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Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

"Indeed, it [referring to what makes a people--nationalism in Europe, an idea in the United States] seems to bind us much more strongly than most nations. If I were to move to the UK, and became a citizen there, I would forever be thought of by the British as being "American".

Well, yes, because Britain acknowledges the concept of "Dual Nationality", but to become an American citizen you have to recite an oath part of which says "'I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic....''.

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"But you're American if you think you're American, and are willing to give up what you used to be in order to be one of us. That's all it takes."

That's *ALL* it takes? Give up *everything* that's defined your life previously to become an American??? Oh, well *that's* no big deal!

Although I wonder if the author of that piece has been to Little China, or Little Italy, or Little Russia or Little Cuba or talked to a large number of Hispanics who don't even *speak* the same language as him...!!!

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"It is not just that they don't understand that idea; most of them don't even realize it exists, because Europeans have no equivalent, and some who have an inkling of it dismiss it contemptuously."

Or consider that Dual Citizenship is actually not that bad a thing after all.

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It is that idea that explains why we don't care what Europeans think of us, and why European disapproval of our actions has had no effect on us. It is that idea which explains why, in fact, we're willing to do what we think is right even if the entire rest of the world disapproves.

Translation: It's that which makes some of us arrogant ba$$$$ds who think that we have the right to do what we want and to hell with anyone else because we're the biggest bully on the block!

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Our freedom of speech and the press are critically different. In large parts of Europe, hate speech is a crime. But in America, hate speech is protected speech. So when a French judge tried to order an American company to remove Nazi symbols from their site in the US, an American judge told the French judge to get stuffed.

Maybe if the US had actually *experienced* Nazi occupation they might have a different view on the situation.

(NB I don't approve of the laws in France and Germany that proscribe this sort of thing, but I understand why they have them)

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A Brit who shoots a burglar in his home may land in prison. An American who does the same will probably be treated as a hero. That idea we share admits of no other conclusion; the man who kills a dangerous intruder in his home proves his dedication to that idea as strongly as anyone can without serving the nation in wartime.

And what about the one who accidentally shoots an innocent person...? Of course in America the intruder is *much* more likely to be armed...! (Oh gods, but *please* let's not start that debate again!!)

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"Some Europeans finally come to understand that idea--and most of those end up emigrating. (And they're welcome, too.)"

And the US is welcome to them...! ;)

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To this post, Steve got a reply:

He probably got *lots* of replies, but, from what I can see, since it's *his* site, he can pick and choose which ones he repeats!

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We are Americans because we believe in ourselves. We believe we can accomplish much, and we're damned well not going to let others prevent us from doing so, others who are rich in words but poor in actions, others who have no ideals, no honor

Gods, if this was The Goodies I could just imagine Tim Brooke-Taylor standing there with his Union Flag and tape recorder playing "Land of Hope and Glory"

Unfortunately what this *really* reveals is that many Americans (without really knowing it) suffer from a "cultural inferiority complex". For instance Eddie Izzard once quipped "I come from Europe. You know, the place where history comes from!"

The USA are, when it comes down to it, the "new kids on the block" (no, *not* the boy band!). They talk about "Old Europe" as if "old" is bad and "new" is good, failing to realise that we've been working out how to get along since before their country ever existed.

Many of them are brash, arrogant, loud and attention seeking, just like a kid. "Hey, look at us! We're here, we're powerful, we're going to do what we want and screw the rest of you!" and seem upset when people suggest they settle down and use their brains rather than their mouths (or their "fists").

By the way, that doesn't mean that *all* Americans are like that, far from it, but unfortunately the ones we hear the most from are the loudest :(

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Graham

Not even for old times sake?:D

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Graham

Well, yes, because Britain acknowledges the concept of "Dual Nationality", but to become an American citizen you have to recite an oath part of which says

Graham, I am pretty sure that you know that is not what Steve meant. Ignore the legal crap, and read that paragraph again. What he was saying is that, even if an American moves to Britain and renounces his American citizenship, Britains will keep thinking of him as a yank. This is even moreso in France. No matter what I do, I can't move to France and be considered French by the locals. I will always be a second-class citizen.

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Originally Posted by Graham

That's *ALL* it takes? Give up *everything* that's defined your life previously to become an American??? Oh, well *that's* no big deal!

I am glad we agree, because I gave up everything to become what I am.

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Although I wonder if the author of that piece has been to Little China, or Little Italy, or Little Russia or Little Cuba or talked to a large number of Hispanics who don't even *speak* the same language as him...!!!

There is a saying... When in Rome, do as the Romans do. I get quite annoyed by all these idiots that move here, and then decide they're going to set up their own mini country inside mine. For crying out loud, go back! Why leave in the first place?

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Or consider that Dual Citizenship is actually not that bad a thing after all.

He isn't talking about citizenship!!! He is talking about WHO YOU ARE AT HEART.

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Translation: It's that which makes some of us arrogant ba$$$$ds who think that we have the right to do what we want and to hell with anyone else because we're the biggest bully on the block!

You're just annoyed that we don't consult with stupid third-world countries and Europe before we do something.

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Maybe if the US had actually *experienced* Nazi occupation they might have a different view on the situation.

Doubtful.

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(NB I don't approve of the laws in France and Germany that proscribe this sort of thing, but I understand why they have them)

I don't. It is simply the government trying to regulate morality and forcing its will onto the people.

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He probably got *lots* of replies, but, from what I can see, since it's *his* site, he can pick and choose which ones he repeats!

WHAT exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

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They talk about "Old Europe" as if "old" is bad and "new" is good, failing to realise that we've been working out how to get along since before their country ever existed.

Yes it is really funny how a continent of some 300 million odd people has started two world wars, experienced three, four dictators, not to mention the tens of civil wars inside Europe the past 500 years.

Come the United States. 50 independent States, joining a Union, with one civil war. No dictators. Prosperous for the past 200 odd years.

In the meantime, Europe still can't get its own continent under control (*cough* Bosnia) and had as recently as 1990s a genocidal maniac running around in the backyard (Milosovich).

Yes, old in this case seems to be bad.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Lets dig a little deeper and go to fascism.

http://denbeste.nu/external/Zinmeister01.html

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The European press labeled our President a "murderer" for allowing the execution of Timothy McVeigh. Euro politicians and reporters have taken to casually calling Americans "toxic," "thugs," "imperialists," and "gangsters." In 2001, Europeans conspired to get the U.S. removed from the U.N. Human Rights Commission, offering our seat instead to Sudan and Libya, those paragons of liberty. European politicians have recently attacked and undercut the U.S. on North Korea, on the Middle East, over the Afghan war, about prisoners at Guantanamo, at multiple environmental conclaves, regarding the International Criminal Court, in scores of trade battles, on missile defense, and at other occasions too numerous to count. SchrÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€*Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¶der simply fanned this flame to revive his faltering campaign.

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For everyday, non-political Americans, Europe is simply not a preoccupation one way or the other. It is Canada with castles, as one acquaintance puts it--a nice place, but hardly the furnace where our future will be forged. Given our fundamental belief that each person and nation should be free to solve their own problems, average Americans are perfectly content to have Europeans go their own way. If the Euros think welfare statism and E.U. regulation is their ticket to prosperity, they're welcome to try. If they believe they're safer without a ballistic missile shield than with one, we say Godspeed to them.

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If Europeans want to ban the death penalty, that's fine with Americans; but don't ask us to follow the same dictate. If Europeans think selling military technology to North Korea and Iran, and helping Libya and Iraq with their oil industries is a good idea, expect not a shred of support from the U.S. If Europeans believe their determination to send billions of dollars to Yasser Arafat is likely to speed peace in the Middle East, we won't stop them.

If enough of these divergences accumulate, however, Americans may eventually be forced to conclude that, as economist Irwin Stelzer has put it, many European nations "are ceasing, or may have already ceased, to be our friends."

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The U.S. has also decentralized physically, with new nodes of power and wealth sprouting all across our continent. Outlying cities like Charlotte, Fargo, Phoenix, Austin, Manchester, and Omaha have become economic dynamos. Widened prosperity and new communication technologies have made it possible for America's most productive workers to live where they choose. The U.S. is completely unlike European states--where power is almost always concentrated in one great city. If you want to be part of the action in France, you must be in Paris; in England, it's London. In America, by contrast, people and wealth are increasingly dispersed throughout the country. We may hope that entry into the E.U. of the Eastern Europeans (who have experienced the dark side of statism) will moderate Europe's centralizing mania, but that remains to be seen.

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First economics. We have conventionally thought of Europe as having about the same standard of living as Americans. This is less and less true. For the European Union as a whole, GDP per capita is presently less than two thirds of U.S. levels. America's poorest sub-groups, like African Americans, now have higher average income levels than the typical European.

What's behind this? For one thing, Americans work harder: 72 percent of the U.S. population is at work, compared to only 58 percent in the E.U. American workers also put in more hours. And U.S. workers are more productive--an E.U. worker currently produces 73 cents worth of output in the same period of time a U.S. worker creates a dollar's worth.

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Over the long haul, these sorts of disparities add up to crunching economic divergences. Since 1970, America has produced 57 million new jobs. The E.U. nations, with an even bigger population, have produced 5 million (most of them with the government). A startling 40 percent of the unemployed in Europe have been out of work for more than a year, compared to only 6 percent in the U.S.

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At the same time they've bet the farm on swiss-cheese treaties, the Europeans have pared their military spending to the point where the entire continent now has approximately the same force-projecting power as the Swiss navy. (See our lead item in SCAN documenting the collapse of our allies' strength.) American military spending now totals more than the next nine largest national defense budgets combined. Even more significantly, the U.S. now pays for almost 80 percent of the world's military R & D.

Without admitting it, the Europeans have essentially decided to rely on the U.S. to keep them safe. American taxpayers are paying to build a missile defense system, an unchallengeable air force, and a fleet of 13 separate supercarriers with attendant air wings and naval battle groups. Europeans are concentrating on producing richer foie gras, art museums, and corporate subsidies. They could do much more to help guard the West without straining themselves/

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Today the respective positions are very different. The U.S. now produces 30 percent of global GDP; as recently as the late 1980s the figure was just 22 percent. Fully half of all Internet traffic takes place in America. Three quarters of all Nobel laureates in science, medicine, and economics have lived and worked in the U.S. in recent decades. Given the very different population trends on either side of the Atlantic, America's lead will only widen in the future.

And that, everyone, is the difference between the United States and Europe, and why the rest of the world hates us.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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If they believe they're safer without a ballistic missile shield than with one, we say Godspeed to them.

I'm curious, where have they got with this system? Last time I heard they needed an observation centre in yorkshire to track the missles, but of course yorkshire has no defense system, so a quick nuke to yorkshire and the US is wide open :dozey:

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Have you seen our tabloids, the daily mail hates everyone/thing in the world, we have comedians doing mocking impressions of our politions and then go out in the street in front of the public causing trouble. As opposed to the US where one must swear loyalty and where anti-war protestors get beat up.

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If I recall America trained Sadam Husain as an assasin.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

As long as we are posting half-baked opinions and carefully selected facts, here is a quote from a republican American's personal website - the FAQ section:

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Why do you rip on Canadians?
I am half Canadian. By being half Canadian, and seeing their culture and ways I know Canada. There are some things I like such as how nice they are (jerkoffs wave at you for no reason), how nice Canada is, and some of their food is pretty decent. I like how some stick with Butter rather than gay Margerine. Margerine is for fags! They also make great Maple Syrup. My mom lives in Canada and I have been there plenty.

I think their national anthym is especially gay. I think it's gay how they put French on all their stuff. They are sellouts to the French and allow them to control them even thought hey lost the war. I also spit on their queen and their worship of the queen. They are slaves to their queen but you can never get them to admit that. You know their country sucks when they need a "I AM CANDIAN" beer commercial to energize their pride in their own country. The guy in the commercial moved to the US. hahahaha. I hate how they got no real roads and the best you find in most areas are 2 lane roads but it's nice that they have little traffic which makes more better driving. I hate all countries other than the US and I hate Canada the LEAST of those other countries. So for allies I would pick Canada over anyone else. I would say Canada is the second coolest country besides the US.

I don't mind Canadians usually unless they are talking about their stupid country (who cares) or "being Canadian".

Canada has no real military and have never done anything I consider to be valuable other than being the nice neighbors up north.

The only thing worse than a Canadian is a French Canadian! Even most Canadians don't like French Canadians.

How do you feel about Europe/Europeans?
I only know what I've seen based online, TV, news reports, and what I've read in books. Because I disagree with Euros (Obviously) or Euro loving Democrats, they choose to dub that as being ignorant. But it's very ignorant to dub anyone who disagrees with your opinions as being ignorant. Here is my problem with some/most Euros:
Many Euros hate America. They want nothing more to see America fail despite us being responsible for continually protecting, saving, helping them out. Many Euros were happy about 9/11 "putting us in our place."

They are a collection of WASHED up former world super-powers. That makes them really angry/jealous that they are no longer in charge of the world like we (United States are). That means whenever they see the US do something cool, it makes them angry because it wasn't them.

Euros want their countries to be restored to their former glory. It's never going to happen though, get used to it!

Euros have no appreciation for the United States saving them from the Nazi. How soon they forget. We went over there and died for them, we even payed a lot of cash to rebuild their stupid countries. You would think that would cause them to respect us. They loved us shortly after WW II, but now they have forgotton.

Many Euros are godless infidels concerning sex who sleep around with anything and everything. They are very public about it too unlike America. Fire and Brimstone please.
Euros think they have the right to stick their noses into our business. We (America) doesn't give a crap about your country so why don't you do the same to us. You stick to your business and we'll stick to ours. Why are you speaking english ? Because you're a slave to our will. OUR INTERNET. You speak our language if you want to survive! haha.
Euros want to turn American into crappy countries like theirs.
Euros often support whoever is on the OPPOSITE side of America.
Hairy Armpit ladies! Yuck!
Funny Quotes:

[Gart] Euros aren't troubled by the fact that the only people in America they identify with are daft hollywood actors and actresses. Something's wrong with Barbra Streisand is on your side =[
Isn't it racist to say bad things about Europe/Europeans?
Not at all. America is made up of people from all over the world. People of all countries/colors. This is not a race thing. It's more like nationalism. Euro isn't about skin color.

"I Demand An Apology To Europe/Europeans?"
I'm sorry America saved you from the Nazis. Maybe then living as slaves you would appreciate us more. Maybe some terrorist acts will wake your ass up like it did us.

I'm a Euro and I'm not like those other fags you mentioned above!
Cool, then you're OK. Not all Euros or European countries are bad. But I enjoy lumping multiple countries into "Euros". Take it.

I'm A Euro Living in America And I Agree!
Good! I respect Euros that come to America and embrace our culture and appreciatewhat America has given them. I came from English Euros in the 1600s! Most of us were Euros at one point, the question is, have we left that nonsense behind or do we still hold on to the past! But don't just hate every Euro/European country unless they give you a good reason. Usually it's people that are wrong and not entire nations. But when the majority of them are wrong, it's time to blame all of them! =]

I'm A Euro Living In America And You're Wrong!
Hey we got plenty of stupid people in our country from Democrats to Euros just using us before they go back to their country and join in the hatred of America. The worst are people to come abuse us while hating us at the same time. If you don't like America, go somewhere else. If you intend to stay, you're FREE to do so but feel our hatred =]

I'm A Euro and I Love My Country!
That's great! There are many awesome Euro countries over there. The German Autobahn rules! People in America love visiting Europe. Europe is cool if you respect America and our love of our country. We'll respect yours as long as it doesn't conflict or come at the expense of our own.

America vs. Euro Don't Bash It Until You've Tried it
Why does everyone in the World want to come here? We're the best! Why do people want to get the hell out of their country and continue to come to ours. We rule. That doesn't mean that your country isn't a nice place to visit or live, but it does mean there is something BETTER in the way that we do things that makes people want to come here.

What European Countries are OK?
I'm sure they are all lovely places to visit. My dad visited a lot of Europe while he was in the Navy. I have his slides. The problem though is SOME/MOST of the people!

I respect Great Britain for their help in WW II and afterwards. I also respect them for their help in the Iraq War.

I have the least respect for France (many Americans hate France), and Germany.

France you have to go back to the 1700s for the last time they were cool to us.

Germany was cool until recently when their lame leader backstabbed us in the Iraqi War and their people supported him. We forgave them being our enemies at the end of WW II and we were buds. Then they stabbed us in the back in 2003 after we pour a lot of money into their country + have a huge army protecting them.

I respect any Euro country that is supporting our War on Terror.

What about rating the World Countries?
USA > UK > Canada > Europe > REST. So if we're against some bad guy, I'll take the Euros on our side if they will help.

What about other countries?
I don't care about them. It's all about the USA and they only matter when it affects us. I don't care about other countries or their opinions on our politics or current events. I'm fine with other countries visiting this site as long as I don't got to hear about their country. USA is the best country in the world, even with it's problems. I would trade it for my own island however =)

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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You know that is not what they are referring to. Try buying a Nazi flag and uniform in Germany. Try buying Mein Kampf.

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If I recall America trained Sadam Husain as an assasin.

Really? Not that I see how it is relevant to the issue at hand, but mind giving me a few sources? Because I have never read that Saddam Hussein is an assassin.

As to your question about the SDI, well, that is a post by itself and I'm going to take a nap now.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

You know that is not what they are referring to. Try buying a Nazi flag and uniform in Germany. Try buying Mein Kampf.

Really? Not that I see how it is relevant to the issue at hand, but mind giving me a few sources? Because I have never read that Saddam Hussein is an assassin.

As to your question about the SDI, well, that is a post by itself and I'm going to take a nap now.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html
http://www.cafeshops.com/pip_cia_saddam

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle2849.htm

Re: anti americanism fashionable

InformationClearingHouse? Lol. And the other two? Look, I can google too.

http://www.flat-earth.org/

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

InformationClearingHouse? Lol. And the other two? Look, I can google too.

http://www.flat-earth.org/

I had heard the fact on a tv program I had to google to find mentions of it. Whats the problem in that?

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Well, we all know that we shouldn't believe what we read in the papers. The same could be said for the tv as well I suppose.....:D

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

InformationClearingHouse? Lol. And the other two? Look, I can google too.

http://www.flat-earth.org/

Jerrek, what is the difference between you posting a link to a site that may or may not be right, and Downquark1 doing the same?

Or do you class everything you don't agree with as wrong, so therefore any links to back it up are wrong?

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Here's where I heard it:
http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/sp...ard_place.html

Very good, you can watch the entire program on stream.

IT would be good if people watched this.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

What he was saying is that, even if an American moves to Britain and renounces his American citizenship, Britains will keep thinking of him as a yank. This is even moreso in France. No matter what I do, I can't move to France and be considered French by the locals. I will always be a second-class citizen.

Fair enough.

But as opposed to, say, all those Polacks, Wops, Guineas, Spics, Niggers etc etc who live in the USA? I suggest you ask certain Right Wing groups if they consider those people to be "proper Americans"!

"I am glad we agree,"

I suggest you read that section again with your sarcasm detector switched on.

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Ah, once again we hear the zeal of the convert!

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You're just annoyed that we don't consult with stupid third-world countries and Europe before we do something.

ROFL!

No, I'm just trying to point out that there aren't two parts to the world, ie "America" and "Everywhere else".

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Maybe if the US had actually *experienced* Nazi occupation they might have a different view on the situation.

"Doubtful"

How do *you* know? What grounds do you use to cast doubt on that?

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WHAT exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Its his site, it's his ball, its his backyard. He can choose who gets to play. For all anyone knows, he could have had a hundred "anti" messages and one "pro" message, and picked the only one that agreed with him.

It's very easy for him to say "yes, look, this guy gets it!" without mentioning all the others who may not have.

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Yes it is really funny how a continent of some 300 million odd people has started two world wars,

I didn't say it was perfect, but let's look at a couple of facts.

The second was as the result of the first. The Treaty of Versailles was a bodge job. The US President *could* have waived or arranged easy terms on the War Debts of France etc, but he didn't. So France demanded Germany take the blame for the war and pay massive reparations. Thus were the seeds for the second world war sewn. The USA is *not* blameless in this.

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experienced three, four dictators, not to mention the tens of civil wars inside Europe the past 500 years.

Come the United States. 50 independent States, joining a Union, with one civil war.

And wars against Mexico, Spain, Britain, etc, the Cold War (and almost plunged the world into nuclear conflict on more than one occasion, not to mention being the only country *ever* to use nuclear weapons). War in Vietnam. Sponsored an attack on Cuba. Actions that are wars by any other name in Latin America. Invaded Grenada(!) etc etc etc...

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No dictators.

"You're either with us or you're against us"? Or how about "Have you ever been a member of the Communist party?"

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Prosperous for the past 200 odd years.

And participated in the slaughter of how many native Americans? Prospered on the land stolen from them and on the back of the slave trade (yes, Europe did too, I don't deny that).

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In the meantime, Europe still can't get its own continent under control (*cough* Bosnia) and had as recently as 1990s a genocidal maniac running around in the backyard (Milosovich). Yes, old in this case seems to be bad.

Sorry, did someone mention Colombia? Or perhaps Chile? Or maybe Peru?

Don't try to paint the USA as perfect, because they aren't by any means!

Re: anti americanism fashionable

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Originally Posted by scastle

Jerrek, what is the difference between you posting a link to a site that may or may not be right, and Downquark1 doing the same?

The difference is that one is an opinion and it is quite clear it is just that: an opinion. The other one is groups trying to present what they have as facts. If it were facts, it would have been all over the news. InformationClearingHouse is just slightly left of Stalin himself.

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Originally Posted by Graham

But as opposed to, say, all those Polacks, Wops, Guineas, Spics, Niggers etc etc who live in the USA? I suggest you ask certain Right Wing groups if they consider those people to be "proper Americans"!

It really depends. If they are not American citizens and they live in the States, but live in a mini country of their own, then NO. They are NOT Americans.

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Originally Posted by Graham

How do *you* know? What grounds do you use to cast doubt on that?

Easy. It isn't in our nature to restrict free speech like that. We had our own civil war, but you don't see us making the Confederate flag illegal. We didn't ban every artifact that could possibly remind people of the Confederation.

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Originally Posted by Graham

And did I say anything on the contrary? This really has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Don't digress.

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The second was as the result of the first. The Treaty of Versailles was a bodge job. The US President *could* have waived or arranged easy terms on the War Debts of France etc, but he didn't. So France demanded Germany take the blame for the war and pay massive reparations. Thus were the seeds for the second world war sewn. The USA is *not* blameless in this.

So, because we don't want to hand out billions of dollars we are to be blamed for the second world war?

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I wasn't talking about foreign wars, and neither was you. Don't ****ing change the subject. We were talking about internal politics. Comparing Europe with the United States. Europe has had it fair share of wars with other countries, and so has the United States. But what I specifically highlighted was the internal civil wars, something Europe is very experienced with.

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"You're either with us or you're against us"? Or how about "Have you ever been a member of the Communist party?"

Pray tell how that has a bearing on the subject at hand.

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And participated in the slaughter of how many native Americans? Prospered on the land stolen from them and on the back of the slave trade (yes, Europe did too, I don't deny that).

They weren't angels thats for sure. But I do believe the United States showed unprecidented growth and prosperity, something Europe nor any other nation have been able to rival.

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Sorry, did someone mention Colombia? Or perhaps Chile? Or maybe Peru?

How does that have to do with the subject at hand? They are all on a different continent!