection imo. Undoubtedly some people do, to the detriment of others (but only upto 'one users worth' of detriment to others an no more). However to say that someone is abusing the network based solely on volumes dl (with no mention of time of usage or uplaod) is just not the right way to deal with such abuse imo.

Admin Edit: Updated quoted names - K

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

In the post above I have credited Ianauth with quotes that should be attributed to scastle. For the sake of clarity the first 3 quotes in my post above are from Ianauth and the last 3 are from Scastle.

Applogies for this mistake.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I personally wouldn't know what you mean with the above statement. There's plenty of legitimate NG's out there. Don't know of any off the top of my head but I'm assured they are there ;)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I wouldn't say that most apps open 24/7 will consume the amount of bandwidth as p2p apps.

Video, only if constantly transmitting, which I can't imagine many people doing... VPN, again only if you're doing something on the Virtual Net.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Thank you Mr Rat.....

Bang - Bang....

Court is ajurned... NTL you are hereby found guilty of being crap... I sentence you to listen to 600 hours of Barry Manalow records ! :D

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

What about 600 hours of their own hold music!? :pp

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I thought that they no longer used the death penalty in this country :confused: :D

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree!
I would want a detailed report of my bandwidth for the previous months I had been using it!!:dozey:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Ha ha ha:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Sorry to be a moaner, but I download a Maximum of 3Gigs per day, I feel that 8gigs is Excessive!!

Just my opinion tho :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

They could just call Customer Services for that..

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree with you on this whole heartly, however it appears the penny counters have enough trouble investing in the email servers sometimes! How could they manage this? do you want to give em a heart attack ;)

also I assume the md of the company has broadband - wounder if he or any of the other directors are held to the cap????

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Ahh the gold old capping argument rears it head again and see the same people agruing with the same stuff as when it was first brought out :)

I disagree that a "Normal" user should just check mail, browse the net and maybe d/l a few things so not slow down the serives for others - if all they wanted to do was that- hell they could achive the same thing on dial up - why pay £34.99 a month for 1mbit if thats the case?

Ive always said that the problem is not with D/L but def more with Uploading - less of the upload then the download otherwise they would have 600/256.

If they had rolled out fibre to houses somehow (not sure if this is possible like) to start with - although costing lots then surley in the long term could have passed BT ADSL ages ago - now it seems been left behind by it for some reason.

As for "abuse" - only people to loose out in my eyes is NTl at this point in time - why? Well if your lucky enough to have both ADSL and Cable - then soon as NTL say "bad Boy" then cancel - move to adsl who have no cap - there is enough adsl providors out there to move as soon as they change there service to CAPPED - upon checking not many do Capping (as in so much data per month) and the ones that do sell it as "lite" anyhow with the option to pay couple pound more for 'Uncapped' anyhow...

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Those of you that got the cap letter, did you modify your downloading or are you still downloading more than 1 gig a day, if so, has anyone been further contacted ?


Just curious..especially with the price increase coming for 1 meg customers..

Cheers

Ian

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

How strict are ntl: in enforcing the cap and sending out letters?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Not very.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

My god, reading this thread does open your eyes to some hugely dodgy bandwidth usage, and plain ignorance to the fact that if everyone overused ANY ISP's network, they would be brought to a halt.

Seeing people say they have downloaded up to 267GB a month and see nothing wrong with it is absurd, I mean come on, my HD is 200GB for example, within 20 days i would have filled it :O

The cap trigger isnt bad (its usally based on 3 days of +1GB or continued overusage over a longer period of time), and Ive occasionally hit up to 2GB a day, but then during the week my usage is near zero due to work,

I think ntl should make broadband medic mandatory, and put a bandwidth meter in it, that way everyone will know thier usage, and not complain when they get a letter through when they've downloaded 100GB of hooky software :p

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I am new to this forum as I was looking for info on faster upload speeds and maybe download speeds to.
I am currently on NTL's 1MB line after upgrading from their 600k line and have been with them for just over a year now.
So far wether due to luck or whatever I have had NO problems with them atall. I heard about this 1GB a day cap a long long time ago and rang their tech support to find out about it. I was told that it was ONLY a suggested limit and it may not be imposed on people. Looks like things have changed now although I am yet to recieve a letter from them. I live in the northamptonshire area and use WAY more than 1GB a day.
As was said earlier when I first signed up for it it was uncapped and this is how I will use it.

I have been thinking about moving to somewhere faster than what I have as I now feel NTL are lagging behind the competition. Nearly all other i.s.p's provide 2MB or faster and yet we are still stuck to 1MB, although with a 1GB a day cap what is the point in them even offering a faster connection?? For £35 a month I feel I should be able to use it however I like. I will wait a little while now maybe until the summer and see what they come up with, if nothing faster comes with NO caps then I to will be off for pastures greener.

Here in the U.K we lagg so far behing other countries.

We have nearly the slowest connections in europe and pay more than anywhere else. Take a look at websites from i.s.p's in other countries and you can see how crap ours are.
I have a friend who live in holland who has an 8MB downstream and 1MB upstream and he pays what I pay here for a 1MB?? WHY????
Here is the link to check it out.

www.telebyte.nl

Look at korea for example.........Not as advanced as us?? MMmm No that is what I thought to. Most home connections in Korea are 20MB and the SMALLEST you can get is 3MB and what do they pay?? The equivelent of £25 I won't even start on japan....who have the fastest connections in the world for £26!!!! !!! 26,000,000Bits/s Dwonsteam at full pelt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When is the time going to come when we catch the rest of the world up rather than getting excited about a PROPOSED 1.5MB line that we have to bend over to pay for...............and probably capped so we cannot use the damn thing in the first place!!!


When my letter arrives I am off to plusnet anthough they still only have 256kb/s upload !! Anyone know any faster??

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Apart from being very glad I don't share your ubr - I have to ask ;

What the hell do you download to use over 1GB a day !!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Does it really matter what people are using there connection for? The same argument of you must be a warez monkey to abuse your connection - if all people want to do is check the web, check email and download the odd thing - they why would they pay for 1 mbit line at soon to be £37.99? ?

So for example lets say we have a 8mbit line made by NTL - then surely the power users or whatever you call them would pay the going rate for that? Leased line prices are a joke to be honest - dont get my wrong - i would love to be able to afford a leased line - then having 2mbit both ways would be great - definalty no limitations apply on this.

People are a bit stuck for choice really - they either buy a contented connection (ADSL, Cable modem) for the affordable price per month or go and re-mortgage there house for a BT Leased Line.

I want a connection that i can use how i want - i dont mind paying extra if i get extra- i would prefer a 1-1 connection with full upload speed but at a price i can afford - BT Keep the prices really high - so thats out the question.

NTL had a trail some time back where they did wire Fibre to some flats in london - this gave the lucky sods 155mbit connection (both ways) for £24 a month - though that never lasted - it shows you what can be achived.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Speaking as a Linux user, no thanks. Not everyone uses a single Windows PC to access broadband, nor should they be forced to. I'd like to see us (ntl) offering online bandwidth monitoring, though.

Other countries - surely no one thinks South Korea lags behind us? They've been an accelerating technological powerhouse for years.

The UK is fairly middle of the road for Europe, some places are better, some worse. Should we be higher? Yes, but the structure of the industry makes it rather difficult, and the government is keener on more people getting broadband than people getting more broadband, if you see what I mean. Hence the interest in BT DSL-ing more exchanges.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Yes.

Normal domestic use does not involve downloading over a GB a day.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

the fact is it is a residential line, in the contract it does not state what the limitations are except it is not meant to be used for business reasons as well as the obvious newly created cap.

however the definition for a 'normal domestic household' is a misnomer because multiple users of the same line can cause you to go over the limit.

when a product is sold either its limitations are stated in the manual or contract.....

now that the 'contract' has been ammended after the person signed up to the product i feel it is wrong to 'point the finger' at people who go over the 'new limit'.

whatever the person uses the service for is up to the individual.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Good point, well made. :tu:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Just to mention - the 1GB has been in effect for more than a year now, therefore there is no-one under contract who didn't agree to it as part of T+Cs. Those who disagree with it are outside of their 1 year minimum contract and can leave with no penalties.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Then they should make a linux friendly version ;)
But if they have a "forced" cap, then surely they should make us all use a bandwidth meter, if only so they/we know basic usage stats.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Ok Then - what product do you recommend i buy? I thought about Business Cable from NTl - that has no restrictions - or at least i dont think it has. Is that then not plugged into a normal ubr as well or is this connected a different way. If i payed for the business Cable modem - if i download and upload (which i dont - just using it as a point) - will i then not effect anybody in my area?

Maybe the other soloution is for me to pay for Leased line- so lets see how much this would cost me:-

2mbit leased line
Setup Charge - £1000 + VAT
Monthly Fee - £650 + Vat

Also require a router for that - £700 + VAT

A Business can afford to pay those prices - me as a home user cannot (wish i could) - all im saying is that from one end of the scale to the other its a vast gulf - pity i never lived in a Bulldog area - they use the speed they get from business to allow home users to have a much fatser connection off peak for a lot cheaper then the prices above.

NTL remind me of a HUb (remember them) beofre switches became cheap - the more people transfer at once - the overall speed slows down. What Happens when NTL reach there limit on the current technology? They will have to upgrade everything in the ground or be left behind basically i guess.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree and disagree - not everyone goes on at 6pm till 8pm and downloads lots of stuff - what happens if say one person did this through the night - the few that are on wont be effected at all (unless like everyone stays up at night).

Although the above is fine on the network - as in it does not effect a lot of customers - you are still breaking the rules. What happens if everybody is on at peak times? this will have a effect as well.

The idea i gather from here is this - if a person who pays there bill expects to get full speed no matter what - is too slow (lets say half speed) then they ring up and complain but that person has the right cos he is not a big downloader. Surely the same argument of Contented service can apply to that line as well?? You get 1mbit etc but if the service is busy - then sorry - but your paying for this type of service and thus you get whatever speed your getting...

Oh and reference the CAP Limit - go browse on ADSL Services out there - thet have various packages out there - lower end of the scale is cheaper and has limits but the more you pay - the more you get - so picking say a 1mbit line will get you not only CAP free service but also Static IP, PHP web space etc.

People are annoyed as the CAP is across the board - soon people will be paying £37.99 for 1mbit which at some point will go upto 1.5mbit - yet the cap is still the same as the person who pays the lowest amount.

Ive said it before in another post - i am free to leave the service - the cap does not bother me in the slightest becuase i tried to leave NTL but they offered me Half price for 3 months. Once that 3 months is up - then i will be on the phone again trying to cancel - i personally would rather pay £32 a month for 1mbit/256 with email that works, no cap whatsoever, PHP/MySQL webspace as standard with Static IP. NTL Have NEVER sent me a letter and I use my connection as i feel the need but then other hand i dont run P2P softare and dont Upload a great deal - it has always been the upload that was the problem (lack of) but NTL somehow got it wrong again and focused on the Downloads... Oh well

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I don't agree that Broadband medic should be manditory. I agree with BBKing that they should provide some sort of online monitoring, but this should be relatively easy for them to implement over the web (as the usage is tracked for the cap anyway, it should be relatively easy to put that info on the web).

Broadband medic has several major problems (one that affects me).

1) It is windows only. That leaves out all the Mac/Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris/Misc. Unix users. I personally use Windows, so this doesn't really affect me.
2) Assuming that Broadband medic keeps a track of usage itself (much like Dumeter), how would it track usage if connected on a router? This is easy enough if the router supports SNMP (it could retrieve the figure from the router), but if the router doesn't (mine doesn't appear to), it's not easy at all.

You could argue that you can retrieve this info through a Cable Modem. Yes, you can, if the modem supports SNMP, and NTL have enabled it. Those people using STBs in Ex CWC areas would be out of luck though, as NTL have disabled SNMP support on these. If you live in an area where NTL have enabled SNMP support, you can use various products to get usage data from the modem already *

3) If BB Medic retrieved the info from a server somewhere, then NTL would have the same problems of securing that server that they would if they made info available over the web.

If they were to provide this info for all users, I personally think it would be easier for them to provide it over the web.

*SNMP is a standard protocol for retrieving various statistics about network devices and computers. Have a look at http://www.paessler.com/prtg/download for a freeware tool for bandwidth usage monitoring that seems to get good revies.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

But they have the opportunity to do so without consultation with customers :angel:


Some one mention CAP www.anticap.co.uk

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

What about people who signed up to the conditions previous to the CAP /Bandwidth guidance/ Whatever its called today.

They have not re-signed their contract

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think the best way to do it is to get them to keep track of it, and you can check it by loging in via a web control panel. That way there is no argument. Otherwise, if they accuse you of going over (users don't account for overheads normally), and you don't think you did, then it can be easily proven otherwise. If I keep track of my downloads with DUMeter, if they accuse me of going over, and DUMeter doesn't show this, then they could accuse me of altering the stats manually. Of course, in a perfect world, we wouldn't be monitored and counted, but it isn't....

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

What about those little lines in the contract/policy that cover "You should check this User Policy regularly as we may change it to take on board new issues that may arise in connection with your use of the Services or the way we provide the Services. The most up to date version of the User Policy will apply to your use of the Services, even if you have not read the updated version."

Did you actually sign anything? I know that I didn't...

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

When I've bought this up in the past (on here and .com), I have been told that NTL consider continued acceptance of the service to be an agreement to be bound by the terms of the contract, and I think the point 'noob is trying to make is that we are all on fixed term (1 year) contracts that are renewed on a year by year basis. I have also been told that thanks to the distance selling laws (those that govern how things are sold over the web, mail order and telephone), this is actually perfectly legal.

So, if that is true, we have been given the chance to refuse the changed conditions (i.e. the Cap), but to do so, we have to cancel our service.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

too much of a generalisation that - what about a family with kids and parents who use the same connection on a number of pcs (for example).

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

They are free to leave without any penalties relating to being contact bound are they not?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Now how many have done that, Not many from what i have seen and heard.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

What about them ? Just think about how much over 1GB a day is.

It is a huge amount of data - in fact, it is about equal to the whole of Cable Forums bandwidth usage (for all users).

Normal users do not use this much bandwidth - blimey - many businesses don't use this much.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

But cannot be bound to the contract if not agreed, contractual law .

Could be even classed as an unfair contract and compensation given

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think the law allows NTL to use continued acceptance of the service as agreement.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

They did not inform people in writing of changes so does not exist, changes in writing within 28 days

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Can't wait for the Linux version :D

Ok well im miles behind everyone else on this one LOL - tho actually its not that hard with linux to keep any eye on how much ur using... heres my simple script that i've but into crontab to run @ 23:45 everyday...

# !/bin/bash
ifconfig eth1 | grep bytes >>/var/log/eth1stats
date >>/var/log/eth1stats

.............

and heres the stats it gives me

Sun May 30 23:45:01 BST 2004
RX bytes:1393327455 (1328.7 Mb) TX bytes:442042182 (421.5 Mb)
Sun May 30 23:45:01 BST 2004
RX bytes:1593764366 (1519.9 Mb) TX bytes:493246332 (470.3 Mb)

..............
the only bug i find is when it gets to about 4gigabytes it goes - beh - and resets the counters - this is cause of ifconfig tho.
But its a good adhoc way of keeping any eye on things :p

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

1 gig might have been ok for a limit 2 years ago, but is sadly inadequate if you do any kind of online gaming or video/mp3 browsing these days, if you belong to Fileplanet or Gamespot or Napster or OD2 etc etc, then you can very easily (and legally) cross 1 gig in a matter of hours, the latest game demo's are enormous compared to a couple of years ago, and there are new game demos almost every day - Thief 3 is over 400 meg for example, Fileplanet is offering Eve-Online & StarWars Galaxies for download - both are over 1 gig in size and so on... the videos alone from E3 are often 650 meg in size.

NTL's cap is just not feasable, it should be at least 3-5 gig, just to keep it useable, they need to re-evaluate the status of things around them, other sites/ISP's have moved with the times, NTL's 1 gig cap is outdated.

Ian

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

quite agree time for a change of guidelines

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

u would be hard pressed to d/l over a gig a day of legal files.
while u can d/l linux and game demos u dont do that everyday do u - so the one day u happen to d/l linux and go over the 1 gig per day cap u will be fine as the rest of the month your still in the acceptable usage range.

unless of course u feel the need to d/l all game demos all linux releases and all e3 vids all day every day then thats ur choice and u will get a letter -

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

What about NTL BB Plus videos, music, games you have to be joking

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

1GB is about 18 hours listening to, say, Virgin Radio at approx 16KB/sec. OK, not many people will do that but throw in some web browsing & spam downloading and it can soon add up.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I can't belive you guys are still on about this

JUST IGNORE THE GOD DAMN CAP AND DO WHAT YOU WANT!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

everyday? i play games online i also d/l some mp3s i get game demos and i d/l some video clips - its hardwork to get to a gig EVERYDAY - of course i could just d/l stuff for the sake of it or get multiple downloads of the same files to get to the gig but i found once somthing is downloaded thats it im happy.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I don't know if this observation has been made before - the thread is just too long to read it all!

I can't see ntl having the software to globally monitor each user to identify where anyone exceeds the 1 GB limit three times within a 14 day rolling period! I think they only respond to complaints of poor speed from individuals. The clue is in the letter where it says:

"some of our broadband customers in your area have been experiencing deterioration in the service we offer them. "

I believe that at that point, and at a local level, they will monitor the area to determine if it is a fault or caused by heavy usage.

If you live in a 'light' download area I reckon you will never get a letter no matter how much you download.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Maybe it just comes to down to what is reasonable, no I don't download 1 gig a day, far from it most days, but with E3 (as an example) for the best part of a fortnight I downloaded more than a gig a day, I just think 1 gig as a cap is too low these days, file sizes have moved on, and will continue to do so, NTL even seem to partly recognise this with their increase in speeds across the board, presumably to keep match with current download habits and their competitors.

I think AOL are a much more forward looking company in this regard, here is a quote from a recent AOL UK Press release:

"Our in-depth research shows that very few consumers have any idea or interest in what a one or two Gigabyte (GB) capacity imposed by some providers actually means in terms of usage. In fact, many AOL Broadband members already use a total of more than 1GB of data each month and this is likely to increase as additional broadband features and content are introduced. This demonstrates the real comparative value of broadband services that have no usage limits."

They were comparing the much more restrictive 1 gig a *month* restriction of some low cost DSL offerings but the message is the same - basically - 'content will grow and we know this.'

Just my view...

Ian

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

there was no change to the AUP, just a clarification of a clause that already existed. namely that you cannot use the service in a way that affects the performance of the network. so there was no need for ntl to write to anyone

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

So why put in a clause that totally changes the amount of data youcan download?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Would say that was a significant change in peoples contracts would'nt you:D

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

"now that the 'contract' has been ammended after the person signed up to the product i feel it is wrong to 'point the finger' at people who go over the 'new limit'.

whatever the person uses the service for is up to the individual."


Here here, if you pay the same money for the same service, then whatever amount you download matters to no one.
You're paying your money.........................
If NTL want to send out new contracts, let them try it.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

If you think about it, the changes to the AUP do not make any difference whatsoever to the action that NTL could take against users if they so wished. If they wanted to remove the service from any user they could do it under the AUP that existed before the "cap" was introduced and there is probably nothing you could do about it.

Yes, it is up to the individual as to what he / she uses the service for but that does not mean that they can use it for a pupose that is illegal or against the terms of use without risking prosecution or loss of service.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

does anyone actually know if anyone has fallen foul of this yet.. Knowing NTL i doubt they could get their act together to even monitor this.. as someone has said this thread seems to have been going on for far too long with no real evidence that the cap has even been implemented

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

They have got there act together and letters have been sent out. As to what was said to each user and what happend to them i dont know. I have not heard of anyone being disconnected, If they had i am sure they would have been here to tell us.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Actually, they quite possibly already do have the software to track individual usage of the network.

I think you are right though. NTL don't seem to have gone in heavy handed and written to everyone who exceeds the cap. The do seem to be limiting it to excessive users who may be impacting the service for other customers in the area.

I get the impression that the cap has been implemented so that NTL have a definate point at which they can decide you (or any user) are making excessive use of the network. As a footnote, when I joined (although I cannot find a link to the AUP of the time), I read through the AUP and it did state that if I made excessive use of the network, I risk being banned. I think all they have done is defined "excessive use" as 1 Gig.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

:D ;) :angel:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

There were quite a few who did get sent the letter (copy here http://anticap.co.uk/images/ntlltr0204.JPG). However nobody to our knowledge has claimed that ntl have taken action to cut them off.

This thread is now too massive to trawl through, yet many points in support of and against capping have been made.

Most telling are the recent posts of JustAnotherNoob regarding the 12 month renewal roll over contract. The first implementation of the cap AUP clause for ntl was in February 2003. Everyone, who was on contract for Broadband at that time, has had their 12 month minimum contract period expire. Although those users may have signed for "unlimited use" after that 12 months, it is probably not unreasonable for ntl to change terms if they wish.

NTL can make price changes (we dont like it if it goes up, but we dont deny that they can do it with the correct notice), so I suppose they should be able make changes to other aspects of service.

I maintain that the AUP was not the best place to describe a cap (the guidance of what is is, maybe, but not the cap clause itself). The big point is that ntl with a significant change have to write to users to advise them. They do so with the price changes (even if that's just a leaflet in with a bill). The potentially affected by cap users have had a specific letter telling them to desist. Having received a letter the user can decide to stay or leave, as provided by the significant change T&C clauses.

For new signups, you are bound to the cap, if ntl were to enforce it, and as it is in the AUP, you probably could not use a cap letter as a means of cancellation of your 12 months. For the majority else outside the 12 months minimum contract, I see no need to worry, until you get a cap letter. At that point make a decision, cut down, or leave for an uncapped ADSL ISP (if you have that option).

I do think it unreasonable that ntl's cap is not made clearer on the signup pages, and that might be misleading to some. Most unreasonable in my view remains the limit being the same for all service tiers, and that there is no heavy user, uncapped option, perhaps for a higher price (but ntl should be looking to lower not increase prices, given the caps, to keep them in line with ADSL changes).