Russia has invaded Ukraine

Originally Posted by jfman

You don't sound that bothered about the raped, murdered or men of fighting age banned from leaving Ukraine as much once you get on your American imperialist soap box to be fair.

They sound more like fodder at the front line.

A cheap shot unworthy of someone who styles themselves as an ideas man. Also, wilfully ignorant of the historical resources widely available to it. Our own country’s last existential struggle is still, just, within living memory. Perhaps you should spend some time considering that and thinking about Ukraine’s position on its own terms, instead of insisting on seeing everything through the lens of your seething hatred of America.

[richard-john56]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

The UK and US got away with their war over weapons of mass destruction that killed plenty so getting away with war crimes is kinda like in their purview. Blair is now even a Knight

Got rid of a horrid dictator and his sons... yes the price was high ... note the first Gulf war.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

There is a Russian side to the story that I am starting to see trickle through (without me going looking) Like how the democratic government of Ukraine was over thrown 2014 and the current leadership simply a puppet for right wing overlords. On top of that severe racist mistreatment of Russians promoted by said leaders.

Not expressing any opinion but like I said right from the start we are seeing a hell of a lot of anti Russian propaganda and I personally have been treating all the news on it pretty much as such

2 sides to every story and war I guess and we are only hearing one side

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in fact if you look Ukraine has been incredibly unstable for a very long time

If you took all the above to be true - and I'm not sure being a Russian-speaker makes someone Russian - would that be sufficient justification in your book for Russia to invade Ukraine?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

You are incredibly judgemental for a man of your position Chris.

Ukraine had a democratic government that had alliances with Russia overthrown and replaced with a democratic government with alliances with the west and now the West are backing them against Russia. Funny that so you not think?

You only have to do a little search to see what has gone on in Ukraine people trafficking and child sex trafficking and the right wing aspects to see it is not as clean a nation as the West are making it out to be.

I am leaving God out of my discussions on the forum due to how you treated me last time Chris so please do not try to draw me into conversations on such matters

I’m sorry, Jaymoss, but if you are seriously bringing religion into this to justify your argument, just don’t’nbother.

We have seen enough evidence of Russian cruelty in this conflict to know that Putin has not got an an ounce of humanity in him. No religious scriptures can excuse him for what he has done. He has invaded his neighbour. That is not on - Ukraine was no threat to him.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I’m sorry, Jaymoss, but if you are seriously bringing religion into this to justify your argument, just don’t’nbother.

We have seen enough evidence of Russian cruelty in this conflict to know that Putin has not got an an ounce of humanity in him. No religious scriptures can excuse him for what he has done. He has invaded his neighbour. That is not on - Ukraine was no threat to him.

You should have gone to Specsavers
Chris tried to drag me into it and as you would have seen if you could read I refused to engage

You see the bit where I clearly state that "I am leaving God out of my discussions on the forum"

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

A cheap shot unworthy of someone who styles themselves as an ideas man. Also, wilfully ignorant of the historical resources widely available to it. Our own country’s last existential struggle is still, just, within living memory. Perhaps you should spend some time considering that and thinking about Ukraine’s position on its own terms, instead of insisting on seeing everything through the lens of your seething hatred of America.

I fail to see how it's a cheap shot when it perfectly sums up the tone of your post.

As for the Ukraine's position on it's own terms I'm intrigued at how you claim I've dismissed it when you so enthusiastically encompass it exclusively (but unsurprisingly) within American imperialist rhetoric seeking unattainable and unrealistic objectives.

The lessons have not been learned of Iraq or Afghanistan, and we have the latest front line in the battle to reverse increasingly diminishing American (and by proxy British) relevance on a global stage.

I have considered the Ukrainian position and a conscript army funded by US dollars sacrificed to prevent even minimal westward expansion of Russia seems somewhat an undesirable outcome. Widows and children living perpetually as refugees in foreign lands is equally an undesirable outcome. There is no rationale to be absolutely uncompromising, in particular around the already disputed regions which they have denied self-determination to, unless it is being fought on American terms.

I don't have a seething hatred for America, however I simply will not sit here as a keyboard cheerleader as America bankroll another generation of another country fight itself out of existence without questioning what benefit - if any - there will be for them in the long run. This has been a proxy war from the start - hence the decision to separate men of fighting age from women and children with the latter bizarrely welcomed all around Europe despite a supposed migrant crisis.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

You should have gone to Specsavers
Chris tried to drag me into it and as you would have seen if you could read I refused to engage

You see the bit where I clearly state that "I am leaving God out of my discussions on the forum"

Then why mention God in the first place? He has nothing to do with Putin’s deranged invasion of Ukraine and the murder and rape of its civilians. That’s down to free will, if I read correctly the usual religious apologies for the madness that carries on in this world.

As for whether God even exists and allows all this to happen, well that’s a different story and for another thread, which I will probably avoid like the plague.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Then why mention God in the first place? He has nothing to do with Putin’s deranged invasion of Ukraine and the murder and rape of its civilians. That’s down to free will, if I read correctly the usual religious apologies for the madness that carries on in this world.

As for whether God even exists and allows all this to happen, well that’s a different story and for another thread, which I will probably avoid like the plague.

Dude you have said more about God than I have. I was getting pushed into it by Chris to which I refused to engage. Nothing to see here

pretty sure you would not avoid it as from what I see you like to stir a turd here and there

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Dude you have said more about God than I have. I was getting pushed into it by Chris to which I refused to engage. Nothing to see here

pretty sure you would not avoid it as from what I see you like to stir a turd here and there

Actually, you are the one who first mentioned God. Almost as if he was your secret weapon if anyone disagreed with you.

However, I’m sure that everyone on here will be pleased that you agree we should leave Him out of it.

[Jaymoss]

Yawn if I did it was just to say I was not gonna discuss it so get off my case

Originally Posted by jfman

I don't have a seething hatred for America, however I simply will not sit here as a keyboard cheerleader as America bankroll another generation of another country fight itself out of existence without questioning what benefit - if any - there will be for them in the long run. This has been a proxy war from the start - hence the decision to separate men of fighting age from women and children with the latter bizarrely welcomed all around Europe despite a supposed migrant crisis.

It's Ukraine's choice to fight. Their concern isn't that America is funding them but they're not funding them enough.

The ultimate conclusion of your argument is America should stop funding Ukraine so they're forced to surrender on Russian terms and you're trying to portray this as a position of concern.

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

I saw your popcorn gif

alright for you seeing as you were the one trying to bring religion into it, Hope you enjoy the entertainment instead of stepping up and actually saying yes it was me. Who was it mention cowardice early? Of course I do not mean you are

Thanks … it wouldn’t show up on my browser, I thought it didn’t work. I’ve put it back now.

Incidentally - there’s a certain etiquette about replying to posts that were then deleted. I can also restore my reply to the post you made and removed earlier this afternoon if you like?

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Chris

Thanks … it wouldn’t show up on my browser, I thought it didn’t work. I’ve put it back now.

Incidentally - there’s a certain etiquette about replying to posts that were then deleted. I can also restore my reply to the post you made and removed earlier this afternoon if you like?

I replied to it before I saw it was deleted as I guess yours was. I did not see the Gif and still can not I traced the url

Still do not see you fessing up.

I guess I will end up in trouble if this continues I guess I best shut up now

Originally Posted by Chris

Thanks … it wouldn’t show up on my browser, I thought it didn’t work. I’ve put it back now.

It doesnt show up for me either, so Ive removed it as the post just looks blank.

---------- Post added at 21:29 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

I guess I will end up in trouble if this continues I guess I best shut up now

Good plan.

---------- Post added at 21:30 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------

I think its time this got back to the subject instead of pot shots and pointless arguments with each other.

[1andrew1]

France taking a hard line position now! Maybe Macron's visit to Ukraine has persuaded him.

From Sophie Pedder, Paris Bureau Chief at The Economist.

A French diplomatic source in Kyiv just now:´We are in favour of a total victory with the restoring of the territorial integrity of all territory conquered by Russia, including Crimea’.

https://twitter.com/PedderSophie/sta...36753480146945