Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Yes, but this isn't the case presently.

The average user collects email, surfs the web, uses p2p, streams movies and games etc.

Anyone who does any of these things constantly isn't an 'average' user. Ntl broadband is a package for the masses. Ultimately, anyone who is unhappy with their services (which I often am, just to lazy to change suppliers) is free to not use them.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I only use 20-30kB/sec on streaming radio, now... that ain't overuse on a 1mbit connection is it.

But over a period of time, that 20-30kB/sec mounts up. Even within 12hours, it hits the current guideline.

So, if this is the case, then email, www browsing, other activites etc, can no longer be done, because of the low limit thats is in the AUP.

If i could stream on the 150 package, surf, mail and whatever else takes my fancy, I would.. but, it constantly re-buffers on the radio stream, and making the streaming a complete waste of time. I have tryed the 150 and didn't like it. Not for me.

So took advantage of the low price for the 1mbit.

Now, i'm considering looking elsewhere.. It's a little worring when I could be recieving a letter for streaming!.

So it says, call this number.. do you think they will make personal exceptions.. I don't.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I don't know of that many places that offer cable but not ADSL options now. If ntl is your only choice then you either take it or go on dial-up.

You're not forced to use ntl!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I don't think Ofcom publish breakdowns of individual companies' subs - in fact I'm pretty sure they don't becuase that is where I looked for the figures first. They only break it down by cable vs dsl.

I got the figures from the last publicly available stats direct from the two companies press releases and corporate governance information. BT Yahoo does not take into account the BT subscribers that do not take the added service - I forget what that was called, the one they launched without email, newsgroups etc.

The sum of 600,000 was from the last published ntl figures - any other figure is not in the public domain. Whilst these figures may be somewhat out of date in the case of ntl (published in Sept 03) they are all we can realistically go on. In it they claim in one section, connections of just over 2 million subs, and in a separate section figures of 30% of ntl home subs taking an always on internet connection, hence 600,000.

May I point out that the above makes it look like I have questioned what you have said - whilst I know that you have edited your post in response to my previous, it doesn't make it clear that you are not directing your frustrations at me :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

And on reflecting... some serious rep whoring going on in this thread! :eek:

As to Blake's point. Is there really any justification on having the radio streaming whilst you're out and asleep? You're not only wasting your own bandwidth but the bandwidth of the station you listen to!

Not the best of things to argue with. :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

The problem for NTL is that it wants to attract new customers with the "promise" that they will be able to do everything they want. They even compound this by linking all the "extra" things broadband can do when selling the entry level package let alone the higher tiers.

The reality is that most of the "extras" are only possible by paying the premium for the 600k or 1 Meg service.

If, having paid a premium, the customer then finds there is some small print that limits access to those extras, they have every right to question the fairness of this.

Some basic facts are clear:


This is why there has to be some control to balance individual use so that it does not unfairly impact on others hence the need for an AUP.


One size fits all clearly does not meet this requirement and so the Cap if any should be tiered based on the level of service.

If not the advertising should clearly state that one is paying for extra speed alone and not extra content.

(NTL can't have its cake and eat it on this one.)


The AUP should, therefore, reflect the need to balance load over time as this is the most effective way to reduce congestion at peak times and prevent degradation of the service whilst still allowing the extra use paid for as part of the premium for the higher levels of service.

As for the recent comments, along the lines of "If you don't like it you don't have to stay with NTL", whilst this is certainly true it hardly helps either NTL or any of its customers to take that attitude.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

where you're too far from the exchange or your line has 'problems' then you cant have ADSL even if BT have enabled your exchange. dial up isnt an alternative as it isnt comparable to broadband.



Asdf suggested dial up as an alternative to NTL if you cant get BT ADSL... in my opinion, dial up should be phased out.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree with you, dial up is a pretty ineffecient way of connecting to the internet. But BT do claim that they will have near on 100% coverage by the end of next year - which will be pretty impressive if they make it.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

you might get coverage mate but even with coverage that doesnt guarantee your phone line to the exchange will pass the tests.


anyway.... back to NTL's 1gb per day business model.... will the products of the future force change:-

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communicatio...9146599,00.htm

I suspect they will!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Like I said before, Ntl broadband is a product for the masses. If ntl don't want to cater for those that want a custom service, the only thing that's likely to persuade them is customers leaving in droves, which hasn't happened yet - which implies that most people find the service acceptable as is.

I realise it's not helpful. But when have Ntl ever listened? If you keep banging your head against a brick wall, sooner or later you end up with a sore head!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Jumping in after reading this yesterday (amazing what you'll read in the persuit of work avoidance) with my 2p worth.

What concerns me is where we'll go from here... long ago before I moved I was on the parents' BT internet connection. £15.99 a month for "anytime dial-up" (they lived out in the middle of nowhere so that was all there was - dial-up). It started off fine - a 2 hour kick off I could cope with. Then we got the 12 hours a day max or we boot you onto a (practically unuseable) high-users number. Since I moved out I hear that it's now got to a 150 hours maximum a month or we shift you onto pay as you go when you go over that - the initial change in the policy was the start of a very slippery slope.

I moved house recently and one of the factors was that it was into a cabled area (we can't get ADSL - BT haven't done the exchange) and broadband was on my list of priorities to get. Between me and my fella we are probably "normal" users of the service - mainly web-browsing, software patches, the fella plays online CM network games... we don't hammer the connection - but there are weeks when we'd go over the 1 gig limit (I don't have monitoring software - just going on the size of some update files and demo files - the Unreal Tournament one that was mentioned recently). The file sizes seem to have got massive with the explosion of broadband - software manufacturers do seem to be bloating the size of their patches, updates etc because they feel file size doesn't matter as much because "most people have broadband now anyhow." We do - but we're going to be limited - and I can see 6 months or so down the line that NTL WILL start enforcing this limit more strictly - they've left it a year before starting to mention it - once we get used to the friendly letters and stop complaining about that - they'll move onto the next step.

Like I say - I don't download excessively, I don't have streaming radio on all day and night, but I do go over the 1 gig level on more than a few occasions - especially when I'm off work... I'm not a P2P fanatic (got sick of wading through the junk on the networks) - but the cap concerns me because of the precedent it's setting to move the goalposts further in the future.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

If you don't like ntl then you'd put up with dialup.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

And if they do, this could be the thing that pushes all the 'average' users over the edge. NTL will shoot themselves in the foot, by being the only UK broadband ISP that has and enforces a cap.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

That is a similar point I was going to make today, myself. We wasted 6 months over on dot com, saying the same things about the cap, and getting nowhere. The points on the cap have now been made, and for long enough to make the point, as they were over on dot com.

We have given the good sensible reasons for changes, and how the changes can be made in how the cap operates. It is management, willing to listen, that we now need to be talking to.

Though the position of the management, when meetings were held with them in dot com days was set, as set of some of the ntlees here.

To continue going round in circles, repeating endlessly the same points to ntlees, and getting nowhere, I feel is wasting our (the customers), valuable time, while the ntlees get paid for doing so (apart from the weekend when they vanish).

We have now shown again that we will not take ntl's poor management and ntl's closed minded decisions quietly. We have also dealt with some of the mindset and attitude here.

Perhaps we should now concentrate more on other aspects of ntl's poor management, there's plenty of it.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Until all customers are informed directly that the Cap exists and is being implemented/enforced your assertion can not be made that people do not object to it.

Interesting proposition for you:

What if the A.S.A. and/or OfCom link the current activity enforcing the Cap to current advertising by NTL and force NTL to include a disclaimer detailing the Cap in all advertising?

Do you think the customers might well decide it is time to move on to pastures new in "droves" and that new customers will decide NTL are not for them either?

Would NTL's position be better if they could, instead, show they have listened to valid comments and suggestions from users and reached a fair and equitable AUP that protected all users whilst honouring the "promise" of being able to use the service as advertised?

This is just a proposition, but maybe just maybe, worthy of consideration by yourself and perhaps more importantly NTL management, to consider when looking at the AUP and its enforcement.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think you've summed up my main concern with caps quite well. What might seem like an appropriate restriction today, will be inappropriate tommorrow, especially with the way all IT stufff gets bigger as it "improves" with time. Thus the prcedent of a cap is potentially dangerous - it doesn't immediately affect me now, based on my current use patterns, but if it the limit remains set in stone and unalterable, it will catch up with me, and any "average user" one day.

ntl by thier attitude and outdated sysnopsis of what 1GB actually means (10,000 pictures = 1GB - what of a white cat in snow as my fellow anticap colleague recently suggested, what about modern 4 megapixel cameras which are now common place), show a level of intransience, and a dark ages attitude to the real world.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Any customer who is an excessive user, will get informed of the cap. Those that don't come anywhere near exceeding it won't care about it.

So what if they do, as a consumer I can choose to terminate my contract if I'm not happy with what I'm offered.

Yes, I do. If the cap were strictly enforced or reduced, I'd be unhappy. As it is, it doesn't affect me.

Ntl would be in a better position. But clearly, they don't care what the complaining, heavy using few have to say.

P.S. I work for www.eds.com and am nothing to do with ntl.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

The BBC are now working towards opening up their archives top broadband customers. The talks are taking place now with BT and if a deal is struck the cap would mean NTL customers are being discriminated against. By paying NTL the set rate capped by 1gig a day these customers could never watch or download this content. I know it will be over p2p..

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

So go with BT then? ADSL isn't available in your area? How is this NTLs fault?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Strange as it might seem the purpose of this forum (and this thread) is to try to improve NTL and our combined experience of the services they offer.

Not everyone who complains about the Cap are heavy users some just feel the way the Cap was introduced and is being implimented is wrong for ALL users.

Not everyone that complains about NTL is anti NTL we just want our supplier NTL to be the best THEY can be as this benefits all of us.

I could move to the competition yes, but I choose to stay and fight for a better service from NTL as that is what this site is about.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Why should the customers of NTL, be left behind? (including myself, yourself, and proberly most that post here)

Why should they not be able to recieve the "new" content from the BBC?

Because it's easier to move to adsl, than it is to have the current guidline reviewed ?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I take both your points. But, what I'm saying is for all the "fighting for a better service from ntl", what has been achieved? Ever. I'm yet to see a concession on their behalf. I'm still waiting for CR3 and the red button to do something useful.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I can't go with BT / DSL even if I want to at the moment due to a hole I've dug myself into.

I switched to ISDN / Home Highway about 3 years ago (when NTL lied to me and said there was no cable outside my house / the cable outside my house was not connected to their network) - despite there being grey boxes on surrounding houses and a 2 door cabinet being directly outside. :mad:

So I then had two analogue phone lines a digital phone number and ISDN. For any of you that have never had ISDN it is near double the speed of dial up on 64k and 4x on 128k, it also connects in seconds.

Since then Mrs H has set up working from home and she adopted the second Analogue number as her business number and the digital number as her fax number (incoming faxes are collected bu the PC).

You cannot keep ISDN and go DSL. When they take the ISDN away you lose the two numbers mentioned above. Not really an option when they are plastered over national magazines, brochures etc. This leaves my only DSL option as to get a new BT line installed. This seems to confuse the .... out of them as they cannot run the service on a spare pair of the existing cable.

So until the number portability is sorted I am stuck with (and also happy with - except for upload speed) NTL BB. I'm sure I'm not the only one in such a predicament.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Granted you aren't the only one. But surely BT is the bad guy in this situation?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Peach I feel that attitude isn't required, I have explained why I can't have ADSL I also choose to move to cable. I have agreed the cap is required but it needs modification to make it more suitable for families.
some how you seem to feel the need to attack me when I have never attacked others here. My main beef with NTL is the fact they have brought in the aup cap and has no way to monitor when you have a router...

There is certainly no need to get shirty with me if you don't like the thread dont post in it just to pick on other members you decide you dislike their views.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I take it you think its ok for NTL to be miles behind the competition then?

You want to accept it but go ahead you will be complaining in the future when new content does become available online and you cannot use it.

Dialup is not a viable alternative, its probably the reason why customers havent deserted ntl, most people I know who do have the choice between ntl and adsl have gone with adsl/sky, the ones who do use ntl (who have a choice) its because they save money, certianly not on quality of service.

As for the bbc content thanks for bringing that kitty, it is actually available now to schools and the like but soon it will be available to all the public, they are making all old tv programs 70s,80s,90s etc. available to download, things like grange hill etc.
Also available now is downloading old games (abandon ware), which I do a fair bit off, and whenever I buy software online I download it when possible as I get it quicker and I dont pay for shipping.

quote from ntl
650 short videos, 10,000 pictures or around 100 large software programmes downloaded per day).
end quote

100 small software programs maybe, to me a large software program is at least 1 cd in size.
I download music videos which vary from 60megabytes in size to around 300 megabytes in size so lets call it an average 180 meg a clip, that makes 28gig.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

landlord is reason I am with ntl, BT line not allowed as part of my agreement meaning I can choose between dialup or ntl broadband for the internet, although ntl's service is poor it would take a extremely dire service to make dialup any kind of competiton.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I'm not picking on you. Apologies, if you feel I am, sincerely. I'd like to see changes within ntl. I think ntl's customer service record is **** poor.

But what I'm also saying is that, if ADSL is not in your area then this is a fault of BT. Sole responsibility to provide you with a broadband connection does not fall to ntl.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well for one we did get NTL to re-think the pricing policy on the 1 meg service. Yes that was a long time back but it was not the only time NTL did listen and respond.

The delay in enforceing the Cap till now was also partly as a response to our having raised the issue when the AUP was first changed.

They may shy away from openly acknowledging we are a factor when decisons are made but it is clear sites like this and others do have an impact.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

No I don't. But time and time again ntl has ignored what people have asked for.

At this point, I'd probably change to ADSL. At the moment I can do with the service I've got.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I hope you're correct, I hope the service gets better. Until then, we're all just making ourselves bitter and twisted, bitching about the same things over and over again.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Yes it is BT causing this problem. I'm also a ways from the exchange so I guess I could have problems when the speed gets ramped up over time.

As MovedGoalPosts said in post 463 it's the effect in the future that we all should be concerned about.

The guidance limit is not something I consider that I would regularly breach at the moment, but I know the bandwidth usage in my house must be increasing as software bloats and Mrs H uses iTunes radio and other bloated (legitimate) downloads such as product images etc.

Oh and living in a house (as you do) its not a commercial premesis so NTL commercial BB products don't apply.

Oh :welcome:, I know its not post 1, but certainly early days.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think that to some degree, we have to wait and see. If ntl start enforcing the cap to the point that they become uncompetative, by threatening anyone who goes over 1gb - as opposed to kicking off bandwidth hogs - it will hurt them financially and their reputation even more.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

We may be only a "pea" under the mattress but it matters not how many mattresses, quilts and comforters Princess NTL throws over us she will still be made to feel uncomfortable.

Patient but persistent pressure is the key and I have every faith that common business sense if nothing else will eventually prevail and NTL will eventually come round.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think you are kidding yourself.

But, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well having sold sand to Arabs in my past, and also talked the DSS into reversing decisions on countless benefit claims thought beyond hope of gaining a shift in view more recently, I'm blessed with being an eternal optimist with a track record that justifies that optimism. :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

There are some who will listen if the pressure on them was affecting the uptake of new customers, or was affecting their share prices if we shout long enough and hardf enough and don't fall out between us they have to listen. The biggest differnence between now and the AUP cap being put on is this site is not controled by NTL managment. We are not going to be asked to refrain from speaking our minds or having the thread closed. As NTL notice that this cap keeps hitting the news and others realise that those who might join are choosing ADSL before cable then they will let us do what they said they wanted to do 12 months ago. When I was accepted to the power users committe to try and sort out the best way for both.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Why can't you port your two numbers over to ntl?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I only have portability rights to the primary analogue number, so BT tell me.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

ntl's Q4 and year end 2003 results go out on the 4th of March.

As far as I can see, if broadband is still making them a fortune (and I fully expect that it is), there is no viable reason for them to start capping/warning/restricting customers.

How could they in good conscience say "We are raking it in but we're gonna squeeze you harder anyway"?

Over the next couple of years as their debt burden reduces further (due to further debt for equity swaps or just good old fashioned repayment) they will have even less excuse to squeeze customers rather than investing at a greater rate in infrastructure.

I've said it before, "ntl cant change human nature". People will continue to download according to their habits and this usage will increase over time as the userbase becomes more internet literate and the content becomes richer.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I suppose that is possible. Couldn't you migrate your primary number to ntl, then surely your other BT line become your primary analogue line. Keep that for a while, say six months - then port that one over to ntl as well!!

Well it's worth a go!

Seriously though, it might be worth giving Ofcom's helpline a call about that, just to make sure BT aren't fobbing you off.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Good point - but atm I'm happy with the current situation, the ISDN is a good backup and Cable works well in Hertford so I'll keep the status quo.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

What ever happened with regards the PU stuff?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

It was a complete success. ntl mailed all the 'powerusers' over the last week or so and warned them to cut down ;)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Absolutely nothing as far as I'm aware - it was just a good way of fobbing off users and getting them to go away.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I had to fill in online questions information under normal circumstances I wouldn't have given to NTL then silence.

I believe they shelved it without another word to anyone who filled in the questions. All emails after the questions didn't get answered even those to Aziad.

that was Aziads reply notice he sent a copy to bill.

My reply and his second reply.

A reply from Bill.
After filling in that form the power users was no more except for the people who wanted to try and help NTL to form better relationship and become a better company. I kept trying to find out what had happened to the power users forum but NTL including Aziad didn't reply to another email from me.

Sad to think they sat quiet waiting until 12 month later to try and finish what they started without using the power users in an effort to find a better way of controling the problem or making anolther tier for heavy users.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Obvious

Sorry I never had an email like what you discribed.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Was talking about snail mail but it was not an entirely serious comment hence the ;)

I wish there was a bigger 'only joking' type smiley.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Thank you sociable, that raised a smile in me (in a good way) :) You haven't started drinking early?.........I'm just kidding ;)

It is true that it is sites such as this, that have an impact on ntl to an extent. That impact will be vastly increased with the site's increasingly organised methods of growing and of reaching more customers.

I think the greater impact of the site, will come before ntl gets any 'common business sense', and ntl's, hearts and minds will follow, once we have them by the b@lls -- to slightly misquote Nixon.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Very true Rodd but then I'm in it for the long haul and we collectively have more staying power than they do. :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

You go away for a few days and off NTL go again

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Just found this on page 3 of ntl's Q3 2003 resultsOn the one hand, they're gloating about how high their profit margin is on broadband and on the other they're issuing warning letters.

It stinks.

WHILE profit=massive AND congestion=TRUE THEN upgrade_network=TRUE

seems to make more sense than

WHILE customers=bent_over AND private_jet=not_big_enough THEN screw_customers=TRUE

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Obvious,

there is solution, it was proposed on the .com days, anticap should ask all punters to download their allowance of 1Gb between 6-8pm EVERY DAY, think about it .... NTL will have no choice but change their AUP.

Rob

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I dont think things have come to that just yet. I'm still hoping that keeping a high profile on any moves towards capping will be enough to make ntl think twice.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Nice to see the petition is still there but it needs more signatures now really need to get it up to nearer the amount of NTL customers.

If we keep knocking on NTLs door they sooner or later have to open it :wavey: and we are knocking.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

In the news, and here
and this is interesting as well

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Yes, not only still there but just over the 10,000 signature mark and that's without ntl actually informing people about the cap/policy/guideline/fudge.

Anyone who'd like to add a link to the petition in their sig would be giving the whole campaign a boost.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I don't think I can agree with that. One of the reasons for arguing to ntl that the cap is unreasonable is that it prevents customers normal residential use from being performed. Normal residential use, being the downloading of whatever amount they usually require at whatever time they ususally choose to do it, whether that be "light", "average" or "heavy" dependent on your viewpoint. Falsifying the use pattern, would not assist in that.

It is by demonstrating to ntl that the cap prevents their customers from using the service, that will change attitudes, when this starts to hit ntl in the pocket by customers failing to sign up, or leaving for mor flexible ISPs.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

the first one should be this I think.

then there is this one also.
about the customers getting the letters

You could also get NTL into the ISP complaints data if you are having problems by filling in hte complaints form on ispreview. this puts them onto the isp complaints page if enough have problems.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Thats the same link :confused:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

try the one in your post not mine.. :D I got page couldn't be displayed.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

At what threshold of limit would you suffer? Ntl have in the past strongly hinted to us that if anything they think the current 1GB is quite high :eek:

True the site is not busy, but then we conciously made a decision not to widen our remit which could dilute the sole purpose of the site. How come so many online media sites take an interest in our point of view, if anticap isn't relevant?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Strange, works for me. But thanks for re-posting it :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

You are of course entitled to your view.

Yes Erolz was a loss from the experience point of view. Our treasurer is around when he needs to be.

Increased expertise would be nice so we can argue on a technical as well as consumer level. Of course if there is anyone who wished to assist, we would be pleased to hear from them.

The site as a whole, it is run by consumers of residential ISP services. Inevitably therefore we are amateurs and make no aplogy for that. That is the case of a good many web sites and lobby groups. As this thread has shown, the majority of those who have an interest in a cap policy (whether they are for, against or indifferent to its impostion) will be the consumers whom it might affect. Thus it is only right, in my view that the campaign is run as it is.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well well, whose panicking? So your saying that "high-margin broadband customers" means something other than the obvious? And your stance seems to be "If it doesn't directly affect me I dont give a monkeys" - NiceVery funny. The campaign virtually closed down due to the fact that we had won the first battle. Not a single ntl customer has been capped to this day. Maybe that's got something to do with all the effort we put in? Now another skirmish kicks off. We'll see how it goes.We are amateurs and proud of it. We're not in the business of running ISPs. The campaign slowed as we'd already won the first battle. See above.yawnLOL

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

This 1 Gig cap letter. Will the traffic attributed to us include all the ARP and other users' DHCP protocol traffic that keeps my down stream VERY busy? If yes they need to design a better network before they start charging that way.:eek:

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Hi we asked this question when the news broke allegidly NTL where going to investigate monitoring software.

And power users.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Yeah perhaps. But you can't stop ARP and dhcp requets/renewals being seen at ur c/m i/f though plus all the other stuff that wanders down. Also are they gonna take out unsuccessful web requests that fail because THEIR poxy proxy servers won't perform. They need to think about this quite hard otherwise we may all have a case to say they are not perfoming according to their own contracts with us.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Soory Noob but you appear to be the one making it personal still.

Yes we know you think there is nothing to worry about with the cap.

Red repping and pi$$ing off anyone that disagrees with you won't change the fact we disagree and intend to continue pressing NTL for some level of compromise that will both help them solve the congestion problems and save them from pi$$ing off so many customers.

Both of these will, in the end, help increase NTL's profitability and protect NTL jobs. Continuing as they are to carry on regardless with an unfair AUP that doesn't even do the job it was designed to will not.

Please try and be a little more constructive in your comments and show that compromise is possible as right now the way you are taking all this so personally is detracting from a worthwhile debate about possible ways forward for NTL as far as the whole issue of the AUP is concerned.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

This does seem to be going around in circles :spin: and not going anywhere.......

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

heh check this

"The VNUNet item highlights that roughly 5% of ISP customers could be classed as 'heavy users', yet they account for an estimated 55% of all traffic."

I thought ntl said 1% users use 90%, seems a bit off.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I almost considered not responding to this rant.

One issue - 14000 staff and health of the provider. Of course we have an interest. It is ultimately the paying customer that enables the company to have a chance of remaining healthy and keeping it's staff employed. If the company does something that the customers are not happy about, those customers may leave, new ones don't join (which is harder retaining customers of winning new ones?), revenues fall, staff get laid off, etc. I hope that the company will sit up and listen, as by finding the means to provide customers what they actually want will enable the company to remain healthy.

Your post suggests it is correct for the company to do as it wants, with a take it or leave it attitude to it's customers. That short sighted view sums up much that is wrong with ntl, and why it will always be the subject of attention from sites like this and anticap.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Dont forget - Without customers there is no company...... The customer is the companys most important asset. !!!!!!!

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Whichever figures are correct, getting just a few % of them taking advantage of the normal sleeping hours for more of their heavy download usage, would improve whatever situation there happened to be at present.

Those 'normal sleeping hours' do not need monitoring, since there would be no disruption to other users pleasure by way of congestion. It is so simple to do, just take those 'normal sleeping hours' outside of the cap, there is no specialist monitoring equipment needed either.

The benefits are obvious, and ntl would even be able to claim that do not have a blanket 24 hour cap. I would have thought that propaganda incentive, alone, would have enticed ntl into such a change.

I would say that the normal sleeping hours for this purpose would be something like - after midnight and about 7am, give or take, if thought better. Between those hours, monitoring is switched off, or not done.

No one connected to ntl, or come to that, anyone else, has yet given a valid reason why this should not, or could not be done. I still wait for a valid reason.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think that heavy use overnight is a good idea...... Its the peak times when users need good pings and fast web pages !

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Thanks for that. I'll write it down in my diary. Saturday 21st Feb - ntl says that "high margin" = "low margin" then goes on to prove black is white and gets itself killed on the next zebra crossing (Sorry DA).ntl's bottom line is crucial to the whole argument. The point is that now that they've done a debt for equity swap AND there may be more on the cards AND they've paid of some of the debt AND broadband is profitable, how can they justify squeezing the users? They cant gloat about profitability on the one hand and persecute high users on the other. It's supposed to be an umnmetered service with the low users balancing out the high users. If ntl think they can swap to a pay per byte model and get away with it, I suggest they try it. And who else missed out on the ISPAs this year? ntl weren't in the running cos they didn't meet the service level criteria. Sad but true.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well spotted. It just goes to show how ntl top level management have been more than happy to lie through their teeth even when the truth would have sufficed in the first place.

Will anyone defend ntl claiming that 1% of users accounted for 90% of traffic?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Hi

First let me put on my flame suit. :)

quote
Here's a little food for thought though, no news to me, UK ISPs have been looking at metering etc for some time:
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/cgi-bin/n...FVluyZMVUvxBrP[/QUOTE]


This link has a point on it that struck a cord with me. Users on here say that they download legal stuff from sites that allow pay for content, Download Linux distro's and stuff like that.

My point is the comment "leading to their consideration of unpopular measures such as port throttling P2P sites"

For me that would not be a problem as any stuff i download is not from p2p and therefor would not be affected by port throttling. This would cut down on a lot of the high bandwidth that is being used at the moment by those that do download 8-10gig perday day in day out from p2p sites.

Plus if the throttle was only on at peek times you could control the damage that p2p can create.

There flame suit on ready to be shot down.:)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think there is a consensous of opinion on here that it is peak time use where problems of congestion are causing service deterioration. P2P is one part of the congestion equation, but all downloading contributes. I'm not sure how practical or possible it is for ISPs to physically throttle P2P ports, especailly as these can be changed.

In the first instance asking all heavy downloaders (and uploaders too) to try and schedule such data transfers off peak, must be of benefit. Physical controls could be developed in the longer term if the voluntary measures don't work, but what would not the cost of developing such tools be better spent positively on physical upgrades in network capacity, rather than managing scarcity of resource that in the longer term would become an ever increasing problem for the ISP and it's users?

PS no need for a flame suit, you are entitled to make your views known.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

good point.

First let me say i dont aggree with the cap as it stands. I think we should have differant levels depending on what service level you take.

As for upgrading the network yes it should be, But its not just the network but the cost where traffic is off the network. "Since much P2P traffic does not originate from ISPs' networks it costs them more to deliver it"

Now if they upgrade the network thats fine but there is the cost of all the p2p traffic to take into consideration as well.

I have to agree the cap as it stands does not work and is not implemented correctly, Leading to users feeling that they are getting a raw deal and yes i think i am getting a raw deal. I have the 1 meg service and find the speeds to be fine and would hate for billy downloader to slow me down when i need the speed.

Has anyone that had a letter commented on what was said when they phoned the number quoted on the letter, and if they were told they could be cut off if they did not cut down.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I did ask if one could post the response back but they are handling it via snail mail to avoid any problems of "We didn't say that". Hopefully that will give us a more detailed answer but in the meantime it would be nice to hear what reaction others are getting when they call in.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Dealing specifically with that point, I would expect that a great deal of traffic will be generated from outside the individual ISPs network, even if some of it can be reduced by Proxy Servers.

p2p is not the only source of cumulatively large download. As sites become more dynamic, it is harder to cache them, and more and more they will need to be refreshed fully on each visit and change. It's certainly the case for forums. Streaming media, radio, etc, will be generated outside of the ISPs own network.

Broadband Plus for ntl may be a small way of containing some of the loads by remaining inside ntl's own servers.

p2p is undoubtedly an issue for ISPs external traffic costs, but is it right that it is singled out and blamed for all ills?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I think a fair discussion of what other broadband providers do is NOT off topic, it is a comparison of what they do against NTL.

And, as was stated above, BT have the same cap in force for the SAME reasons as NTL.

IE that someone who continuosly downloads all day will affect others performance on the network, be it on a DOCSIS system or on ADSL.

All users had 30 days after the cap was introduced to leave NTL, not leaving signalled your acceptance of the AUP with the cap in place.

If they are only going after people who download more that 5gb /day on average then I have NO problem with NTL contacting that user and asking them to moderate their usage.

I have gone over the 1gb limit myself on occasion since the cap was introduced, but now try to moderate my usage o stay within the cap.

If they are not going for people who just go over but are going after genuine bandwidth hogs, then kudos to NTL, they are trying to please the majority of customers.

What people must realise (and it is on NTLs website) it that this is a contended service and therefore people must share the bandwisth allocated.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Not necessarily,

NTL have nearly 1 million BB customers.

different networks have a different spread of users and may define a heavy user differently

It is quite possible that 100,000 users are causing 90% of NTLs traffic.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Not necessarily :D

If you don't include the 150Kbps "broadband" subscribers in that number then the picture looks significantly different :rofl:

After all...a 150Kbps customer can hardly be an "uber leecher," can they?

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I've looked at the BT Yahoo Broadband (formerly the openworld) offering, and find no reference in their t&cs and user policy, as published on their web site that their BB service is capped. http://www.btyahoo.com/broadband/terms500

I know the BT Broadband did have a cap policy, but as that service was cheaper and "no frills", that may be reasonable as customers seeking BT as thier ISP had a choice of levels. ntl are not offering that choice.

Ntl have still yet to formally tell their long standing customers of the cap. Those who know of it, probably do so only by chance i.e. word of mouth, forum use, etc. I know the AUP says it can be changed, but how often is a customer really expected to check conditions of service to see if something changes that could have an effect. BT Yahoo in thier user policy readily say it can be changed, but crucially say they will notify customers if they do change it. A far more responsible policy don't you think. At the end of the day, for a number of users the cap restriction is a material change in the terms of service for whcih I suspect courts could decide it has no validity in contract unless customers are formally advised of the change. I'm not convinced that the letter is valid in that respect.

I don't think that many would disagree that it is unreasonable for ntl to seek some traffic reshaping. However I do think that blanket application of the 1GB limit cannot solve the peak congestion, in fact it could worsen it. Contention is the basis of broadband and inevitably the fact that one user has their computer on, affects another user, and vice versa. If we don't want contention an it's inevitable limitations, then we have to be prepared to accept the costs of dedicated leased lines.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I agree its statistically 'possible' but the larger the sample size (a million in this case) the less deviation from the average. Therefore I'd say there's probably one chance in several hundred trillion that ntl were telling the truth.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

oh yeah I forgot ntl were counting 150k customers as broadband customers, they seem to have forgotten the concept that broad means big or wide.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

I didn't think that NTL called the 150k service broadband !

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

If that's the case, it's not very clear watching thier propaganda channels on Digital whcih usually blatantly plug prices from £17.99. I don't know if they've stopped now but they were even utterring "High Speed" when those sort of logos were on screen. Very iffy to me.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Just like the sales guy in Luton told me that there broadband was unlimited !

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

My maths might be out but 100,000 is 10% not 1%. 1% of 1million is 10,000?

I seriously doubt that 10,000 users are using 90% of NTL's traffic.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

LOL That is exactly what they do. :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

:erm: Where have you been m8? :pp

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Well I recommend pipex

£23 for 512 and UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD/UPLOAD!!!

I am not paying but if I can get a cheap adsl modem I would pay 5-6 a month for that

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Sorry m8 still :zzz: :D

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Pipex seem to have an excellent service. Cheap, always getting good speeds, unlimited upload / download, newsgroups that work. Customer service i hear isnt great but you rarely need to call them.

Thats where i will be heading if i get a letter from ntl.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Going on Pipex myself soon - Looking forward to it :)

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

The maximum amount of network _congestion_ a single user can create is < 1 users worth. The idea than an individual user can cause more than one users worth of _congestion_ is just nonsense, though one that is widely disseminated by some and believed by many.

The idea that a given user can cause more than one userâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s worth of congestion is just false. At times of congestion everyone using his or her connection contributes equally to congestion. How much you may have downloaded in times of no congestion has no effect on how much congestion you cause during peak periods.

A †˜heavyâà ¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Š¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¢ user during peak times creates one userââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s worth of congestion.
A †˜lightâà ¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Š¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¢ user during peak times creates one userââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s worth of congestion.
Any user during peak times creates one userâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s worth of congestion.

If the heaviest (by download volume) 5% of users were removed overnight, congestion would improve by up to 5%, but no more. If some of those 5% were heavy users that avoided heavy usage in peak periods then the benefit will be less than the 5%. If these users are then replaced by †˜lightâà ¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Š¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¢ users that use the net in peak periods only, then congestion will not improve at all.

Heavy users do NOT create congestion. Simultaneous usage creates congestion.

And one more time.

Heavy users do NOT create congestion.

Heavy users do drive the development of the internet. They drive the increasing capacity of it and they drive the increasing things that can be done with it.

Or from another angle. Let's imagine the central London road traffic charging scheme. Let's imagine that in order to reduce congestion in central London, rather than a charge, they simply banned 5% of drivers. They choose which 5% based on which drivers that do the most miles in total. They then replace this 5% with a different 5% that do less total milage but possibly more driving in Central London in peak periods. Would such a solution reduce traffic in Central London? Of corse not. Even if they did not 'replace' the 5% of removed drivers, would congestion improve by more that 5%? Of course not. So why do people believe that such a solution will help congestion on NTLs network? Why do people believe that removing 5% of users will improve congestion by > 5% ?

Heavy users do not create congestion. Simultaneous usage creates congestion.

This stuff really is not rocket science, yet the level of misunderstanding about how one users usage affects anothers on a shared medium like a packet switched network, is so widely misunderstood.

Re: 1GB Cap Letter!!!!
 

Hi Erol :) How are you - I thought you had gone away !