Child grooming gang found guilty

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

So we just say that it's racially motivated and don't expand on why? Utterly illogical.

Expanding on 'why' never seems to happen when the victims of an attack are non-whites. If we only did do that when the perpetrators were white don't you see that as biased? We either ask 'why' in each case or not at all.

---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

On top of that, iirc, the men actually stated that they targetted white girls because 'they were easy' compared to asian girls......

I don't know how true that is but if if so then that adds fuel to the fire.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

I think the points Damien is trying to make are

1) that Paedophile gangs can be bolack, white and asian.
2) the majority of paedophile female victims tend to be white girls (that's whats reported in most cases)

The question he is asking is did the asian gang target white girls because they are a) racist, or b) because they identified them as being the most vunerable targets they could find.

My opinion is (b) , also because one of the people responsible for bringing potential victims to them mainly associated herself with young white girls.

Originally Posted by Russ

Expanding on 'why' never seems to happen when the victims of an attack are non-whites. If we only did do that when the perpetrators were white don't you see that as biased? We either ask 'why' in each case or not at all.

We do but you're doing the same thing. You're not happy that why isn't asked when the accused is white so you're going to do the same when the accused is non-white? We should ask why all the time.

So why in this case? Because it's considerably more complicated than the fact the men were Asian IMO.

[nomadking]

One(amongst many other) hugely important difference is this:-

who all acted individually rather than as part of a gang,

Derby case:-

total of six victims

There seems to be no indication of violent threats or coercion. It looks like they merely took advantage of the situation, rather than setting out to try to create or force a situation.

Rochdale:-

they had abused 47 girls, according to the police, though the true total is likely to be far higher.

she had been raped repeatedly by a gang of men, she said, who would ply her with vodka and threaten violence if she did not submit to them.

A key factor to look at is, if you asked somebody else in the same workplace, community, or street, how likely would it be that they would take part or not report you to the police. If somebody finds it easy, then it is a sign of an underlying problem with that area or whatever. It is an indication of the percentage of that group that is potentially willing, if approached, to take part. How would you establish whether people around you, were of a similar mindset? I suppose it's easier within a pre-established gang, but outside of one it is surely more difficult and dangerous(ie reported to police).

we are all just puppets to the media

Damien all you have done is expanded this thread. Perhaps if you made its own thread the results might have been comparable.

I personally do not read the news or watch the news or visit news websites. I would have heard of neither case had it not been for here

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

So why in this case? Because it's considerably more complicated than the fact the men were Asian IMO.

I just don't see that. Obviously nobody is saying that all, or even any more than a tiny minority of Asian men are like this.

But in such cases in the past when whites have attacked non-whites, I have never heard any 'why' discussions, or suggesting that it's more "complicated" than that.

It always seems to be a cut-and-dried case of them being racially motivated crimes. I say that should be applied here as it is in role-reversed situations. certain crimes are not committed by individual races only.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

Damien all you have done is expanded this thread. Perhaps if you made its own thread the results might have been comparable.e

Yeah. I think I messed a bit there. To ascertain if there is a problem with the media, we need to know why the original case is more newsworthy, which means we need to ask why it's important, which brings us back to square 1.

---------- Post added at 11:49 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ

It always seems to be a cut-and-dried case of them being racially motivated crimes. I say that should be applied here as it is in role-reversed situations. certain crimes are not committed by individual races only.

But you're saying that wrong and advocating be apply it here too! It's injustice for all!

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

But you're saying that wrong and advocating be apply it here too! It's injustice for all!

We either ask 'why' in all cases or none. I don't see why it has only been suggested here and not in previous ones.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I think the points Damien is trying to make are

1) that Paedophile gangs can be bolack, white and asian.
2) the majority of paedophile female victims tend to be white girls (that's whats reported in most cases)

The question he is asking is did the asian gang target white girls because they are a) racist, or b) because they identified them as being the most vunerable targets they could find.

No. In the original post Damien asked no question. He made an inaccurate post trying to compare two stories that were entirely different

A good article in The Guardian after a similar case in which a predominately white gang groomed and sexually abused children, a case which got no where near the same level of press coverage as the Asian gang did.

and made the point that this story didn't get the same level as coverage as the Rochdale one, it didn't for obvious reasons.

Regardless of his mistake, he then went on for several posts seemingly trying make a point that the men guilty of rape and abuse in Rochdale were somehow given a rough deal?????????

They were guilty and now they're banged up. Everyone had a right to be angry, and the story had a right to be publicised, and we had a right to be outraged. Regardless of the colour of the men and regardless of the colour of the girls.

I fail to see what kind of point or distinction between this crime and other similar crimes Damien was trying to make.

[Julian]

From the original story...

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused Pakistani community elders of "burying their heads in the sand" on the issue of on-street grooming.

Assistant Chief Constable Steve Heywood: "This was the most horrendous of crimes"
"There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community," he said.

"There should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.

"They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community."

That is the reason why it attracted so much publicity.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Julian

From the original story...



That is the reason why it attracted so much publicity.

And you can do nothing but admire the man for standing up and saying that.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Regardless of his mistake, he then went on for several posts seemingly trying make a point that the men guilty of rape and abuse in Rochdale were somehow given a rough deal?????????

Oh that is a dishonest representation of what I was saying, I will not allow my posts to be characterised as sympathetic to child abusers. I was making the point that Asians got a rough deal with the constant invoking of their race as an important point while white people don't have their race mentioned at all.

Also The Guardian article did reference other gangs, or groups of people, even If I was mistaken with the actual incident I cited.

I fail to see what kind of point or distinction between this crime and other similar crimes Damien was trying to make.

The use of race.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No. In the original post Damien asked no question. He made an inaccurate post trying to compare two stories that were entirely different
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I got that from after reading his subsequent posts, and what he was saying in them. I think he did mention more than once that paedophile victims are in the main white.

[nomadking]

People are trying to equate individuals taking advantage of the 'willingness' of a girl, with a gangs making plans to force girls into having sex. That is what may determine their relative newsworthiness,

Some of the girls were beaten and forced to have sex with "several men in a day, several times a week", the jury was told.
One teenager told the jury she was forced to have sex with 20 men in one night.

A previous case in Derby

The gang — all but one of whom were Asian — roamed the streets in a BMW with blacked-out windows looking for girls. They plied them with vodka from bottles and plastic cups *hidden under the seats, before raping or *abusing them. They were not the only victims in Derby. Up to 100 girls may have been ensnared in this horror after being lured by the smartly-dressed gang into the car outside school gates, shops, *coffee bars near the city’s railway station and a local park.
...
In rundown flats with mattresses on the floor, the girls were locked into rooms and turned into sex slaves. If they protested or refused, they were threatened with being beaten with a *hammer and even told they would be shot.

I remember in the mid '70s moving into new area and somebody on the school bus pointing to a girl(aged 14/15) from another village and saying "she's had more p***ks than a 2nd hand dartboard". He also made a unkind comment about her looks. The 2 things probably not unconnected(ie she was looking for approval/affection). I got the impression that adult men were involved, but still it was her 'willingness' that led to sex taking place and not any force.

There is a huge difference between individuals taking advantage of a girl who is 'willing' and gangs forming with the premeditated intention of entrapping girls as 'sex slaves'.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Pierre

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Regardless of his mistake, he then went on for several posts seemingly trying make a point that the men guilty of rape and abuse in Rochdale were somehow given a rough deal?????????

They were guilty and now they're banged up. Everyone had a right to be angry, and the story had a right to be publicised, and we had a right to be outraged. Regardless of the colour of the men and regardless of the colour of the girls.

I fail to see what kind of point or distinction between this crime and other similar crimes Damien was trying to make.

I don;t for one moment think Damien is saying that they got a rough deal. He is discussing the manner in which the case was reported, not in the verdicts, nor is he defending the perpertrators. As I recall there is not one post in this thread defending what they did or saying they got a hard/harder time because they are Asian. I think the arguments in this thread is whether a racial motive was behind it or not, and some of teh insinuations made on the whole pakistani community.