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Hamas Israel War
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Old 09-10-2023, 21:03   #76
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Pro-rape? Wow, thatís a peach even for you.

I suppose a terrorist sympathiser will say anything as they know the ground theyíre on is so weak.
Au contraire, Pierre.

You introduced the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I don't know about you but I'm not for the raping of young women, and cold blooded murder of OAPs and Children.

If you are, then good for you.
Something something terrorist sympathiser something weak ground.
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Old 09-10-2023, 21:36   #77
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Au contraire, Pierre.

You introduced the idea.
I stand by it. Anybody trying to justify Hamasís actions must be OK with it?

Iíím not trying to justify anything that the IDF has done in the past but trying equate the despicable isolated actions of bad IDF soldiers, passing them off as systemic to the IDF, to the ďplannedĒ and obviously ďsystemicĒ atrocities of Hamas is disingenuous and just plain wrong.

Iím not pro-Israel, Iím anti-terrorist.

This rhetoric coming out that Israel had it coming, is bull shit, and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot and a terrorist sympathiser.

This is not how you win peace, but Hamas doesnít want peace. Israel would negotiate, but it canít negotiate as Hamasís terms are the destruction of Israel.

The ball really is in the Palestinians court. Renounce Hamas. Accept Israelís right to exist, and they may be able to negotiate a future.

Three Islamic nations, two wealthy ones, have already acknowledged Israel. Morocco, Bahrain and the UAE.

This really could be Hamasís last roll of the dice.
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Old 09-10-2023, 21:44   #78
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

"May be able to negotiate a future"

Doesn't sound very concrete.

It might be Hamas's last roll of the dice but every civilian massacred by Israel in the coming days will be someone's mother, father, brother, sister, etc. There will always be someone willing to carry out a reprisal and always someone else willing to finance it. Try telling them the average Israeli isn't fair.game.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:04   #79
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I stand by it. Anybody trying to justify Hamasís actions must be OK with it?

Iíím not trying to justify anything that the IDF has done in the past but trying equate the despicable isolated actions of bad IDF soldiers, passing them off as systemic to the IDF, to the ďplannedĒ and obviously ďsystemicĒ atrocities of Hamas is disingenuous and just plain wrong.

Iím not pro-Israel, Iím anti-terrorist.

This rhetoric coming out that Israel had it coming, is bull shit, and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot and a terrorist sympathiser.

This is not how you win peace, but Hamas doesnít want peace. Israel would negotiate, but it canít negotiate as Hamasís terms are the destruction of Israel.

The ball really is in the Palestinians court. Renounce Hamas. Accept Israelís right to exist, and they may be able to negotiate a future.

Three Islamic nations, two wealthy ones, have already acknowledged Israel. Morocco, Bahrain and the UAE.

This really could be Hamasís last roll of the dice.
I agree with a lot of what you say but in terms of you point:

Quote:
Iím not pro-Israel, Iím anti-terrorist.
In this case, you would clearly condemn the state terrorism that Israel is inflecting on the civilians in Gaza, correct?
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:06   #80
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
"May be able to negotiate a future"

Doesn't sound very concrete.
It isnít, but carry on this way, there is no future. Not a good one, anyway.


Quote:
It might be Hamas's last roll of the dice but every civilian massacred by Israel in the coming days will be someone's mother, father, brother, sister, etc.
And thatís different to victims of Hamas in what way?

Quote:
There will always be someone willing to carry out a reprisal
And thatís different to Israelís reprisals now, how?

Quote:
and always someone else willing to finance it.
The IDF is well financed

Quote:
Try telling them the average Israeli isn't fair.game.
Try telling the average Israeli, they wouldnít be better off with all Palestinians either removed from Gaza. Or have Gaza under full Israeli control.

It works both ways but the big difference is Israel can and, if necessary, will subjugate Gaza to prevent a reoccurrence of this incident.

Try as it might, Hamas cannot subjugate Israel.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:16   #81
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
It isn’t, but carry on this way, there is no future. Not a good one, anyway.

And that’s different to victims of Hamas in what way?

And that’s different to Israel’s reprisals now, how?

The IDF is well financed

Try telling the average Israeli, they wouldn’t be better off with all Palestinians either removed from Gaza. Or have Gaza under full Israeli control.

It works both ways but the big difference is Israel can and, if necessary, will subjugate Gaza to prevent a reoccurrence of this incident.

Try as it might, Hamas cannot subjugate Israel.
I don't doubt that there are Israelis for whom nothing short of the genocide of the Palestinian people is an objective. Being a nation state simply legitimises it at the ballot box.

It's not really a question of who has the most money or most resource Hamas aren't really operating at a level they can reasonably expect to eliminate Israel. Neither will their successors. This exercise has demonstrated the innovative and intuitive ways that they can strike Israel where it hurts at a scale nobody expected. The main achievement is psychological. How safe are new settlements going to be?
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:21   #82
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
In this case, you would clearly condemn the state terrorism that Israel is inflecting on the civilians in Gaza, correct?
If you can point me towards the incidents of state planned and executed acts of terrorism, where they have purely intentionally and purposefully targeted civilians for the sole intention to senselessly kill women and children for no other reason than to make a political point.

Then yes, I would absolutely condemn it.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:22   #83
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
If you can point me towards the incidents of state planned and executed acts of terrorism, where they have purely intentionally and purposefully targeted civilians for the sole intention to senselessly kill women and children for no other reason than to make a political point.

Then yes, I would absolutely condemn it.
What about bombing a refugee camp and killing scores of civilians as "collateral damage". A price worth paying?
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:31   #84
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I don't doubt that there are Israelis for whom nothing short of the genocide of the Palestinian people is an objective.
That genocide of the Israelis is the Palestinian objective

Quote:
Being a nation state simply legitimises it at the ballot box.
The Palestinians appointed Hamas at the ballot box.

Quote:
It's not really a question of who has the most money or most resource Hamas aren't really operating at a level they can reasonably expect to eliminate Israel.
That was my point.

They can’t eliminate Israel, when you’re in an un-winnable situation, the sensible thing to do is negotiate a way out, that way you may come out with something.


Quote:
This exercise has demonstrated the innovative and intuitive ways that they can strike Israel where it hurts at a scale nobody expected.
It’s the equivalent of giving Israel an insect bite, not nice and it will irritate for sometime, and Israel will scratch that bite for a long time. They will also be minded to ensure in future they have plenty of insect repellent.


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The main achievement is psychological. How safe are new settlements going to be?
Oh, a hell of a lot safer now, thanks to Hamas…………how safe will Gaza be?
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:33   #85
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

I think we are on the cusp of a world war, especially since Russia has pulled out of the nuclear treaty and a build up of activity with NK
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:36   #86
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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What about bombing a refugee camp and killing scores of civilians as "collateral damage". A price worth paying?
No no, you’ll have to provide something before this incident. That camp would not have been targeted before Saturday. There may be Hamas operatives in that camp, making it a legitimate target.

I’m pretty sure all the people at the music rave were not legitimate targets, the 3 old women at the bus stop were not IDF or hiding IDF soldiers.

The girl executed in front of her parents and siblings was not an IDF commander.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:44   #87
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
That genocide of the Israelis is the Palestinian objective

The Palestinians appointed Hamas at the ballot box.

That was my point.

They canít eliminate Israel, when youíre in an un-winnable situation, the sensible thing to do is negotiate a way out, that way you may come out with something.

Itís the equivalent of giving Israel an insect bite, not nice and it will irritate for sometime, and Israel will scratch that bite for a long time. They will also be minded to ensure in future they have plenty of insect repellent.

Oh, a hell of a lot safer now, thanks to HamasÖÖÖÖhow safe will Gaza be?
How many will take the risk of.living there having seen the brutal rapes and slaughter of their fellow Israelis? The best intelligence services in the world asleep at the wheel and the Iron Dome being caught out by a couple of paragliders with assault rifles doesn't bode well for long term safety at the border zone.

Israelis have a choice where they can live, those in Gaza don't.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
No no, youíll have to provide something before this incident. That camp would not have been targeted before Saturday. There may be Hamas operatives in that camp, making it a legitimate target.

Iím pretty sure all the people at the music rave were not legitimate targets, the 3 old women at the bus stop were not IDF or hiding IDF soldiers.

The girl executed in front of her parents and siblings was not an IDF commander.
So Israel can commit war crimes but Palestinians have to observe international law. Gotcha.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:55   #88
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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How many will take the risk of.living there having seen the brutal rapes and slaughter of their fellow Israelis?
No idea, but if you think Israeli security and IDF strength will be lessened by this incident. I know youíre not that daft.

Every future Israel election will be fought off the back of this for decades.


Quote:
The best intelligence services in the world asleep at the wheel and the Iron Dome being caught out by a couple of paragliders with assault rifles doesn't bode well for long term safety at the border zone.
But it does. The amount of money and resources that will be thrown at this. Hamas have guaranteed maximum attention and resources for the IDF and MOSAD for a generation or two.

Quote:
Israelis have a choice where they can live, those in Gaza don't.
All Israelis live there despite knowing that all of their neighbours want them dead. Theyíre not going to flee. Have you not looked at any of their history? Theyíll fight for their state.

This will only harden their resolve.

Perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Lebanon or Syria will allow Palestinians to relocate to their countries? Been a bit quiet on that front.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:55   #89
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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Definitely , having been to the area a few times , Israel definitely terrorises the ordinary poeple of Gaza . That said it is not except able action but the world really has no interest in upsetting israel . As it was put to me ,and make of this what you will . What would happen if the UN desided that a group of people need a homeland and moved them in to Yorkshire driving out the people there

Apart from Israel being legally constituted by UN resolution, and nothing of the scenario you mooted applies. The distortion here is not acceptable.

I went to a lot of trouble to describe the regional history and what you say runs contrary to that. Btw, none of the gurus here have disputed my description.

The UN moved nobody into Israel. Before Israel was formed, Jews fled Europe to Palestine (in the mid 1930s) and they formed the Jewish nation nucleus.

If on independence day the Arab neighbours had not declared war, none of what is happening now would have occurred. The Arabs displaced by that day one war were the unfortunate casualties.

As to Gaza, that was Egyptian territory till they declared another war on Israel and they didn't want it back when the eventual peace treaty was signed. Gaza spawned Hamas, and Hamas terrorised Israel. Israel retaliated strongly and that's what you call "terrorises the ordinary people of Gaza" - who voted Hamas into power. Nobody was evicted from Israel to Gaza.

Just remember 7/7 in the UK and you've got Hamas in one.
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Old 09-10-2023, 22:58   #90
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Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages

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So Israel can commit war crimes but Palestinians have to observe international law. Gotcha.
Are they committing war crimes? Are you the current sole arbiter at The Hague?
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