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Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Taken from todays Times:

November 21, 2003

True fiction

I love a little country, Tony
By Toby Moore
Our writer anticipates President Bush feeling at home in Sedgefield, Tony Blair's constituency

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ÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œFields, Mr President,ÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â corrected an aide, flicking through the briefing note.

............................etc etc
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:rofl:

Very funny and Very true.
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:rofl:

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

This has got nothing to do with courage. I'm not going to get drawn into finger-pointing. You can be sure that if I ever intended to level an accusation at anyone, I would name them, as I often have.

I'm pleased to hear it.

Quote:

If you had read my entire post, instead of just the part you quoted,

It may surprise you to realise that, actually I *did* read the entire post, unfortunately I disagree that...

Quote:

you would have spotted that I was summing up the argument from both sides.

... because comments like ...

"Some of the unsavoury things the USA has done, which have been posted in this thread, do indeed lend weight to the argument that it is not mere fashion to be anti-American just now."

... with caveats such as "some of" and "do lend weight" or "that it is not mere fashion", hardly balance out such a blanket accusation that

" a great many people (some of them in this thread) seem completely unable to acknowledge the fact that an evil situation existed in Iraq and has now been dealt with. This would tend to lend weight to the idea that such people are determinedly anti-American for some other reason, determined as they are to spend all their energies criticising the US while making little effort at all to condemn a murderous dictator or Al Quaeda terrorists."

We go from "some of" to "a great many (some... in this thread)" and "completely unable" and "lend weight" that "such people are determinedly anti-American for some other reason" and "determined to spend all their energies".

Now whilst you may have *tried* to be balanced, unfortunately you did not succeed in your attempt, thus I called you to account for it.

Not because I "want an argument", but because you have, IMO, misrepresented the views of people like me. I will condemn Saddam or Al Qaeda as much as anyone, but that's not what we're discussing here and the fact that they are murderous dictators or terrorists does *not* excuse the US's illegal actions.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Now whilst you may have *tried* to be balanced, unfortunately you did not succeed in your attempt, thus I called you to account for it.

And we can all sleep soundly in our beds knowing that Graham is on hand to call those to account that would post unsatisfactorily on nthellworld. ;)

Given that my point of view is already abundantly clear in this thread, and that I am not 'summing up' in the same sense as a trial judge who is duty-bound to be absolutely impartial, I thought I was quite fair in acknowledging good points made by those I generally am disagreeing with. My post was a general summary, and if it was a direct response to anything, it was purely and simply a response to DQ's point about topic drift in this thread.

And will you please stop mentally inserting your own name in posts I make ... as I said, if I mean you, I'll say you. Some people are condemning the US while excusing the acts of terrorists but I am not stupid enough to make sweeping generalisations and assume that everyone in this thread who has expressed anti-American or anti-war sentiment is also an apologist for terrorism. Where I think that people are apologising for terrorists, I have already said so.

So don't worry, I never thought you were fan of Saddam and Osama.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

And we can all sleep soundly in our beds knowing that Graham is on hand to call those to account that would post unsatisfactorily on nthellworld. ;)

.

:rofl:

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

And we can all sleep soundly in our beds knowing that Graham is on hand to call those to account that would post unsatisfactorily on nthellworld. ;)

<sigh> Oh give it a rest. I'm not getting personal, why do you need to?

Quote:

I thought I was quite fair in acknowledging good points made by those I generally am disagreeing with.

And I didn't. That's why I said it. Not because of any "grudge" against you, nor out of personal vindictiveness, but simply because IMO you got it wrong.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

<sigh> Oh give it a rest. I'm not getting personal?...

Strange how so many posters seem to think that you engage in personal attacks and yet you deny it and continue to engage in posts that are arrogant, intolerent, nasty bullying, intimidatory, make personal attacks and show rudeness.

Still, I suppose you were carrying yesterday one of those stupid posters declaring Bush to be number 1 terrorist at a time when Islamic terrorists were still slaughtering innocents, shame on you.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

<sigh> Oh give it a rest. I'm not getting personal, why do you need to?

<sigh> (especially definition 1c.) Please read the smilies as well as the text, they are there to avoid confusion. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

<sigh> (especially definition 1c.) Please read the smilies as well as the text, they are there to avoid confusion. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Putting a smiley after a comment like your one that I responded to is like saying "no offence" just before saying something offensive or "present company excepted". It doesn't excuse it.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Warning, the following message may contain sarcasm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Wow! That's impressive, we jump from "personal attacks" to "arrogant, intolerent, nasty bullying, intimidatory, make personal attacks and show rudeness."

Damn, but I must be good to manage all that!

Quote:

Still, I suppose you were carrying yesterday one of those stupid posters declaring Bush to be number 1 terrorist at a time when Islamic terrorists were still slaughtering innocents, shame on you.

May I introduce you to my solicitors, Messers Pott and Kettleblack.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Putting a smiley after a comment like your one that I responded to is like saying "no offence" just before saying something offensive or "present company excepted". It doesn't excuse it.

I had absolutely no idea you would find it offensive, and I certainly wasn't trying to offend you. However, clearly I did - so I'm sorry. :Peaceman:

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Thank you for the apology. It's accepted in the spirit it was offered.

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Thank you for the apology. It's accepted in the spirit it was offered.

Then I'm glad of your sincere acceptance of my apology. :) Now what were we talking about?

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Warning, the following message may contain sarcasm...
Wow! That's impressive, we jump from "personal attacks" to "arrogant, intolerent, nasty bullying, intimidatory, make personal attacks and show rudeness."

Damn, but I must be good to manage all that!

.

You certainly are!;) :D

Re: anti americanism fashionable

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

Then I'm glad of your sincere acceptance of my apology. :) Now what were we talking about?

Sorry, can't remember! :D :D :D

Re: anti americanism fashionable

I really like reading http://denbeste.nu, and the author wrote a really interesting article a couple of days ago regarding the differences between Europeans and Americans. Here are some highlights:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/20...ncountry.shtml

Quote:

Indeed, it [referring to what makes a people--nationalism in Europe, an idea in the United States] seems to bind us much more strongly than most nations. If I were to move to the UK, and became a citizen there, I would forever be thought of by the British as being "American". Even if I lived there fifty years, I would never be viewed as British. But Brits who come here and naturalize are thought of as American by those of us who were born here. They embrace that idea, and that's all that matters. If they do, they're one of us. And so are the Persians who naturalize, and the Chinese, and the Bengalis, and the Estonians, and the Russians. (I know that because I've worked with all of those, all naturalized, and all of them as American as I am.)

You're French if you're born in France, of French parents. You're English if you're born to English parents (and Welsh if your parents were Welsh). But you're American if you think you're American, and are willing to give up what you used to be in order to be one of us. That's all it takes. But that's a lot, because "thinking you're American" requires you to comprehend that idea we all share. But even the French can do it, and a lot of them have.

You know, I've never thought of it this way but this is definitely one of the truest statements I've ever read. At least, from my own experiences. He continues:

Quote:

That is a difference so profound as to render all similarities between Europe and the US unimportant by comparison. But it is a difference that most Europeans are blind to, and it is that difference which causes America's attitudes and actions to be mystifying to Europeans. It is not just that they don't understand that idea; most of them don't even realize it exists, because Europeans have no equivalent, and some who have an inkling of it dismiss it contemptuously.

It is that idea that explains why we think being called "cowboys" is a compliment, even when Europeans think it's an epithet. It is that idea that explains why we don't care what Europeans think of us, and why European disapproval of our actions has had no effect on us. It is that idea which explains why, in fact, we're willing to do what we think is right even if the entire rest of the world disapproves.

Quote:

Our freedom of speech and the press are critically different. In large parts of Europe, hate speech is a crime. But in America, hate speech is protected speech. So when a French judge tried to order an American company to remove Nazi symbols from their site in the US, an American judge told the French judge to get stuffed.

Americans may use deadly force to defend themselves and their property. A Brit who shoots a burglar in his home may land in prison. An American who does the same will probably be treated as a hero. That idea we share admits of no other conclusion; the man who kills a dangerous intruder in his home proves his dedication to that idea as strongly as anyone can without serving the nation in wartime.

Quote:

Some Europeans finally come to understand that idea--and most of those end up emigrating. (And they're welcome, too.) But it appears to be impossible to explain that idea to those who don't get it. I've spent the last two years writing about that idea on this site, doing my best to show how I view it. But there are no short words or phrases for that idea. Short words and phrases are labels, not explanations, and it does no good to use the word "blue" when talking to someone born blind, or the word "honor" when talking to a European.

And it is even more futile when talking to someone who is blind and doesn't believe that there's such a thing as sight, or a European who thinks that honor is foolish and unsophisticated.

To this post, Steve got a reply:

Quote:

Just want to thank you for a revelation I have had since I read your "captain's log" of 22/11/03, where you talked about the differences between Europa and US, and the fact of "feeling the idea" as the only condition to be American.

I live in Catalonia (that's, Barcelona). In other words, Spain. One of the countries that have more popular opposition to the War on Terror, and more popular support to the "No-War" (nearly 80% of the population) and antiglobalization movements, in spite of the spanish government's opinions. For example, my whole family has been against the war in Iraq, and is lightly but without any doubt antiamerican and antisemitist. And EVERY(with every I mean 100%) person that I know thinks the same in a stronger or weaker way.

That's not my case. I felt 11-S as something personal, while european press talked about it as "just an american's problem". I have supported the war in Afghanistan and Iraq since the beginning of the War on Terror, and I will support any wars that should come in the future if they help to erradicate the threat to western civilization. I consider myself clearly pro-semitist and pro-American. All that, in spite of having ALL the people around me against my ideas, and in spite of having lost several friends because of that. And I know that, if necessary, I would die defending US, Israel or any of their allies.

I just don't care about the criticism I receive every day, because I know the cause I defend is right.

Now the thing is, that all this time I have felt as if I was "in the wrong place". Being the only one with one idea, while virtually all the people around me (in fact, all the europeans) is against it, makes me feel as if I was not from there. But then, if not Catalan, Spanish or European, what am I???

I haven't had the complete answer to this question until today, when I read your article. Now I do know it.

I'm American. In the wrong place, far from home, but American.

And, sincerely, that's an honour.

PS: Sorry if there are spelling or grammar mistakes in this message, my english is still far from being OK.

And the reply:

Quote:

That's it. He gets it.

Honor comes from inside. An honorable man is true to himself and his own ideals, and he lives and acts according to those ideals no matter what anyone else says. It doesn't matter if that makes him respected or despised, for honor is not based on peer opinion.

And an honorable man will, if necessary, die for honor, die for what's right. There are issues worth dying for, and issues worth killing for. These things are not done lightly, but when they must be done an honorable man does not shy from his duty, even if he has to face it alone. It is more important what you stand for than who you stand with.

Honor is not and cannot be "multilateral". When you stand up for what's right, you may stand with many others, but each of those others stands there because of his honor. Each makes that decision for himself, and every one decides unilaterally.

If you compromise your honor in the name of "unity", or of "harmony" (or "alliance", or "multilateralism"), then you have lost your honor and have sold it cheaply. But if you are willing to do that, you never really had any honor to begin with.

Spelling and grammar have nothing to do with honor. A man's character has nothing to do with his education. But it shows clearly in how a man speaks to you, not in how he forms sentences, but in how he acts. "He looks you straight in the eye and tells you exactly what he thinks."

What a man says is more important than how he expresses himself. And what he does is more important than what he says. An honorable man shows his character by the things he does, and the sacrifices he's willing to make.

We are Americans because we believe in ourselves. We believe we can accomplish much, and we're damned well not going to let others prevent us from doing so, others who are rich in words but poor in actions, others who have no ideals, no honor.