Re: Brexit discussion
 

There are two possible solutions that have been put forward by our government just recently, but of course, rather than talk about how this might work, Barnier just dismisses all our proposals out of hand, because he's trying to ramp up the pressure. He is helped by the continual arguments that are being put forward by hostile remainers, who are doing their best to undermine the government's position by negatively influencing public opinion.

The point I am making is that there are many potential ways around this problem of the Irish border if the will is there and I think we should consider what is happening right now.

If we take a look at what happens at the external EU border currently, most of the necessary formalities are conducted electronically, with pre-arrival checks which in some cases are followed up at warehouses. Currently, the HMRC only physically checks 4% of goods arriving in the EU at the external border and the Irish authorities check only 1%.So, in practice, we are already seeing 95% of goods pass the border with no checks.

Given that, one can see why the government's two recent suggestions make sense, in particular, the idea of a maximum facilitation arrangement. This involves managing rather than eliminating customs checks, with more businesses being granted 'trusted trader' status. This allows traders to settle their dues at regular intervals rather than every time they moved goods across the border.

This is not a million miles away from existing arrangements, and to reject the idea out of hand does not exactly show Barnier in a favourable light. He will eventually have to face the wrath of the remaining EU countries if he rejects an arrangement that would benefit both sides.

Given the degree to which Ireland relies on trade with the UK, they would be stark, raving mad to follow Barnier's line for much longer. As I've said before, this is a show to get public attention and to strike the best deal for the EU. Say what you like about Theresa May, but she has not buckled under this pressure. Cameron would have shied away from the fight in the early stages, and Corbyn would buckle and ask the EU what else they wanted from us!

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The use of such language distracts from the serious nature of the debacle the Leave vote has lead to. Calling the people we are negotiating with "turds" is just pathetic.

I would suggest that most of the people who voted Leave had a more adult perspective on why they voted the way they did.

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

Do you ever watch Eurovision? :rolleyes: You are not supposed to think I am, personally, the "UK Jury". It was supposed to be a joke!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I can't see him watching anything with "Euro" in the title. :D

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^^^

this.

the only people pushing the idea of a hard border is the EU

they are using the good Friday agreement (something they have nothing to do with) as political capital

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, the idea of having NI become a member of the WTO in its own right and then choosing to mirror the EU customs regime was an idea put forward by Lamy, not me. The acceptable solution, no doubt, will be found from bringing together ideas from different solutions that are put forward. There are ideas out there - they just need to be brought together into something that is acceptable.

To my mind, the 'maximum facilitation' idea that has been put forward by the UK has considerable merit.

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Incorrect.
WTO rules require a hard border if there was no agreement between the EU and a third country.
Ireland is concerned that a hard border would encourage the revival of terrorism and the EU is looking after its members' interests. The UK may have the upper hand when negotiating with Ireland but the position is reversed when the EU negotiates with the UK. Of course, the UK has yet to propose a solution for the Irish border as the cabinet is split down the middle on two impractical ideas. It will decide which of these ideas sinks the least in July.

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If there's no deal, there's a hard border unless we are prepared to open up our borders to all nations. That's how the WTO works.

Though the EU had nothing to do with the GFA, two of its' members were involved and the other 26 countries are supporting the continuation of the agreement, hence the position agreed by the European Council.

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If we don't get an agreement with the EU on the trade deal our Government is telling us is perfectly possible, and we revert to WTO rules, then I agree, we are talking about a hard border. It's really up to both sides to work together to avoid that situation.

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Yeah, I think the backstop is on its' way. Might be a tough sell through.

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Oh sure, I am not denying that something can be worked out if there is some give (from either the UK or EU) but specifically, why would May give on WTO membership for NI (standalone) when she wouldn't if it was EU CU alignment? If one effects UK sovereignty then the other certainly does.

You can't have it both ways, if one isn't an issue neither is the other. If one is an issue / problem then they both are, for the same reason, in both scenarios.

Fine, but that still involves some tariffs and barriers along with fees - if not then the UK must accept membership into the CU, which means that trade deals are done as a collective.

If not, then friction-less trade is a no go.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

But we are trying to get agreement with the EU! Which is why the hard border is unnecessary.

And why you seem to think that the EU has the upper hand eludes me. They export more to us than we do to them, and when the crunch comes to the crunch, the remaining EU countries will demand a deal.

.After all, they won't vote to be poorer. :D

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You talk about trade but how does an "open" border handle the movement of people from Eire to NI and then on to the Mainland? Just curious ..

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I think the point is that without permission to work in the UK, they won't be able to work or claim benefits of any kind. So why have border controls to deal with a non-existent problem?

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Ok, so why do we have a "border" in France and, as a result, the Jungle?

---------- Post added at 18:51 ---------- Previous post was at 18:50 ----------

Why? After all, we did :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

We did not vote to be poorer, and nor will we be! Remember, we are talking about more trade than less, so go figure.

By the way, who’s talking about France? I thought we were talking about the Ireland/Northern Ireland border!

You are pretty messed up, man!

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:D when looking at what's gone on in the past few years, and the threats that are still out there, that one made me chuckle Andrew, thanks :D

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Only 3500 dead and 50000 wounded. The troubles were just a bit of a laugh really

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Terrorism; be it the murder of young concert-goers in Manchester, Jo Cox or British and Irish citizens during The Troubles; is not something I've ever had cause to chuckle about.

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Fake outrage how wonderful :nono:

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Keep up :) You said there is no need for a NI border to control migration so I was asking you why the need for the Calais "border". By your logic, we should not have border security in Calais, correct?

You are talking about more trade. The emphasis being on the "talking" part. You may not have voted to be poorer, however some will be still happy if they are.

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But the Shengen migrants are contained in France. They cannot get to Ireland.

How can more trade make us poorer?

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I'm pleased you asked that Calais border question ianch99.

Even those rare beasts, the pro-Brexit economists, acknowledge that we will be poorer. You may recall that Brexiter Patrick Minford said that whilst we would survive with a hard Brexit, manufacturing would be wiped out. It looks like he was onto something. :(

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even the main Brextremists are admitting we be poorer and Boris heard say f business because they telling the truth and more people realising vast majority of people gonna lot lot poorer

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Indeed one does not need to be Einstein to realise we are going to be poorer as even most Brexit voters fully admit that as a clear consequence of Brexit but alas OB can't take off his rose tinted political glasses to realise that Dave.

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Indeed, Denphone. Whilst I thought Comical Ali was killed after the Iraq invasion, it appears he is still alive and living in Wokingham. :D
However, the economic impacts of Brexit are no laughing matter. :( Losing frictionless access to the largest market in the world for goods and services and one that is on our doorstep together with all its free trade deals across the world with countries like Chile, Canada and South Korea does not mean that the rest of the world will want to step in and replace it. Indeed, it's countries outside the EU with big investments in the UK like India, Japan and Canada who are warning us about the follies of a hard Brexit, even if the backstop agreement were to permit such a thing!
There's an in-depth article today in the FT looking at customs processes, supply chains and just-in-time manufacturing in the car industry. It makes for sobering reading.
https://www.ft.com/content/8f46b0d4-...7-1e1a0846c475

Personally, I'm optimistic that common sense will prevail and that Britain will effectively remain in a customs and goods union with the EU.

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No-one here has yet explained why more trade makes us poorer. Do you actually know, or are you simply chanting the same old mantra?

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Hold on, I never accepted being a lot, lot poorer, just a bit poorer, tiny bit at that

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We will get a deal, and we will have a frictionless border. All these negative scenarios about being poorer are based on an assumption that this will not happen.

How, exactly, do you think we will be able to forge our own trade deals if we remain in the customs union? That notion is a fantasy. The government has made it very clear. We will be out of the EU, out of the common market and out of the customs union. A way will be found to achieve a frictionless border.

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l don't chant any mantra at all as l don't follow any crowd as please explain and prove to me why you don't think this country will not be poorer? as thus so far all we have so far is your usual very predictable straw man argument approach.

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As Professor Minford of Economists for Brexit made clear, we're part of a European supply change. He was in favour of a hard Brexit but said that the UK would cease to be a significant manufacturer if that happened. We don't have the kind of internal supply chain that larger countries like China do. By geography we are part of a European supply chain.
I'm afraid the cat's out of the bag and the implications of the choices that the country has to make are becoming clear. Boris's F-business rant says it all and unlike the Heathrow vote, he can't fly out of the country to miss it.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 ----------

You'd be better off posing that question to a Trump supporter on that thread.
The question with Brexit is how less trade with the developing world, Asia Pacific, America and Europe and on worse terms with more red tape will make us richer.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I've already explained myself. There will be more trade because we will get a tariff free trade deal and there will be frictionless borders. That will not make us poorer, now, will it?

However, a hard Brexit would make us a bit poorer for a time, while we adjust to the new arrangements.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

Your first paragraph again refers to a hard Brexit. That is what we will not have under the Government's plan.

Your second paragraph assumes that our trade with the rest of the world will diminish, whereas our ability to forge new trade deals tailored to our needs will increase it.

I agree that without a trade deal, WTO rules for all our trade will produce disruption in the short term, but that is not the scenario the government envisages.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Your "a lot poorer" might be someone else's " a bit poorer" ;)

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You only get frictionless trade by staying in the Customs Union and Single Market or something very close to it. Neither is acceptable to the business hating elite like BoJo and Rees-Mogg.

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We do not need to be in a customs union. We can have an agreement which does not fetter our ability to trade with the rest of the world, but there is no point in staying in the Customs Union but pulling out of the EU. That simply doesn't make sense.

We will get a bespoke deal that addresses all these issues, but remaining in the Customs Union won't be one of them. If it was, we would be better staying in the EU, and that's what I would call looking forward to a dystopian future, where we lose the ability to govern ourselves and by stealth have all our freedoms taken away by bureaucrats, who finally thwart the politicians.

The future outside of the EU, by comparison, is distinctly rosy. I do believe the country is ready to take on the challenge.

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

I think you will find that this is based on a hard Brexit and falling back on WTO rules.

I see no reason why the country would be poorer if Theresa May achieves the trade deal she's said she will get, and remains confident of getting.

---------- Post added at 12:21 ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 ----------

That's right, Pierre. Anyway, there are no shortage of ideas being put forward which could be harnessed to provide a solution to the Irish border 'problem'. Here's another one.

https://brexitcentral.com/practical-...-irish-border/

Extract:

Tier 1: Gold Standard treatment: Major Authorised Economic Operators (MAEO) for major commercial operations carrying high volume, low risk traffic. The EU already has an operational AEO scheme with lorries carrying stickers in their windows. A similar system is used on the US/Canadian and Mexican borders entitled Free and Safe Trade (FAST). This involves a number of checks in advance and participants declare their cargoes in advance online. No checks are made at the border.

The existing ‘trusted trader’ scheme works very well alongside: this ensures commercial operators that meet certain standards are given a special status with reduced paperwork, fewer document controls, priority treatment, and reduced delays and inspections. This is again successfully used on the US-Canada border with trucks hardly changing gear.

Tier 2: Silver Standard: A Special Authorised Economic Operators (SpAEO) based too on the existing EU AEO scheme but limited to the island of Ireland. This will be for the majority of participants and be more relaxed and very affordable for the MAEO treatment. Everything would be online and everyone would have their own account.

This scheme would work well for the estimated 80-90 percent of cross border trade in Ireland accounted for by small businesses – SMEs or micro-businesses – which are predominately in agriculture.

Tier 3: Bronze Standard: Pre-arrival Customs Clearance (PACC). This is based on best practice in pre-clearance systems worldwide and is limited to occasional and low-value transactions, and small scale operators in vans. It would all be done online.

The aim would be to make the system no more onerous than making an online application for a credit card or the London congestion charge system where payments can be made in advance or on the following day. The PACC’s aim should be to clear in as little as one hour before travel, a performance standard major countries meet now. The EU Customs Code already provides for the Simplified/Supplemental Declaration procedure for registered businesses.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

BREAKING: European Union Withdrawal Bill receives Royal Assent from the Queen. Brexit becomes Law.

:cleader::cleader::cleader:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Only because Ireland has an opt out. What if Ireland decides to become a part of the SA?

It doesn't, which is why being a member of the CU has not made us poorer, at all.

The EU are the ones who are pro trade, not the ones that are pro union / anti-globalization and protectionist.

That would be the modern day populists in the UK government and round the world.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I’d have to look into it to be sure but I suspect Ireland is outside Schengen because the U.K. is. The British Isles has a common travel area of its own, which long predates Schengen. Ireland may well desire to be within Schengen but the reality is that if they were forced to choose - and they were - then the CTA is of greater value to them. Think of it as the Brexit/Irish border issue viewed from a different angle.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You can almost smell freedom in the air ;)

:cleader::woot::cleader::woot::cleader::woot:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No...none of the vote to leave the EU has at all, to date.

Let's see what we can make of it, though.

You are right, the UK does not need to be in a custom's union...nobody is disputing that.

You just can't have friction-less trade with the EU then.

Your call to make.

How can you be so sure that you will get such a deal...how do you know that other nations don't just say "thanks, but no - we don't want a FTA with the UK either...we'll just go to WTO rules as well". Well?

Half of the country was avidly opposed to taking the challenge in the first place....

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Maybe if more of them took the time to glance out of the windows in their Ivory Towers, they would have turned up to vote :p:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The reason I raised the question was because of this article, written almost 10 years ago:

Could Ireland join Schengen?

If Eire did start to review its Schengen options, that would add another challenge to the "open" border solution.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If Ireland joined Shengen, then they would be responsible for the hard border, not the UK.

---------- Post added at 18:11 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

To be precise, it's the Government's call. It doesn't matter what I say, I don't have the power to make it happen.

You are continuing to ignore the simple fact that the EU exports more to us than we do to them. These other EU countries have already started to express disquiet with Barnier's hard line approach. Watch this space.

By the way, it was less than half the electorate that voted to remain, not half. And those that didn't vote don't care or haven't a clue.

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

...And they said it wouldn't happen!

Well, guess what, folks....... :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Or weren't worried either way so can be allocated the same division as those that actually could be arsed to get out. The result still stands.

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Yeah, we leave. The EU. The Single Market. The customs union.

Right, that's that clear. :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

OB, you are falling into the Brexit "will of the people" trap. You well know that the percentage of the electorate who voted Leave was 37% ...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Read this today in the Times:

Attachment 27460

It is pretty vicious. The party that used to be the "Party of Business" seems no more. The author may have a (Murdoch) axe to grind but this is pretty accurate:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yep l posted the link earlier with balance but as usual the usual ad nauseam straw man argument repeated itself yet again.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I was referring, of course, to the section of the electorate who voted, as the remainder of my posts have made very clear. Why pull hairs? It doesn't make you right if you pull a pedantic fast one.

---------- Post added at 20:33 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

He was talking about those who tell themselves that they represent business. You know, like the unions say they represent employees.

And you mustn't forget that Boris is Boris. :D

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:33 ----------

Well, if your arguments are relying on straw for support, don't be surprised if someone effortlessly blows them down, Den.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think Boris is almost trying to get fired. His backing off from Heathrow doesn't help either.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

And you need to be kept being told when you keep bringing this incorrect assertion, that you need to stop bringing in people who were not eligible to vote or could not be arsed to vote, in your percentage calculations, it’s a false narrative.

The EU referendum vote was one of the largest Democratic processes in modern political history, the result is the will of the people, 52% to be precise, any other figure by you, is clutching at straws and is incorrect!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It is pointless to bring non-voters into the equation as they had a choice and didn't care enough to vote. I think there is a valid point about young people who've had this decision which will impact them made by older generations but I guess this is true of all elections and it's rarely a demographic that the electorate seems to care about so it's not unusual.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This was on Channel 4 last night, a briefing to the new US Ambassador to London on Brexit - https://twitter.com/davemacladd/stat...786314240?s=19. The full program is here - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/i...mand/66335-001 with that clip 21 minutes in.

Yikes!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Fake News! Nothing incorrect here .. Brexit was decided by 37% of the electorate. The Will of (Some Of The) People :)

---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:54 ----------

Yikes indeed. A brutal assessment of the Brexit shambles by the US diplomats.

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 21:57 ----------

You have highlighted the important aspect of this vote that sets it apart from the others. The older generation voted for their vision of the UK's future, a future that a lot of them will not see. They decided, which is their right, the future of their grandchildren but here's the rub: the people who will inherit their decision, overwhelmingly, did not want it.

It highlights a paradox: normally, throughout human evolution, parents & grandparents make decisions that will better, financially, socially, etc. their offspring. In a lot of situations, the older generations have gone without so that their offspring will have a better chance in life. In this case, the older generation have determined that the future they want (but a lot will not see) is the opposite of that the younger generation desire.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yep, the 37% who felt strongly enough about it to go out and vote . . . as opposed to those who didn't bother because their masters told them 'it will never happen' :p:

Considering the 'younger generation' probably outnumber the 'older generation' (I've no idea what age groups you're implying), it seems obvious that the 'younger generation' did the usual thing of sitting on their arse while someone else did the work :D

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When I said younger people I meant people who were not eligible to vote.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

aah ok, I see what you mean.

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Thanks for posting that. Always good to see the UK being analysed through an overseas pair of eyes.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oddly enough, I was thinking that today may have been the first time we had seen a cabinet secretary just vote no / revolt on Heathrow even with CR still in place, go against the 3 / whip line and still remain FS.

I think he didn't want to waste that on the airport vote, which like he has said is not likely to proceed anyway (court challenges, future governments etc) so why waste his new found way of tormenting May on a nothing vote.

Speaking cabinet bickering, Liz Truss was the latest one to wade in...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...inet-colleague

She took a shot at Gove:

She then took swipes at other male members:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...rning-12800328

That combined with swipes at Doughnut eating and obesity seem like swipes at remain turned leaver Hunt.

Swipes also at Javid and Williamson who seem to have done the same and sympathy for Hammond who has to find money for all this "increased budgeting".

Oh, and the macho nature of government.

So she got her shots in, now I think it is high time for a fight within the Johnson family so that we can turn this Jerry Springer cabinet into a Maury Povich family split.

The brunt of her attack was saved for the bc / illegitimate offspring of the cabinet, Michael Gove but she laid it on pretty thick for the rest.

Less Hammond of course, who is her boss after all.

In some circles, many would call May her ultimate boss. But of course most of us don't believe in Narnia.

You know as much as I have criticized May, if I were in the cabinet / an MP, I would do the same as every other member ; trash the living crap out of her, either through frustration or an ego boost / thrill seeking and then glare her down and ask her what the hell she was going to do about it.

Good times. :D

Odds on next cabinet member to rip the rest a new one / humiliate May? What does everyone think?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If that is the best reply you can come up with OB then that just shows the feebleness of your argument..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is a deal to negotiate but that's between the members of the Cabinet who need to agree what rules they want to follow :D

There are some areas around the fringes like health cards, repayment periods etc and maybe the terminology used for any UK-EU customs union but generally, what's on offer depends on what rules the UK is happy to follow. Want to use the golf club toilets if you're in the area and caught short? You must pay £1 towards costs and agree to flush the toilet afterwards or the club chairman will fine you. Don't agree to allow the club chairman to fine you if you don't flush the toilet? Sorry, you can't use the toilet, that's unfair on the members.

As you point out, it's apparent from postings on here that many fail to get this but this lack of understanding also extends to some Labour and Conservative MPs. And some who do get it will doubtless be happy to talk up a potential deal that could only happen if Aslan and not Theresa May was PM. :D
There is a great quote that summarises the situation:
The third country bit was not fully appreciated by MPs when British classic car fan and EU Chief Negotiator Guy Verhofstadt appeared in front of the Exiting the European Union Committee in Westminster recently.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8416076.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They played pokemon go on their phones confident that they had an 87% chance of winning the remain vote ,ah well such is life , they can teach their children why it's wrong to play games instead of voting .

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You can't vote if you're under 18.

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You are wrong and I will keep telling you this no matter how many times you bring it up.

You cannot bring in people who could not be arsed to vote and people ineligible to vote. 52% of those who decided to vote in one of the biggest ever democratic processes, chose Brexit. NO other figure you bring is relevant-end of!

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I don't believe any one suggested they could .

Re: Brexit discussion
 

And I was unable to vote to prevent the UK joining the bloc as it was back in the 70's. MY future was decided back then for me as well, that I did not want. That's life.

Suggesting old people shouldn't vote on something because they won't be around in the future, is ageism and is prejudice and it is not acceptable to say old people have less of a say than young people, everyone has equal say, no matter what. (I am not saying you are personally saying this but it's the impression I am getting from others).

It is no point the young who were eligible to vote, complaining now, when they had the chance to vote and papa says, were too busy trying to hunt pokoman's. :rolleyes:

It was the biggest mistake joining a union that became corrupt and so financially unbalanced, in where we have now only 10 member States, who put more in to the EU, than get out and we are one of them, that's some significant downfall and is not sustainable as we are finding out.

Thank goodness we are finally leaving that corrupted mess, the pathetic shackles they had on us will finally be removed. 40 years in the making, there is no way in hell, I would have voted for that, if I was eligible to, back in the 70's.

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It was a feeble reply to a feeble post, Den. Your post said nothing except that you had an alternative view. But we all know that already.

I have conveyed my view, with justifications, on many occasions now, and so Andrew's 'straw man' argument that you have taken to repeating doesn't stand up in the first place.

---------- Post added at 09:22 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

Agreed, Mick. In all previous generations, younger people have turned to older people to get the wisdom of their experience. Old people want the best for their younger ones and sometimes have to save them from themselves.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Precisely and the older types will do their best to prevent another disaster with a Jeremy Corbyn government, as the young, have been brainwashed in to believing he will be their saviour, should he ever get in to number 10.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Unfortunately in this case they got it totally wrong.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's funny how often what's best for young people is to cut their benefits, mental health services and support for educational funding whilst increasing the amount given out for pensions isn't it?

Although there are exceptions the evidence suggests demographics as a whole vote in their own best interest. Young people vote for parties that'll make university cheaper, Older people vote for parties which will increase their pensions. It would be better to be honest about that rather than pretend it's altruistic.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What nonsense! Older people encourage the young to go out and work to support their families instead of sleeping in and relying on benefits.

Only those in genuine need should get handouts from taxpayers' money.

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 ----------

No, they didn't, you young whippersnapper! :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's probably why their health services should be cut too.

Young people aren't stupid, they know why the government is doing it. So it's no surprise that someone like Corbyn makes inroads.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Like the libdems , how's that working out for you ?

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Older people suffer far more than young people from cuts to health benefits, and let's not forget who trashed our economy. Christ!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well I old enough that it didn't hit me. I am not part of the 'young' demographic.

Well it wasn't the young people who'll have to pay for it.

And I am not talking about the NHS generally since I agree they would disproportionately suffer. I am talking about sexual and mental health services aimed at teenagers and young adults which were closed. Youth centers too incidentally. If it's aimed at young people and paid for by government chances are it's been cut/abolished.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Unfortunately nothing. No they, we haven’t!

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Once again, you are forgetting whose negligence it was that we were unable to cope with the financial crisis that beset us prior to the 2010 coalition government. We are still picking up the tab for that.

So where is the money coming from to do all the things you want the NHS to pay for, all the benefits to be paid, etc? Yes, it's getting even more difficult as the oldies retire in greater numbers and the young find they have to start paying their way.

To be fair, most do, but the increase in the number of people who think the money should just land on their plates is worrying.

Anyway, one way of making more money to provide for people is for this country to increase its income. Brexit provides us with an opportunity to do that. Continued membership of the EU is steadily but slowly leading to economic stagnation, and it will get far worse with the next financial crisis.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

aye the bankers so even Brextremists cant blame EU for that

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The actual economic shock was indeed the bankers, but if Labour hadn't spent every last penny of our money during the good years, this would not have turned into a crisis for the UK. That's a matter of record now.

Agreed, the EU were not responsible for that either, but their crazy Euro project was so ill thought out that there were casualties like Greece, Portugal and Spain, which almost brought all the dominos down with catastrophic effect. It will happen again, and next time these economies may collapse altogether because it will take so long for them to recover from the last one.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Do you have a link evidencing this then, if it's a matter of record?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You can keep telling me until you are blue in the face but it will not make you right :) The facts are that 37% of the electorate decided the economic future of the entire nation for a generation based on a campaign of lies and misinformation.

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I am not sure Christ was actually to blame :) Rather the bankers I feel. Watch the "'Big Short" and then you will see.

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The arrogance is astounding! The "Old People" "want the best", the "Old People" have "saved" the "Younger People" .. come off it. They didn't give a stuff what the younger generation wanted or needed.

Just be honest, they voted for what they wanted and for no other reason.

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The petulance is astounding .......

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Inane one-line replies aside, care to explain how my analysis is wrong?

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No, Christ wasn’t to blame and if you also would like to stop the ‘straw man’ arguments, you will see I acknowledged both the bankers’ role and Labour’s role in our economic collapse.

As for your comment that the older generation don’t care about the younger generation, I think that says rather a lot about you and your attitude.

I love my daughters and grandkids and want a better life for them than I had. So how dare you!

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Trying to skew the argument to an attack on you and your personal family is beneath you. You know full well that the overwhelmingly majority of younger voters wanted to Remain and an equally overwhelmingly majority of older voters did not:

How Britain Voted

Play the ball and not the man ..

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He was being sarcastic and you full well know it. It is not the fault of Christ but your grammar in the previous message was so bad, it looked like you were blaming Jesus.

If you could learn to type (and quit lying while you were at it) it would help.

Fine but how about you return the favor and quit making up random crap about everyone, too?

You have done it twice to me, in the space of a couple weeks and you know full well that Ianch99 was not being serious, making a joke - due to your inability to articulate.

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My bad .. I have removed my post to stop any confusion.

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Me too - hopefully a staff member will come in and clean the entire chain. :)

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Yes, the younger voters did tend to vote remain (I won't sink to the level of saying that this was largely due to Labour's lies about the tuition fees because I don't know whether that was the significant factor) but my point was, as I'm sure you are aware, that older voters on the whole were mindful of the impact of the referendum on the younger generation.

Why would older people vote for a worse future for their sons, daughters and grandchildren? Your argument doesn't make sense unless you yourself don't give a fig. In which case, I just hope for the sake of your offspring that your attitude changes with maturity.

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Of course he was, and so was I. Did you see what I did there?

Incidentally, I am completely at a loss about the alleged bad grammar and 'making up random c**p'. What the hell are you talking about? Would you care to elaborate so I can give a sensible response to your post?

By the way, we are debating issues here, no need to get personal. :sorry:

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One of the reasons I wanted to remain was because of my kids. I don’t really talk about it much on here as it is more about feelings and a little self serving but here it is as we are talking about age...

My kids are 10 and 12 and as they get older, I would very much like them to work abroad. Casual work would be fine - strap on a rucksack and get out there and do bar or restaurant work for the summer. I was lucky enough to work abroad when I was 21 and it changed my outlook on life completely. It’s tough moving to another country, it definitely makes you grow up quick! It also gives you a much broader outlook on different nationalities. That opportunity has been taken away from them and that’s a real shame.

Yes, I am sure they will still be able to get jobs abroad but no way as easily as they could if we stayed in the EU.

See told you it was a bit fluffy and self serving!

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Tell me exactly how saying I care about my offspring is 'skewing' the argument. As it is true, it puts the lie and the nonsense to your argument. Most of the older generation who have children feel this way.

Don't you think you will think that way when you mature?

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No, you confirm my argument nicely, and it is a human argument rather than a strictly political one. Shame you are on the other side of my argument, though!

Seriously, I do understand your point, which I think concentrated on the opportunities youngsters have at that age. My decision was based more on the economy, and ensuring that my kids and theirs as they get older are able to share in the wealth that a healthy and vibrant economy can bring.

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My main reason for voting the way I did was the economy too, working g for a company that trades internationally distils down just how simple trade is in the EU. Through working various places, I would consider some Germans (especially) Belgians and Swedes amongst my best friends. The kid thing was second but still very important.

If you put the economy in there and then go back to Norman Tebbits ‘get on your bike and find work’ speech, then the distance we can cycle has become significantly less.

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In an earlier post you prayed in aid to your shallow argument a so-called quote from Churchill. I can't find that quote and I've asked several times for you to point me (and everyone else) to the actual words issued by the great man. You're at perfect liberty to ignore the challenge, but if you can't substantiate what you said your credibility is shot.

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This is an entirely respectable point of view. I know many parents who voted remain in deference to their kids and their perception of how they could take advantage of European integration. It's prolly why the result was 52/48 and not 55/45.

As I've said before, I'm not going to complain if we stay in the EU provided we keep our picador sticks sharp for prodding the Brussels turds. Also we need to keep sharp about German hegemony, keep in mind the German engineering the Euro to their advantage and French objection to CAP reform.

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:p:

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He means when you grow up [ it's anyone's guess what you might mature into]:D

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I know. Glad I made you laugh. This thread needs to lighten up.

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So true! I will try and be "grown up" :)

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For those who are just too lazy to do some research, here is the text of Churchill's speech in 1957 where he expresses his wish for a United Europe and the UK to join a European free trade area:

The Unwritten Alliance By Winston S. Churchill

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Putting this here since it's a positive development about the economy which is kind Brexit related: https://order-order.com/2018/06/28/b...ssie-warships/

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Good news for once.:tu: