Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Thank you. I'm with you all the way except on the violence part... Heh. I can't wait to enlist and serve. I don't want to fight in a war, but if my country needs me, I'll be there. BEFORE a draft. Out of my own free will.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

And I respect your view. :)

(and will pray for you in order to try to prevent you getting your @ss blown off).

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

BTW, completely forgot to pick up a point Timewarrior made earlier - the USA did not oppose the Falklands War. It was caught in the middle because it favoured Gen. Galtieri as a leader of Argentina as opposed to any of the Communist wannabe dictators waiting in the wings, and saw that a British victory over him would weaken his position. HOWEVER, and this is the crucial point, when it came to a fight, Ronald Reagan chose to back his ally Great Britain, and send supplies to the task force which frankly, kept the British Army in food and ammunition until it was safely in Port Stanley. It is doubtful things would have gone so smoothly without this US help, which remained secret (although widely suspected) until recently.

So, Britain marching in to Iraq with the USA is not all one-way 'poodling'. Foreign power invades British territory; Britain goes to war, USA helps us sort it out. Foreign power threatens world (and USA) security; USA goes to war, Britain helps them sort it out.

Like it or not, UK and USA are extraordinarily close allies and have been since WW2. Both countries are immeasurably better off because of this.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Good for you!

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I`m sure this will provoke your ire, but it wasn`t a deliberate attempt to blow up children per se, these two deaths are just used by the media to put an emotive spin on the issue. Otherwise why make such a big deal about the two children getting killed in comparison to the other victims who suffered? Hence your question is flawed to begin with.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Well at least you won`t have to worry too much about being attacked by the enemy, your own forces will provide enough of a threat to your life in that respect.

Seriously though, I think that anyone who voluntarily joins the armed forces these days needs their head examined. When I walk past the Army recruitment office in town and see young men in there I really feel like sticking my head in the door and telling them not to do it.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

And they will most likely pity you.

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Good for them, but at least I won`t be participating in illegal military actions.

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It is so funny how you call it "illegal," as if there is some law regarding war.

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No-one has answered my question yet.....:rolleyes:

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It doesn't provoke my ire, but it does demonstrate that you're very reluctant to answer the question. You've tried ignoring it and misunderstanding it, and now you're trying to redefine it.

The media's agenda in reporting the 'human angle' of this event is not at issue here. The facts are:

1. The IRA, in pursuit of its aim of a united Ireland, planted a bomb in Warrington town centre.
2. 30 years of experience meant they were fully aware of the serious risk of loss of life to men, women and children.
3. In any court in the civilised world, such reckless action would rightly be enough to prove the charge of murder.
4. Murder is defined as the deliberate (or malicious) and unlawful killing of another human being.
5. Our society (generally) values children highly, as they represent innocence and hope for the future. Not because they make heart-rending news copy.

The question is not flawed. Your silly attempts to avoid answering it are flawed.

I'll ask you again, and I suggest that unless you post otherwise, it is reasonable for me to conclude that you believe blowing up children was the correct course of action for the IRA to take.

So: In your opinion, is deliberately blowing up children the correct way to achieve a united Ireland?

Over to you.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

OK. I stand corrected.

But, do not call me dumb. That is insulting.

You still haven't answered my question: Who financed Saddam?

That's fair enough. Accidents do happen. I don't call the kind of "soldiers" that target civillians, rape & pillage soldiers. I call them thugs. Americans don't do this (rape & pillage I mean).
I have to admit, unless they are using the general public as a human shield, they wouldn't put military facilities in the middle of populated areas. We don't. The US & Canada don't. In fact, I don't think any civilised country does.

Now, just in case this isn't clear from my posts. I am not anti-American, and I do think it was right to remove Saddam (I actually think we should have done it in Gulf War 1). The only stupid thing (IMO) that both George Bush and Tony Blair did was announce that Saddam had WMDs before they had firm evidence. Having said that, I don't think we would have gone to war if they hadn't said that.

I also believe that Saddam did have (and possibly still has) WMDs, although I would be very surprised if they are anywhere near Iraq.

I have also found the few Americans I have met to be charming and extremely friendly.

The only thing I don't like is the "We are better than you attitude", but I don't like that attitude wherever it comes from. As I said in my earlier post, I don't think that attitude is patriotic, just arrogant.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

To be honest, I don`t give a damn what conclusions you come to, but I simply refuse to answer a leading question that I believe is flawed in the first instance. Interpret that how you wish, it is of little concern to me as I do not need my beliefs and opinions validated by others.

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I call it a diabolical act of terriorism perpatrated by people who feel they have been driven to such measures or conditioned to do so.

Oh and add to my list of reasons for opinion:
The us seek immunity from warcrimes. If no crimes are commited why do they need immunity

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Dr Wadd. The IRA planted a bomb in a shopping centre. They have also planted a bomb in one of the big department stores (Harrods I believe) at Christmas. Are you seriously suggesting they were not trying to kill civillians? And, of course, there are bound to be a few kids around.

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I don't know whether I am saddened or sickened by this. What I am sure of is that your reputation, as far as I'm concerned, should not be green. :(

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I didn`t say the weren`t trying to target civilians. But I don`t like the way the stories are played to highlight the deaths of children in order to manipulate the sympathies of the public. That amounts to little more than propaganda.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

What !!! .. You don't think the IRA were trying to manipulate the fears of the British public by planting bombs where children were likely to be killed ????????

That amounts to little more than terrorism in the extreme !!

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Really, I don't think this requires any 'media manipulation' at all in order to make any right-thinking individual feel sick to the core.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

True, the Media do tend to play up the death of Children. Children do seem to be more important to this society than adults.

However, if the IRA bombs either a shopping centre or a major department store (especially at Christmas), it is a fair bet they were aiming to hurt some kids, is it not?

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Bear in mind I'm only trying to understand the terrorist mind, not agree with him. But I don't think they said 'hey let's go blow up children'. The idea is to get attention, what better than to aim a populated area in a busy period. I don't think children in particular had any part in their thinking.

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This is drawing away from the topic at question which is anti-american views.

No one is doubting that acts of terroism involving bombs in public places will cause loss of life indiscriminatly and those involved should be hung. Maybe these views warrant a thread on thier own to be discussed.

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I'm confused by this response

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there are the geneva conventions.

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yes and as the IRA considered it a war then isnt that a war crime to target civilians - geneva convention 4.

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I was rather hoping drwadd would answer that one but he seems to be ignoring it....
Here's a thought: If I was cut up on a road by another car and insulted by the other driver even though it was his fault, would it be reasonable for me to go round to his place and kill his dog and put a brick through his window?
Not really....so why is it deemed reasonable by some members of this forum that terorists fly planes into buildings because they are pi**ed off with the USA?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I don't deem it reasonable I deem it to have a reason - valid or not it's there.

Me and Dr. Wadd seem to be the only people who see things in shades of grey rather than Black and white. It is obvious that to some people it seems reasonable because it actually happened - ie by the people who saw reason. Reason is relative, one person's is different from the others. I do not think that terriorists are the Devil incarnate that people are making them out to be, they are severly misguided people

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

On the contrary I think it's exactly on-topic HM. I think the view that the USA 'had it coming' with regards to the events of 9/11 is pretty blatant anti-Americanism, and part of the 'agenda' of some people in this thread has been to hide that by attempting to justify (or at least explain away) the actions of the terrorists.

In trying to pin down some of the logical consequences of such a line of argument we have strayed into terrorism more generally, and other specific examples of it - the IRA, for instance - but always with one eye on the important question: What is really behind the anti-war, anti-America and anti-Bush sentiments being expressed?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Well put!
I do see things in shades of grey. I just happen to think that 9/11 is a black and white situation.
Another thing thats winding me up here is that terrorists actions are being examined in a 'shades of grey' way here but the USA is being given the 'black or white' treatment.

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Some of us simply aren`t sitting on the forum 24/7.

I don`t think you'll find anyone has said it was reasonable, merely that it was undertandable why someone would do it.

As Downquark pointed out, you can't look at the world in absolutes, there is no black & white, it is all shades of grey. You can`t look at an event without examining the wider context behind the event. The inability to see events from someone else's point of view is symptomatic of the arrogant attitude of some that we are somehow the good guys and they are the evil enemy. It's all cause and effect, and these are merely the effects of the actions of the west. It is time that people started examining the attitudes of the west in the context of the world as a whole.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

the Geneva convention does not apply unless there is a formal declaration of war i belive

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can u explain the deliberate shelling by Israel of a UN base in Lebanon killing scores of civilians

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Nothing wrong with examening the wider context behind events. I think that if you are talking about cause and effect then the effect was out of all proportion to the cause (at least in the 9/11 and even Bali bomb cases)
No ammount of apologism can change the fact that the acts carried out by those terrorists were obcsene and there can be no excuse for them. There are no shades of gray in an act like that.



*edit*
So you see 9/11 as 'understandable'?
Ok, does anyone here know exactly why they did it?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

There are no shades of gray in an act like that.

Amen. Let us say that again: There are no shades of gray in an act like that.

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If I nudge my glass it will fall off the table, break and stain the carpet, much much more than my little nudge. No body said that cause and affect had to be equal.

Whoose fault is the mess?

No not at all but people don't kill themselves likely. I can't for the life of me figure out football hulagism's motives, but they are there.

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The United States does not violate the Geneva Conventions when waging war. The people you don't want to critisize, such as Saddam and Mugabe, does violate the Geneva Conventions. Regardless, I doubt that was what waddy was referring to.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

But with this 'war' on terror, they keep the prisioners of the 'war on terror' in terrible conditions.

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im sure that breaks many conventions human rights ?

as i have read through this thread i agree with some of dr wadd's comments that the US had it coming...

ignorance and cockeyness will only give you negativity every country has it positives and negatives its just the US does not obey international law

it claimed saddam had weapons of mass destruction id like to ask where are they ?

oh and jerrek not every muslim is anti US or a terrorist :rolleyes:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

how do u know, what conditions are they being kept in?

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the news reports they show pictures........

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Leaving aside the issue of Guantanamo Bay which has already been mentioned, the USA bombed neutral countries during the Vietnam war. That is a war crime. Not to mention the attack recently within the borders of Syria.

I don`t see the USA storming in to help the oppressed people of Zimbabwe, but they don`t any resources you want to plunder. If the US government is so concerned about protecting the rights of oppressed peoples around the world, why did Dick Cheney vote *against* a motion codemning the house-arrest of Nelson Mandela?

Back on the topic of Bush, I suppose it's no suprise that he is attempting to stifle freedom of speech within the UK, he is already doing that in his own country.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/Wo..._031112-1.html

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Really. Terrible conditions. My idea of living in terrible conditions does not include living in a tent and given food and water every day, and allowed in the sun, on an island in the Caribbean.

My idea of terrible conditions is a Saudi jail under ground, locked away never to see daylight, not getting adequate water and food, no toilets, and perhaps the occasional rape or two.

Now let us see. Vietnam war. That would be a war started by liberal Democrats. Which countries are these that you speak of?

Which attack? Are you referring to the Israeli one?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? What about Bosnia? There wasn't any resources either...

Mandela is a terrorist and a communist. He should have been executed when he was arrested for the murder of innocent civilians. He and his cronies planted bombs and killed many people.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

yep my point exactly, u know nothing of how the prisoners are being treated

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I can understand Patriotism & loyalty and how people can hold strong views for & against other countries & causes.

I think I can understand how a "crime of passion" can result in one person taking the life of another - one on one, anyway.

What I can't understand is how anyone, could cold bloodedly, plan to murder & maim other people in order to to express their views - or even why they would think it could achieve their aims.

You would have thought that the sheer horror of atrocities like 9/11, Bali & what the IRA did to Manchester, would make these people think again about their strategy - what kind of person could do something like that & then start thinking about what to do next?

No pro/anti cause is worth the appalling carnage of these acts of violence, how the people who perpetrate them ever get support for what they do is beyond me?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

:confused:
:rolleyes:

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my point was that all we know is being showed by a bias media who have a vested interest in make the pictures etc show what they want

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Or being illegally detained, without legal representation, without being charged, for an indefinite amount of time. Being deprived access to your family. These are not terrible conditions? They are in the sun, yes, but being kept in the beating sun constantly without any proper protection isn`t exactly a walk in the park you know.

Laos might well have something to complain about.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12165

Cambodia didn`t fare too well either.

No, I`m referring to this one,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3032536.stm

or perhaps you'd like to try this later incident.

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au...55E401,00.html

If you are going to contribute to this thread you may wish to keep up with current affairs, and not rely on the stream of propaganda that the Whitehouse keeps pushing down your throat. Or is it simply more convenient for you to forget about the atrocities of the USA?

I seem to recall in an earlier post someone mentioning that you speak Afrikaans and that you spent some period of time in South Africa. Given that you were raised in a country where racism was the national pastime I`m really not surpised by this attitude.

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And what political bias would the Red Cross have? They have roundly codemned the situation at Guantanamo Bay. There are sources of information above and beyond the news media.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

everybody is biased in some way not necessarily politically even the red cross, what claims have they made?

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Illegal under what law?

I couldn't care less. They are terrorists.

No my dear boy, it is not. You don't know the meaning of terrible living conditions.

Oh, they're not dying, and they have tents and lots of water as far as I know. It is funny though, how you are attacking Americans for "terrible" living conditions, but the Chinese's use of thumb cuffs and how they just make people disappear for disagreeing with the government escapes your attention. Yep. Gotta wonder where your loyalties lie.

What atrocities exactly?

What the **** does that have to do with anything? I don't know what makes you so dumb but it really works. Am I now a racist because I speak Afrikaans?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

You may have noticed I posted some links for you to click on. You obviously didn`t bother, probably too scared to be shocked out of your brainwashed view of the world.


No, I said you grew up in a country of racists, so I didn`t find you attitude surprising. I didn`t actually call *you* a racist, you chose to interpret the statement that way, perhaps I touched upon a raw nerve?

I`ve seen some of the other posts you have contributed to both this thread and others (I must admit, your anti-BBC rhetoric is alway good for having a laugh at the ill-informed), but in my opinion the word "dumb" really doesn`t start to describe the very low level of intelligence that I feel you must have.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3179858.stm

The story is from the BBC, I wonder how soon until Jerrek claims it is a lie?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, I said you grew up in a country of racists
I did? You call spending ages 0 to 2 growing up? What the ****? Are you mad?

I didn`t actually call *you* a racist, you chose to interpret the statement that way, perhaps I touched upon a raw nerve?
Oh bull****. I don't give a **** what you meant. What you implied and what 99% of the people here perceive is what counts, and I'm sure everyone perceived what I did.

You may have noticed I posted some links for you to click on. You obviously didn`t bother, probably too scared to be shocked out of your brainwashed view of the world.
I clicked, but I saw no atrocities. Maybe some accidents, but definitely no atrocities.

but in my opinion the word "dumb" really doesn`t start to describe the very low level of intelligence that I feel you must have.
Ah yes, I build my opinions on common sense, not the so-called "intelligence" you are supposed to have. I wasn't the one that justified 9/11. I wasn't the one that said there is no difference between civilian targets and military targets. I wasn't the one that made excuses for the IRA. I wasn't the one that said Americans deserved 9/11. You keep your "intelligence."


Now the fact that the Red Cross does not blast China, or Saddam, or Mugabe means that they support what is going on there and being such a great humanitarian, Mugabe is good person, right?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

There's another 'we aren't as bad as someone else so be grateful'.

In that case, communist China is not as bad as nazi germany so I forgive them of all crimes.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

that still says nothing of their condition Britain has held people like this on many occasions

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

So you support communist China now and their atrocities?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Creating a moral vacuum in which to study different approaches to the world is perfectly valid, but attempting to live in that vacuum is most certainly not IMO. Some of the comments that have been posted in this thread today go way beyond trying to understand the terrorist mind. They smack of apologetics, which I find distasteful in the extreme.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

and there's the rub - I hope I conveyed my support for the demise of terrorism, in my posts.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

You call the bombing of Laos an "accident"? You really have had your view of the world twisted by propaganda.

I see you now resorted to swearing, even if you have censored the words. I think that amply demonstrates the level of intelligence and reasoning you are bringing to the table. Your attitude amuses me, but I now consider any attempt to engage you in debate to be an utter waste of my time.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Good answer, but gravity has no choice in the matter. The terrorists had a choice, they chose to murder innocent people

Neither can I but we deplore their actions, we don't try to apologise for them.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Those are not terrible conditions, do they make them eat sh*t? do they p*ss on them? do they torture them? Try being an Iraqi captive!

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Yes he does, he points out that the way in which the prisoners are being treated in a behavioural sense is causing them mental ill health. That is very much part of the condition.

Just because the British have behaved in such a manner before doesn`t absolve the USA of any responsibility or guilt. And before you ask, I also have a pretty dim view of the way that the British have approached the rest of the world in the past.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I dunno m8, ask some of the apologists on this forum:mis:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

You what??? That is some presumption!

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The link you supplied about the red cross critisising 'conditions' at Guantanamo bay actually said:
No mention of 'conditions' there, just the legal process.....

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I agree. Keep chipping away m8, maby it will penetrate someday....

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

My thoughts exactly!

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It also happened to mention

"The open-endedness of the situation and its impact on the mental health of the population has become a major problem," he told the New York Times.

As I pointed out earlier, their mental health is part of their condition, and it reflects the current situation within the camp.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Ok lets call it deliberate......listen closely children.....because you have been wrong in the past, it means you can never ever be right ever again:rolleyes:

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Oh poor diddums, they are terrorists(or at the very least they left their home countries to fight in a war, sometimes against soldiers of their own nationality-which is treason). I am sure they can deal with the stress of being held in humane conditions with medical care and a complete absence of torture.
....oh my bleeding heart.....:rolleyes:

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Actually, even the US administration doesn`t consider them to be terrorists. To do so would involve charging them with a crime, something that the Whitehouse doesn`t seem to be too keen on doing right now. Not all of those captured came from other countries, a good many of them were captured while defending their own country from a US led invasion.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

So your point is?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I AM NOT APPOLOGISING FOR THE TERRIORISTS. As I have said they have a reason to hate the US, whether the reason is valid depends on the point of view. The point is the US media are protraying them as pure evil with no motive. And the US refuses to accept reasons why they might be disliked.

Jerrek is prime example: instead of saying 'these are unfortunate incidents, I for one regret them', he just pumps out excuse after excuse. Myself and Doctor Wadd have provided many reasons to dislike America, and instead of excepting them you just counter argument on and on. Whether our reasons can be proven wrong or correct is immaterial, the existance of all these reasons is reason to dislike the USA, where there's no smoke there is no fire.

Granted there will always be some reasons but the ones mentioned are far too many in my opinion.

The constant argument that prisoners would have been worse off in an iraqi prison is again immaturial, America preaches justice and freedom for all (isn't this a reason for liberating iraq) yet when they can take advantage of a loop hole to punish people they don't like they do it. Where is the justice in holding people with no repusentation or rights, some people there may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but of course this might never be known. Also the issue that since they are not holding prisoners of war, they are holding foriegn citezens who have committed no crime in the US, the people's own country should be disiplinning them. I call it hipocracy.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

My point is that you are factually incorrect when you call them terrorists.

Taking the case of those who were actually from Afghanistan, fighting against a force that was invading their country, do you honestly believe it is fair to take them away from their country and detain them for an indefinite amount of time without being charged or legal representation?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

But some, if not all of them are terrorists.
As for legal representation, this is war. Did you see what happened to the CIA men in afghanistan (as they got their throats cut) where was their legal representation. Wher was the legal representation of the 9/11 victims, the Bali victims?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Can`t have it both ways I`m afraid, if you are going to argue that this is a war then they have to be classified as prisoners of war.

Covert agents get killed all the time, it is the nature of the job and a risk they accept. If, as you claim, this is a war, then they are casualties of war, nothing more.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

[holds help in pained expression] If this is a war they are prisoners of war and should be treated accordinally, if it is not a war they are citizens and should be treated accordingally. How can we critices people's disobediance of international law if we do it ourselves. We should 'set the good example' - treating the people nicely until trial isn't going to cause anymore deaths.

The whole 'innocent unitl proven guilty' rule applies here. When iraq does these things the USA is the first to cry 'foul'

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I'd improve on the spelling (sorry DQ ;)), but I couldn't agree more. I've typed three replies to this thread tonight, but opted to not post them thinking they will only be met with 'you'd be worse off in an Iraqi jail' and similar one-liners.

As far as I'm concerned: The US is in breach of the Geneva Convention with their treatment of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners when it comes to legal matters. I.e: they are not charged, can be detained indefinitely, and if it comes to trial, they have no right to appeal.

If the US are going to lecture the world on human rights, they want to set that straight. And if Human rights really is an issue, why is there the soft approach to Burma, Laos, and a few others.

Note to Dubya: Burma has oil, rubies, and a lot of heroine goes through it. Rumour has it that the government profits from the heroine.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

So your beef is with howthe US media is portraying them???!

So disliking a country is enough reason to go and do 9/11? Get real!
You can preach justice and freedom for all and still want to stay alive yourself.
If the countries judicial process is not up to the job then the US has to step in.
Having said all that, I do feel that Guantanamo bay is not the best way for the US to do things. It is however a damn sight better than the living conditions that US soldiers would get if the tables were turned.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I'm reminded of a WW2 film here. One of the Brits suggests roughing one of the German prisoners up a bit, and the officer replies: Let's not. Isn't that what this war is about?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

and the 9/11 and Bali victims....?

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I like it!:rofl:

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So the guantanamo bay prisoners are lucky to be alive then.....they are practically living in the lap of luxury!

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

But they are treating them nicely. They are alive and have medical care and are not tortured. They are probably more comfortable than they were when they were fighting!

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I'm off to bed. Night all!:)

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Yes, but this is not the entire 'beef'. If you think that the only reason for doing bad things is because 'they are evil' then naturally you won't think anymore of it. this is the problem the US has.



I AM NOT SAYING THE ACT WAS JUSTIFIED I'M SAYING THEY THOUGHT IT WAS JUSTIFIED. The terrorists sacrified their lives for this cause, they obviously believed in it - we must understand why. Would you blow yourself up over a disliking someone?
I'm refusing to answer any of these type of arguements because it can amount to anything. Such as 'the US should be grateful the planes didn't hit a nuclear power plant' 'You should be grateful because at least David Blunket is trying to stop immagrants' - Why don't we just accept everything in the world? - lets face it - it could be a lot worse

I'm going to bed now as my head can't take more of this

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

correct but it depends what you class as a formal declaration - the point is the IRA always 'considered' themselves at war therefore that is one side making a formal declaration.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

It's not funny. Not to the people in Burma anyway...

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I can vouch for the suffering of the Burma people at the hands of the (illegal) military rulers. I dont know about oil but I do know they profit a lot from tourism.

you cant call the people detained at guat. bay terrorists unless you believe in guilty until proven innocent. that last thing I heard about that place is that the yanks dont plan to put any to trial as they realise that the whole thing is a PR cockup.

as for the US having it coming... well that doesnt justify/excuse violence.

if other countries or people have been hard done by the US then fair enough if the US experiences non violent protest such as a demonstations - you can excuse that by saying 'they had it coming' but to suggest that the killing of thousands of civilians is because "they had it coming" is disgraceful.

certainly the US 'has it coming' in terms of a backlash for it's treatment of the Guat bay 'detainees' plus it's selfish environmental policy but only in terms of non violent expression - e.g. trade wars, diplomatic issues, demonstrations...

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

you cant trust any media these days so you have to look for info somewhere

it works both ways

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I see where you are coming from and I agree completely with the above.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

I don't think choice has a big part in it. If you take the millions of muslims who are 'mifted' at the US it only took a handful of insane ones to pull off the 9 11 attack - it's probability, sooner or later something bad would happen.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Exactly! It's the 'handful of insane ones' that I'm on about- they are evil, normal people don't do things like that.
I completely agree that the US/UK etc need to examine why they are hated by vast swathes of the worlds population and try to remedy matters but at the same time the suicidal lunatics need to be caged or exterminated like the mad dogs that they are.
I may be wrong here but I read somewhere that part of the problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that Islam is a relatively new religion compared to Cristianity and they are about 600 years behind where Cristianity is now. Think back to what Cristians were doing 600 years ago and you can see why they seem to have such a big/active 'lunatic fringe'

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

The problem is the qua'ran doesn't leave much room for interpretation. The Bible is full of metaphoric lessions that Jesus taught, you can argue they mean almost anything. The qua'ran is more like a guide book, it tells people how to live and even mentions punishments for criminal (ie. cutting their hands off). This is why Muslim fundamentalists are many and dangerous.
Yes, but it must be remembered that they were only reacting or over-reacting to the hate already there.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Islam never teaches you to harm anyone well the quran does not,the only exception i know of is if someone is harming your religion, but the muslim extremists feed young people's minds with false hope and promises, they only have themsleves to blame.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

In most countries, it is illegal to hold people prisoner without charge or adequate legal representation. The Patriot Act allows the US Government to do this with certain limitations. So, it is not illegal in America. Still wrong, but not illegal.

In some of the cases of Guantanamo Bay things are not so clear cut.

What the Chinese do to their own people is terrible, and should be stopped. However, this thread is about anti-americanism.

No, but you have referred to all muslims as terrorists. That could be construed as racist.

Oh, and for an interesting read on the patriot act, go to http://web.amnesty.org/web/wire.nsf/...003/Guantanamo

But, because Amnesty don't agree with the propaganda coming from the US Government, you'll probably dismiss them as liberals..

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

AFAIK it is illegal in the US. This is why the prisoners are held at Guantanamo Bay, which is Cuban Soil, so US laws don't apply. If the US were to keep the prisoners on US soil, it would be illegal.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

Fair enough. Actually that law also spefically excludes US nationals, so it is racist as well.

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

No, but you have referred to all muslims as terrorists. That could be construed as racist.
HOW? Muslims are not a race. It is a religion. How can that possibly be racist??

Actually that law also spefically excludes US nationals, so it is racist as well.
And that is bad how exactly?

Re: anti americanism fashionable
 

OK, so you are prejudiced against a religion.

As to the Patriot act being racist. That is bad simply because it assumes that US Nationals cannot be terrorists. Didn't one of the people involved in 9/11 have a US Nationality? If that is the case the law would not have applied to him.