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Xaccers, do *YOU* have any *PROOF* of these accusations? That the Mirror really would "rather have kept Saddam in power"? That they deliberately published them "to damage the work we are doing to rebuild Iraq and relations in the middle east"?

Whatever my or your opinions may be of the Mirror as a news paper, for you to sling around accusations like this without anything to back them up is no better than them publishing the pictures without corroboration.

Oh, and please don't try to claim these are "opinions", because you, like they, are stating them as *FACTS*.

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Only because they want to, we in this country love to believe negative news people will always believe something bad about people or government but never anything good.

If its bad its the truth

if its good it must be a lie/cover up according to the mind set of those reader

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and undermine everything they do, then again the mirror and mail do that anyway

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I've now read the Mirror, and i'm unconvinced that the pictures are genuine.

Firstly, the Mirror counters claims about floppy hats, missing badges, and incorrectly laced boots by publishing pictures of floppy hats, missing badges and incorrectly laced boots, and saying: "There you are. We were telling the truth". But there are no independent good quality reference sources quoted. There aren't even any sources of any kind. Now you don't have to be a genius to think if you want pictures to prove a point, you might want to source them. For all I know they could have Googled "british soldier", and published the first one with floppy hats. Half the pictures might not have been taken in the middle east, by the look of them.

They quote 2 soldiers anonymously as explaining away the pictures. But when they get to the tough questions, they just go: "I don't know", or "I can't explain that".

The one (and only one) point that makes sense is the clean gun. I know the SA-80s are standard issue, but are extremely fragile, especially in dusty/desert environments. The guns would have to be stripped and cleaned down more or less every day. Certainly every couple of days, even if it been stored indoors. So the gun would of been relatively clean, but i'm still not totally convinced because there still would of been scratches, knocks, etc.

I probably shouldn't get into this again (not least because it is off topic), but I believe, war for oil, or weapons of mass destruction, every anti-war protester was a vote for Saddam to keep him in power. Noone has every proposed a sensible way of getting rid of Saddam without force, especially after removing sanctions. I always thought it should of been the other way around. I would have thought the 'bleeding heart' liberals (that are supposed to care for every poor, down-trodden, and abused person around the world), would have been supporting the war, and the 'money hungry' conservatives would have been protesting such an expensive move that didn't directly benefit ourselves. Funny how things work out.

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I supported the war for those reasons!

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Good points punky

also, isn't the gun of the wrong type too ? ... a type I where'as the SA80's issued are type II's ... something like that anyway.

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Wrong guns and wrong truck or something

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Its the inside thats the most important part of the gun being clean. They are trained to take this weapon apart in around 2 1/2 minutes. Cleaning the inside doesn't take that long either. I dont think it matters too much about the outside of the weapon

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yeah well, its just typical and was always going to happen.

Tough **** really, I doubt the Iraqis expected any better after the appalling treatment of our prisoners in 1991.
Theres not a lot anyone can do about the USA and its often out of control soldiers etc.

As for the generalisations......They voted the government in to speak for them (this is called Democracy), technically the governments actions can and should be classed as actions by all americans. Especially if it gets that ****ing idiot out of the whitehouse.

Whilst I understand the outcry about the treatment, humiliation isnt exactly a bloodthirsty crime is it? come on as kids we all created humiliation for others at somepoint. Torture? well lets talk about torture and specifically the torture the Iraqis inflicted on the coalition forces captured back in 1991. End of ****ing story, what goes around comes around, the Americans rightly or wrongly are using it as payback.

You cant break every rule of the geneva convention and then expect it to work for you, it simply wont happen. I also challange anyone to treat with kindness someone that not so long ago may have been trying to kill you, or may have killed some of your friends and hung their carved up bodies from a bridge.

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Who cares about the gun, he was supposedly beaten for eight hours beforehand and yet theres not a scratch on him AND his T-Shirt is good enough for a Daz commercial.

The mirror is covering its ass, at least with these photos.

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That was one of the points the soldiers couldn't explain. They said they were given MkIIs, but said that the didn't mean someone wasn't gvien a MkI. Doesn't really explain a lot either way.


While the firing mechanism and inside barrel are the only bits that need to be clean, automatically, through habit (and just for pride really), they clean the outside and polish it up. But I' personally still expect to see scratches, knocks, etc. Those don't really polish out.

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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...tos/index.html


Why not. They should know why an old Mk1 SA80 just happened to be in the picture for starters.

Yep its like someone here having an old English football shirt from 1988. Its not going to look new after all this time is it


I think the Mirror should apologise to the QLR regiment and British public for this all mighty ****-up

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How about the editor stating on TV that we were wrong to go to war to oust saddam? That he believed we should not have ousted the leader of another country? That his paper would do all that it could to prove our government shouldn't have done it?
And do you honestly believe that when they were given these images, the damage publishing them would do never crossed their minds? They could have reported that they had been passed images but had done the sensible thing in giving them to the army to investigate.

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:rofl:

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That's a good point about the t-shirt Defiant.

I've just done a quick look up on the SA-80-A1, and apparently the A1 was swapped for the A2 in 2001. Now given how bad the A1 was and the fact it is 3 years later, I thought it would be unlikely the A1 turned up in combat. But then again, in combat, with resources stretched, I don't it is that far thinking to believe that an A1 might get used eventually. This is why we need an independent person from the Armed Forces, to tell us how it is out there, one way or other.

Xaccers: The Mirror aside, how about Galloway? I mean he managed to get so far up Saddam's sphincter, he was able to remove Saddam's fillings. Rumsfeld might well have been forced to go there and be nice to him, some 20 years ago, but Galloway is in another league entirely. He always praised Saddam, and always wanted him to remain in power. He was never shy about saying it in public either. Again, I would of thought he would be been an unlikely role model for bleeding heart liberals.

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Just E-mailed the Mirror with this...

Hello,
I wish to express my disgust at the publishing of these pictures by your paper without any sort of proof about the authenticity of them to begin with. I would suggest that in the future you seriously consider the consequences of your actions, before going ahead with further stories regarding this subject. If you had unequivocal proof of the authenticity of the subject matter I would have given you full backing regarding their release, however all we have is some very suspicious photos and a couple of pictures of some blurred soldiers faces who tell us they are real but provide no evidence.

Why donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t you do release the identities of these people, it is now as you so commonly put it when it suits you, †œin the interest of the general publicââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�.

By publishing these photographs you have already made a very tough job even harder for our soldiers in Iraq irrespective about your view on whether the war was right or wrong, and I hope that the next time an allied soldier gets taken hostage they are not treated unfairly due to a direct result of these picture being published with no proof. There are real people out there, putting their lives on the line every day with families back here †“ you would do well to remember that before jumping on the bandwagon to cash in next time.

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I agree, Galloway really let down the tone of the anti-war people. As did the mirror i dont now why they used those as resources for their campaign! Again I believe a lot of people just wanted to 1) Protest against something 2) Wanted to appear as a moral person 3) Jumping on the bandwagon.

All these people really let down the people who did have real concerns. Those real anti-war people although I disagree with them I respected there views. Shame that the fact that there were so many people who did not return the favor usually those posers annoyed me.

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I dount that will cut a lot of ice with them :(

They will look at sales figures to decide whats right. What would be a lot more damaging is public attacks. Newspapers care about public views

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True - but at least im trying to do something.

Im more interested to see if i get a reply.

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Instead how about re-wording it as a non-direct letter and sending it to the other papers for their letter section? Especially the sun, times, independent, mail, and telegraph

Change it depending on the papers, e.g use 'our boys' for the sun while the British army for the rest

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theblueraja: It is good you are actually doing something about it.

I've just read the Sun today, it is quite interesting. Floppy hats, badges, guns and vans aside, 2 of the photos the soldiers have no watches on. Now empty supply belts, etc, I can understand, but no watch? A soldier would remove his watch to beat up someone, then put it back on? There is no way an active soldier could be out there without a watch (and they have standard issue ones don't they?)

Also, I thought it was a bit weird the pictures aren't in colour, but put it down to the Mirror's choice of ink because of economy, etc. But apparently the source pictures were in Black & White too. Now if the pictures were taken by digital camera (which they were supposed to have been, as that is what soldiers have out there), surely they would of been taken in colour. An expert has said the absense of colour in his mind, tries to mask the discrepancies in the gun picture. In the urination picture, the hess bag is weaved to allow light through (and the prisoner to see out, which defeats the object of putting a hood on in the first place), and he said the urine was absorbed too quickly into the bag (not totally conclusive IMO, there could of been 2 people urinating), and the shadows are all wrong.

In the last few days, the list of discrepancies seems to be growing quite big, with not a lot being properly debunked.

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The BBC has done this to make it clear, I have taken it out of quote marks so :

1. Claim: Sources close to Queen's Lancashire regiment believe the rifle is a SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq. The rifle would have had a carrying sling attached. Some experts have said they believe it's a replica.

Rebuttal: Soldier A told the Mirror: "I was carrying an SA80-A2. I think the one in the picture is that model as well. I can't explain why it may not be. Some soldiers wore rifle slings, many others didn't."

2. Claim: The condition of the weapon is "pristine", whereas it would be scuffed and dirty if it had seen action. It also has no cover over the barrel and no identification number on the butt.

Rebuttal: Soldier A said: "We cleaned our rifles all the time. It could have been cleaned that afternoon."

3. Claim: The army doesn't use potato sacks as hoods, but dark room curtains. The hood was too clean and "ironed" for something that would have been crumpled up in someone's pockets.

Rebuttal: Soldier A told Monday's Mirror: "I can't answer that. That was the hood the man had on." The paper claims to have seen another picture of a different arrested Iraqi, in which the 'sandbag' hood appears to be identical.

4. Claim: "Why would the soldier be wearing webbing that is undone? Normally soldiers are very particular about that," said former commander Colonel Bob Stewart. Experts have also said it is unusual for the pouches not to be full.

Rebuttal: "On raids, kit wasn't the issue. We had also returned to our compound, the soldier might have removed stuff," soldier A told the Mirror.

5. Claim: The stream of urine does not look authentic. Among the claims are that shadows have been added to the drops of urine, that the wet patch on the hood is fake, and that the droplets are coming from a bottle of water.

Rebuttal: None provided.

6. Claim: The wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq. Some have also said it is too clean.

Rebuttal: Soldier A told the Mirror: "It was a four ton truck, I'm not sure what make. We always used that sort of truck when we were on raids as did other units."

On the cleanliness claim he said: "That's the way it was."

7. Claim: Col Stewart questioned threw doubt on the captive's "slightly silky" football shirt, bearing an Iraqi flag. "Is that the sort of shirt that a captive might be wearing?" he said. Other analysts have said the shirt would be out of place in the Shia area of Basra.


Rebuttal: "We saw dozens of Iraqis wearing exactly those t-shirts," soldier B told the Mirror.

8. Claim: Soldiers tie laces in a parallel, rather than criss-cross, fashion.

Rebuttal: The Mirror pictures soldier with boots laced criss-cross. Soldier A said: "I think people lace the boots the way they are most comfortable with."

9. Claim: Soldiers operating in this area wouldn't tuck their trousers into their boots, but would leave them outside with an elasticated bottom to stop sand getting in.


Rebuttal: None provided.

10. Claim: The shirt would be sweaty, dirty and dishevelled after alleged beatings. There are no bruises or marks on the captured man.

Rebuttal: Soldier A told the Mirror: "The man was wearing some sort of Arab dress over his t-shirt and it was ripped off during his arrest."

11. Claim: Regiment sources say soldiers wear berets or hard hats, not floppy hats.

Rebuttal: Soldier B said: "We wore floppy hats all the time. A beret was too hot, helmets cumbersome."

12. Claim: Experts have questioned the sharp quality of the photos - former Guardian picture editor Eamonn McCabe compares them with the fuzzy, badly composed pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, published last week. The Mirror's pictures are "all too clinical" to be trusted, he said.

Rebuttal: None provided

13. Claim: The captive's posture does not suggest he is being tortured. The body would be curled up, legs pulled into the foetal position. "It is not the posture of someone who has suffered pain," said Col Stewart.

Rebuttal: Soldier A said: "That's how he was. His arms were tied behind him."

14. Claim: Divisional markings should have been visible under the flag on the soldier's left sleeve.

Rebuttal: The Mirror pictures two other soldiers serving in Iraq, also with no divisional markings on their sleeves. Soldier A told the paper: "We weren't going around sewing badges on."

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So what? That doesn't answer my question.

These are all things that *I* have also said, but that *STILL* doesn't mean that I wanted to keep Saddam in Power etc etc, only that I agree with him that what we did was *wrong* and should not have been done in that way!!

All of these are points I have made time and again in threads in these forums.

But, again, that's not what I asked. You stated that it was done "deliberately to damage the work we are doing to rebuild Iraq and relations in the middle east", which is another matter entirely.

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You really think it wasn't. Doesn't look to me that they have checked this out much !

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And if he'd spent any time in Iraq with a watch on, there would be a noticable "tan mark" where the watch should have been...

I don't know of any digtal camera that takes B&W pictures by default. There are some that can be deliberately set to do so, but there is no legitimate reason that I can think of why anyone would do so with pictures like these.

It is, of course, possible that the pictures have been grey-scaled after the event, but again, I can see no reason why someone would do so.

Speaking as a photographer, the pictures immediately struck me as almost definitely having been staged. If you look at a posed photo and a candid pic even if you don't know what is wrong, you get a feel for whether someone is standing in a certain way because that's the way they happen to be standing and someone who has been told "stand like this".

Unless they're an experienced model who has practiced how to pose, the image will look artificial, and these pics certainly looked like that.

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I think what they did was stupid, I think they should have checked out their sources more carefully, I think they've been conned like this before (ISTR it being the Mirror who was conned by a fake "home video" of Diana and James Hewitt), I also think they couldn't resist "getting the scoop".

However I don't think it was "done deliberately to damage the work we are doing to rebuild Iraq and relations in the middle east" as a sort of childish "sour grapes" attack of "we couldn't stop them doing this, so we're going to get our own back now!"

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I'm no news paper journalist but check my first post on this here. I spotted it straight away

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Still,when has it ever been possible to put the words "Mirror","Good" and Journalism" in the same sentence without using the word not?

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Eh, never thought id say this to you graham, we seem to have wildly different views on things, but - good post. :tu:

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Good point. Yet another discrepancy...

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You reckon it is the Mirror's doing? That they created the pictures?

I don't think they did. I mean that is a really drastic measure to manufacture a story like that. There would have to be quite a few people in the loop, and it is inevitable someone would talk, and that would seriously damage any credibility the paper ever had for years.

My feelings about political/foreign issues aside, I still think it was some anti-war group, who wanted to ruin any good news to come out of the war. If anyone think it is far fetched, speak to Mr. Galloway. They certainly have motive, and as a tight-knit (extremist?) group, they probably have the means to do it, whilst maintaining secracy.

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Assuming the photos are fake, then the Mirror is to blame whether they created them or not. If it did not create the photos itself, it should have checked the validity of them (which appears not to have been done).

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And were back where we started... :D

Shall we go round again?

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They wonted to sell some papers with fake pictures. Some people there must have wondered themselve's about it. Not all the Mirror staff can be thick after all (although I wonder now)

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Are the mirror good at journalism? Hell no!

see it can be done ;)

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Damn.... :D

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Update on the US case:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3680025.stm

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No, but I never said that they did.

Neither do I.

Or some "chancers" who thought "we can make some money out of this, let's find an anti-war paper who will jump at these pictures and pay big bucks without worrying too much about the details".

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Please can you clarify this point.

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GMTV are claiming an anonymous officer they've interviewed says abuse is rife, but if you listen to the whole interview he just says things went on that shouldn't, is very non-descript, and ends with saying he's sure these things go on. So really he's just giving an opinion, never saw anything himself and is just reporting hearsay.
He did say that any allegations were thoroughly investigated.
Wonder how much he got paid.

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Possibly, but with a topic so emotional and political, I don't think it was done for money. No evidence, just a feeling really.


Galloway has publically and repeatedly stated he wanted the Coalition forces to be slaughtered by the Iraqis. He wanted Saddam to be victorious and to remain in power, to keep doing what he did.

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I think (if it is false) it was done as a mixture of money and politics from the mirrors point of view it ties in perfectly with the papers view and sells papers. Same for those soldiers.

Also they said that british troops swapped them around, this is why is am almost certain it is fake. Theres no way these photos could have been swapped among many hands without the media getting wind of it.

To me its a cynical and horrible attempt from the mirror to cash in on the usa thing after all it was close to the release of the American photos

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Really? You can, of course, back these statements up with credible cites and facts?

(Oh, BTW, I wouldn't post links from The Sun newspaper...)

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I was in Glasgow a couple of weeks ago, where Gorgeous George was once again the talk of the town following The Sun's claims about Saddam handing out bungs. He was interviewed on the radio, and didn't disguise his glee as he described how a previous libel victory against a newspaper had bought him a very nice new car.

So, Punky, watch out - he's a litigious little man who would happily drag you (and this site) through the courts, if he thought he could get anything worthwhile out of it.

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Bloody hell Graham, did you spend a couple of months in a dungeon this time last year? :D
How could you miss all the Galloway scandal?
His televised meeting with saddem, praising him so much we thought he was about to disappear up his backside. The pro saddam comments he made at anti war rallies. His call for the Iraqi army to slaughter our troops.
Missing Morgan saying he believed saddam should remain in power is understandable as it was on some afternoon political show, but the Galloway stuff was all over the media! Remember he called for the coalition forces to mutiny, something many people considered should have had him up on charges of treason

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Thanx for the warning towny, mate. :) Probably isn't too far fetched either.

Graham: You'll love this i'm sure and rip me apart with it, but I can't seem to find the direct quote i'm thinking of. The most known one was the one that he was found guilty for and thrown out the Labour party (He was brought up on 5 charges of disrepute, he was found guilty of inciting Arabs to fight the coalition (Which in my mind did a lot of damage, he should of encouraged them to lay down their weapons and keep the body count down, or at least kept his mouth shut), and incitng the British troops to defy orders. For some reason I can found quotes on Galloway with the other charges, but not the first one, despite it being a televised interview on 28/10/03. Those are the tame ones, although I know i've heard much worse at a couple of impromptu speeches he gave at a couple of protests. I'll keep looking though.

I think we are losing sight of the point. The one I made which started this, was that there are people out there who feel strong enough about the war, (like Galloway, Stop The War), who are extreme enough to go to extraordiary efforts to undermine the war. People like this would be likely candiates to concoct pictures to cause this much damage to the British army and inflame, incite the people in Iraq and surrounding area.

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I did not "miss all the Galloway scandal", however I (unlike some) took note of the fact that he was being accused of all sorts of things which later turned out to be either untrue, mis-representations of what he said or downright fabrications.

Again, please, cite *EXACTLY* what he said.

No, he called on them to disobey "illegal orders". Or are you saying that British Soldiers should obey orders blindly, even if they are in violation of the conventions of International Law and the Geneva Convention?

"I was just obeying orders" has never succeeded as a defence...

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hasnt it? it should......

Galloway did incite iraqis to attacks british troops and has been a downright git in all of this. He should follow Robin cooks example

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Perhaps because it was *NEVER* a "direct quote".

People keep claiming that GG said British Troops should "disobey orders", but his *exact* words were that they should disobey illegal orders, which is another matter entirely. Unfortunately most of our tabloid media decided not to make that crucial distinction in their headlinesand, regrettably, a lot of people didn't bother to check the details.

What he actually said about the Arab states was that Arab countries should deny American and British forces use of their land and air space and unite to repel any invasion force.

"Will they [the Arab states] send forces to defend Iraq this time in 2002 or will they allow the use of their forces, air space and land by the Crusaders and foreigners to attack Iraq and start a fire in an Arab, Muslim country that is part of their big entity?" Mr Galloway said on Al Jezeera, the Arab satellite broadcaster.

"Will they allow this entity to be torn and paralysed? If they do, then they deserve what is awaiting them in the next 100 years."

Now what it seems to me that he was saying is that the Arab states shouldn't collude with those in the West who want to re-shape the Middle East in *their* preferred image and who are quite content to do it with force.

So far as I can find, the charges were:

* he incited Arabs to fight British troops
* he incited British troops to defy orders
* he incited Plymouth voters to reject Labour MPs
* he threatened to stand against Labour
* he backed an anti-war candidate in Preston

and he was found guilty of all but the third charge by a three man committee of the Labour party.

Now, frankly, the last three are rather petty to say the least, the first and second are, as I've already pointed out, a distortion of what he said and that "committee" was a group picked by the leadership which sounds much more like a "kangaroo court".

Whilst there may be people who feel as strongly as you describe, to try to name names and ascribe these actions to people like George Galloway and Stop the War is verging on libellous, unless you have *very strong* proof (and not just supposition or innuendo) to back these claims up.

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Do I *need* to remind you of which group it was that tried to use it as a defence...???

See my posts above.

George Galloway was never a Member of the Cabinet, nor a Minister, nor has sat on Labour's front benches, so he could not resign from any of those positions as Robin Cook did.

Please note, however, that Robin Cook did *NOT* resign from the Labour Party, nor give up the Labour Whip. It is an important point.

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well that certainly showed me :(

i'll just get my coat....

walks with hand down outside into the cold rain, looks back waiting for someone to stop him. Watchs people cheering his absence

.......nuts

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That sounds like a serious accusation, I do hope you have evidence showing that the committee was corrupt and unjust in its finding of him as guilty.
I also suggest that you give such evidence to him as well so that he can clear his name.

As for resigning, he could have stood down as an mp in disgust if he really felt that strongly.

Talking of him, did he actually sue the papers over the document found suggesting he'd received large sums of money from Iraq?

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Xaccers you dont seem to understand its perfectly acceptable to accuse the government of lying and being corrupt without facts. Anyone else though and its a different matter

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Excuse me!!

If you were going to accuse me of corruption you'd better have some pretty hard facts behind you or you'd find yourself in a libel court s***hot!!

The government are people too and deserve protection against untrue allegations as well.

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I'm not libelling anyone, or trying to. I'm merely pointing out that a person with extremist views, is more likely to take extreme methods to satistify their aims. In some respects I did disagree with the war, but i'd never gone to the lengths that some people did/would given the chance.

I only mentioned those names because I would of thought after I said "extreme people would do extreme things", you would of said: "like who?", so I said like/in the vein of those people mentioned. Wether they would or not is another matter. Given how mainstream they are, there are bound to be even more extreme groups in the background that would love to pull a stunt like this.

Edit: BTW I loved the way you prohibited me from any Sun quotes, but you were able to quote that most impartial to people: Galloway himself.

Edit: Anyway, as I said Galloway incited the Iraqis and others to rise up against the coalition, and you produced that quote, didnt you just answer your question for me?

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Russ, what he said is kind of true. They'd probably give a press conference and deny it and that would be that. Look at all the accusations the UK and US governments have had over years, not just the last year. I'm not sure the government as an entity could sue anyone. Blair could as a citizen though I suppose, but generally they don't bother.

Like Damien said, you, and every other citizen is a different matter.

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I was sort of joking, although It does have truth in it. I wasnt saying it was right i was just be cynical.

The sad truth is the government always get attacked as does blair (being publicly called a liar with a huge campaign isnt nice) but the public never sides with them. They join in, its comes with the job.

Look at the spin problem, the government got countless attacks but the media do it all the time usually worse but what happens to them?

Gallow sued the sun about what they said but does blair ever sue the mirror or the mail? He cannot!

Look what happened when the blairs didnt want there children affected by the press (e.g. photographs published) they tried to stop it but suddenly the british 'moral' public attacked him and the majority where against them.

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No, that sounds like an *opinion*.

Had I said "He was stitched up by a kangaroo court picked by the leadership to ensure he didn't get a fair hearing", *that* would be a serious accusation.

And thus give the Labour leadership a victory on a platter. Hmm...

"I went to bed and had another long, dark night of the soul. For 20 minutes I questioned why I was staying in politics and leaving myself so wide open.

"I thought I'm almost 50 now, I can make a good living with my pen. I've got children and grandchildren. I could be doing other things instead of having to fight every hour of every day.

"And then I started to get calls of support from friends and realised if I gave in it would be a victory for the worst **** elements on the international scene and in the British Press. I'm coming out fighting again because I won't let the *******s win."

"Galloway says the allegation is based on the same documents he has already proved in court to be false, earning him £250,00 0 libel damages from an American magazine, and over which he is suing the Daily Telegraph."

Both quotes from: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html

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If I *could* find any facts on this, I would be happy to post them. Unfortunately there *are* no facts available, and, believe me, I've been looking for them.

That's why I stated it as an opinion.

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And if you sling enough mud, some of it will stick.

I don't doubt there *are* extreme people who would do extreme things, but just because you don't agree with the people you named doesn't make it a fact that they would.

Err, that was a *suggestion*, not a "prohibition".

No, what you said was (I quote)

This is *not* the same as what you have just said above.

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:notopic: again :(

Incog.

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Ah, so Cook gave the Labour leadership a victory on a platter then did he?

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Which part of "Robin Cook resigned from the Cabinet, *NOT* the Labour Party" are you having trouble understanding :rolleyes:

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Robin Cook resigned from his position in protest over going to war to oust Saddam.
Galloway didn't feel strongly enough to make similar moves, instead he was booted out for inciting arab forces to fight ours and calling for our forces to disobey their orders. Added to that his praise and support for saddam, makes in my opinion, and many others (don't know about yours, perhaps you think he's a lovely person who is talking sense and who you'd defend to the hilt, perhaps you think he's a **** bag) him a rather unsavoury charactor.
Someone of a similar, or even more extreme anti-coalition view would have a reason to stage these photographs if they are fakes (which most of the experts appear to be leaning towards but I wouln't want to say for definite until the investigation is completed).

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If these photos are proven to be fakes, what punishment (if any) will Piers Morgan and the Mirror face?

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I think regardless it would seriously affect the credibility of the Mirror, which means Piers would be 'asked' to leave. I.E. He can resign with a golden handshake, or refuse and get sacked).

I think if they are fakes it would centre around how Piers got the pics and how he checked them out. If it was proven he got them in good faith (lets say, from 2 genuine soldiers), then it would go do to how he checked them out. If he didn't bother, then that would crucify him. If he got some kind of independent testimony, giving the pictures credibility, then it would help with damage limitation, but Piers would still go.

It is unlikely, but possible that the Mirror knew they were fake and printed them anyway. If that happened, I should imagine the Mirror could get a substanial fine from the Press Complaints Comission, for deliberately trying to decieve the public. I don't think they can do anything else. The paper has no license which can be revoked, so there is no way or suspending the paper, or halting it for circulation. I doubt you could press criminal charges on Piers either.

Thats how I see it going anyway.

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That's what I was thinking.
I can't see him getting another paper to run, but you never know.
I can imagine the other tabloids like the Sun seriously attacking him.
Actually I can see that happening even if the images are shown to be genuine, simply for not doing the decent thing and having them investigated by the authorities rather than publishing them and putting our troops at greater risk.

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:banghead:

George Galloway could *NOT* make a similar move because he was *NOT* in the cabinet!! Robin Cook did *NOT* leave the Labour Party!!!

Already addressed... :rolleyes:

Perhaps I think he's got a right to freedom of expression...!!

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Regrettably, damn all.

The PCC is a completely toothless watchdog, half its membership is made up of other newspapers editors and you'd better believe they're happy to scratch each other's backs (and I'm stating that as a *fact* not an opinion because I can back it up with examples of what they've done in the past).

Morgan will argue that they believed the photos to be genuine, that they queried those who gave them the pictures and they seemed honest and that they considered it "in the public interest" to publish. The PCC will then say "ok, you did your best, even though it was a bit naughty" and then roll over to get its tummy tickled.

Morgan will probably have to quit his job, but he'll probably get a nice golden parachute and the Mirror will carry on its merry way.

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Hmm, had a thought.
Remember the halabalu about showing prisoners being captured during the conflict, and the possible breach of article 13 of the geneva convention because of it (protecting prisoners from public curiosity), isn't allowing these pictures to be published also a possible breach?

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Nope the americans said the geneva convention doent apply to the war on terror.

also there faces where not shown and there release was not to parade the prisoners but to highlight abuse

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These aren't terrorists, these are members of the Iraqi army.

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yeah. but it was billed under 'war on terror' and that applies to all of them. Bush basically gave a license for this to happen

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Interesting, so why did they give the afghans in cuba a different title to get around the geniva convention?
What is it, non-combatant fighters or something like that.

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basically in the Afghanistan war the geneva convention did apply which is why they gave a different title to them. and maybe thats why they made sure it didnt apply to iraq?

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The Bush Administration came up with the ficticious & legally meaningless term "illegal combatants" to describe alleged Taliban & Al Qaeda members captured in Afghanistan & elsewhere.

It's how they get around the Geneva Conventions in Camp Delta in Guantanamo Bay, Baghram Airbase in Afghanistan, etc. Classing them as "illegal combatants" let them do things they could not do if they were classed as POWs or charged with terrorism offences.

...The US also currently holds two US Citizens as "illegal combatants" in a base in Florida (US soil - unlike Camp Delta) - one captured in Afganistan, & one captured in the US itself.

The Geneva Conventions *do* apply to the war in Iraq, & the subsequent occupation. It is not for the US (or anyone else) to decide if they apply or not.

Although once the upcoming "handover" (of limited "sovereignty", *not* power) takes place & the occupation officially ends (despite actually still continuing), the Geneva Conventions will apparently no longer apply to the Occupying Powers (the Coalition).

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You can be a terrorist and still part of a legitimate army. The Taliban became terrorists when they gave Old Bin Liner sanctuary in their country.

With the Gulf War II, all three Husseins were terrorists because of the way they run their country (part of the Axis Of Evil), but the army was implicated because they did what they asked them to do. I know if they refused they would of gone into the plastic shredder feet first (Galloway ought to rememeber that), but as soon as they engaged the coalition, they became instruments of the terrorist regime, like the Taliban did.

But I don't think the Geneva Convention would apply here, because like Damien said, they are always hooded, they aren't being paraded to be humiliated, etc. Even if they did, I don't suppose anything would happen. I mean they did it multiple times back in March-April 2003, even after being warned. But you can't expect anything to be done about it, it is enforced by the UN. Annan has never done anything to earn his $290,000 a year salary.

On the upside though bin Laden has threatened to kill Annan, and some (what looks like) 17 year old work experience boy gave a press interview saying: "We are taking the threat very seriously (once authenticated)", so, Annan might get replaced soon, maybe with someone who'd take his job seriously.

Oh and Tez: Good point about the "illegal combatants" phrase.

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Then they should charge them & put them on trial. Not just keep them locked up indefinitely, without ever being charged with a crime, let alone convicted & sentenced.

And who is to say all the people there do actually deserve to be there? I'm sure that plenty of them probably are Taliban & terrorists, but there have been plenty of reports to suggest that some are there simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

True. I guess that they can be describe as "terrorists", in a way.

However, not all the prisoners at Abu Gharib prison are or were members of the Iraqi Army, or members of the current insurgency/resistance/terrorists (name depending on viewpoint).

Again, as with Guantanamo, some are simply people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or were just rounded up "willy nilly" during US raids (e.g. random raid finds someone owns a rifle, & they get put in jail - even though in some areas it is pretty damn necessary to own a gun).

I see what you mean about the application of the Conventions. Although the photos seem to be meant to humiliate, the Conventions may not apply to their publication, due to the prisoners faces not being visible (so they are not fully subject to "public curiosity").

Although, of course, the Conventions still apply to the illegal abuse itself (I'm not saying you said they didn't - just pointing out that there are different ways in which they apply).

Annan & the UN...It is hard to enforce things if some countries just go around & do whatever they want to anyway, or have the power to veto anything they don't like.

I do believe that the UN needs reforming though.

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Newsnight last night said that by making the convention void in the war on terror that bush may have given a strong message for this to happen

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Some stories from today's Guardian...

"Rumsfeld: I won't quit"


"UK Forces taught torture methods"


"Violations 'tantamount to torture' "


And the New York Times says.....

"Rumsfeld must go"

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This whole thing makes me sick. They are starting on our people now in Basra yet there's still no concrete proof as to what's happened or been happening. The Mirror has allot to answer for :mad:

Do they have shares in arab tv ?

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Even if the Mirror photos turn out to be fake, there is still plenty to suggest that some members of the British forces have been involved in abuse similar to that which the US forces have been involved in.

The QLR was already being investigated about abuse & so on before the Mirror photos were published.

The ICRC (International Red Cross) has reported that abuse occured not only in US-controlled areas but also in UK-controlled areas (such as Basra).

"Violations were 'tantamount to torture' "

There are also several reported incidences of abuse by British troops, which are being investigated by the MOD.

Revenge attacks by Iraqis on Coalition forces are not justified.

But neither was the original abuse by Coalition forces.



LOL, I doubt it.

They're just trying to do what they & all other papers (left & right-wing) do: sell more copies.

They may not always go about it in a "nice way", but they are not the only ones.

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Well the MoD has decided the Mirror's photo's are fake and Piers is being unsuprisingly quiet about it.
Turns out we were well aware of the Red Corss' concerns and made changes (such as not using hoods) and investigated claims of abuse.
QLR have demanded a full page appology from the Mirror.

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Yeah, I saw that last night on C4 News.

I doubt that the Mirror will apologise.

There have also been claims that the photos were staged at a barracks in the UK by TA members.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3702139.stm

The Mirror's reply (from the same link)

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Couple more stories....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3701351.stm



And I just saw this on the news.... :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3705409.stm

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The Mirror claims that the photo's are now -

"An accurate representation of what happened" as opposed to being real.

Words do not come to me at the moment which can satisfactorally sum up my exact feeling about that statement.

Needless to say however i think i would punch Peers Morgan given half a chance.

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The original claim was that the mirror risked the lives by making unproven accusations but it is clear from the last few weeks thats its properly true. So the photos may not be true but the event is so morgon will get off.

They shouldn't have done it but its not as bad as before

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But thats just it there is no proof yet so the photo's should not have been published in the first place. Now they think its some bloody TA's newb's at a base in Preston that have done those:erm:

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For some unfortunately seeing is believing and now the extremists on the Islamic side are now justifying their own brutality because of these pictures.

However I don't think that our government did themselves or our troops any favours by not talking about the known allegations a lot more loudly when they were made.This government spends too much time worrying about the polls sometimes.Tell the truth and shame the devil is a truism to live by.

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Yeah its called SPIN, you will get used to that term as you get older, a sad fact of life really.

They published those pictures on the back of the furore regarding the photos stateside to make as much cash as possible, and at the time they claimed they were real. Irrespective of the current situation, irrespective of wether there IS or IS NOT abuses going on by UK soldiers, those photos should NEVER have been published unless they had absolute proof off their authenticity, they didnt even attempt to qualify that.

The damage they have done is irreversable, and im sure is hell that the same Iraqi's / Muslims etc, that saw the abuse in those photos will never see the appology and the retraction from the Mirror.

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I know what spin means. But the fact that this acts are true making the pictures being fake not so much of an issue.

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1st the pictures will have imflamed the situtation and they will have known this 2nd Can you show us some proof that they are true. We all know what the yanks done but our guys I've heard and seen nothing

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No proof of the *actual events* depicted in the (now apparently fake) photos taking place.

But, there have still been plenty of allegations about abuse by UK troops, which are being investigated by the RMP etc. And the Red Cross report also mentioned abuses by UK troops. And the government & military have admitted to some abuses (e.g. the hoods & some other things).

Although, if still occurring, it would appear to be much less widespread & less ongoing & less extreme than the US abuses (at least based solely on the comparison between the sheer volume of info there is about the US abuses compared to the much smaller amount of info etc about any UK abuses...not great reasoning, but you get my meaning...if there was more you could think there would be more reports, like with the US abuse)

And as theblueraja said, the damage is irreversible now - regardless of whether the Mirror does issue any kind of apology :(

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This is the *only* time I can think of where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply.

The Mirror have claimed that the pictures are genuine, it should be up to them to *prove* this claim.

Which sounds to me like The Mirror trying desperately to divert attention from the hole they've dug themselves into...

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imo....what was done is beyond the pale but, we can be angry about the prisoner abuse, I really don't think that the Arab world can. Not after spawning animals like this. They should just keep their frigging mouths shut :afire:
BBC report These people can teach us a thing or two about abuse....

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yeh i read this earlier on it was inevitable.

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Breaking News.
Piers Morgan, is stepping down from Editor of the Mirror.
No details as yet.

Earlier, there were reports that US shareholders in the Trinity Group (Mirror) were worried that Morgan was bringing the paper into disrepute with these fake photos (can any of the tabloids get any more disreputable than they already are?!?).

Also, the army are continuing to press the Mirror for a full apology.

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bloody took them long enough. Why dont they run a new page with pictures entitled spot the odd one out. One of these pictures is by Piers Morgan can you guess which one lol

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V interesting. Where did you hear that?

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I saw that on BBC news it is on the breaking news bar story coming soon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3716151.stm

shame it happened today we will have to wait until next friday before we see Ian Hislops reaction on Have i got news for you :)