Russia has invaded Ukraine

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re ignoring points where the “past wrong” was being portrayed as the “past right”. This requires us to trust our governments who in the past have taken the approach the ends justified the means and put out disinformation in the process to carry public opinion. But of course this time is always different because <insert reason>. It was forever thus.

I believe in the public more than you, might have something to do with going on a march some years ago when a million plus others felt strongly enough to get of their backsides and make their voices heard, these liars and charlatans get caught out and seen through in the end, I wonder how long Blair would have been in charge without that decision and how everytime he opens his mouth he's rightly imo treated with contempt

If you can point to a meaningful time any contributor of the CF Current Affairs section changed public policy (or even the mind of another member) I’d like to see it.

If you can point to anyone in Russia having conversations like this I'd like to see it

No more and no less than the rights of people in the disputed areas to have self-determination without interference from Kyiv or NATO. This is the classic western dilemma - it supports the rights of some people but not others on the basis of it’s own interests.

I remember having that discussion with Hugh when Russia annexed South Ossetia, about the right of the people that lived there to decide their future, if we'd acted then we may not be here now, Hitler and the Sudetenland spring to mind.

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re ignoring points where the “past wrong” was being portrayed as the “past right”. This requires us to trust our governments who in the past have taken the approach the ends justified the means and put out disinformation in the process to carry public opinion. But of course this time is always different because <insert reason>. It was forever thus.



If you can point to a meaningful time any contributor of the CF Current Affairs section changed public policy (or even the mind of another member) I’d like to see it. That said I’m in no way criticising open discussion - I’m merely not under the illusion that any insight offered here is meaningful in the long run or will get “us” anywhere. It’d be delusions of grandeur in the extreme to believe that.



No more and no less than the rights of people in the disputed areas to have self-determination without interference from Kyiv or NATO. This is the classic western dilemma - it supports the rights of some people but not others on the basis of it’s own interests.

Or Russia…

It’s somewhat depressing to see the FSB’s ‘lines to take’ being peddled so uncritically.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

It’s somewhat depressing to see the FSB’s ‘lines to take’ being peddled so uncritically.

Likewise the USA’s.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Or Russia…

Indeed, but there’s others out there to peddle the USA friendly lines on such matters. Jaymoss initially joined the discussion simply to state he believed there to be more to it and that we shouldn’t necessarily trust the dynamic being peddled to us by our politicians or our media. He’s almost certainly right unless this is the first time in history (no laughing at the back) the USA have sought to intervene in a war that it didn’t have ulterior motives and turn into a proxy war for its own long term interests.

Prolonging the war almost certainly benefits the USA. Less so the future Ukrainian widows in the west for whom a peace agreement and returning home to reunite their families would be a good starting point.

Ending the war prematurely rewards Russia, and punishes the people and the democratically elected Government of The Ukraine.

Spin it however you want, The Ukraine didn’t invade Russia or bombard innocent civilians in Russia.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Ending the war prematurely rewards Russia, and punishes the people and the democratically elected Government of The Ukraine.

Spin it however you want, The Ukraine didn’t invade Russia or bombard innocent civilians in Russia.

I’ve never contested those points (there’s some facts and those are indeed two of them).

However your absolutist view on ending the war “prematurely” and the disadvantages of doing so depend on the price people are willing to pay.

Chris very eloquently reflects USA’s interests in a long term battle. Bogging Russia down in a Vietnam on it’s own doorstep. At what point do Ukrainians cease fighting primarily for their own interests and start fighting in America’s? America can keep flooding in dollars and weapons until Ukraine is razed to the ground, I doubt the dead or displaced who could never return home would see that as a win.

Originally Posted by jfman

I’ve never contested those points (there’s some facts and those are indeed two of them).

However your absolutist view on ending the war “prematurely” and the disadvantages of doing so depend on the price people are willing to pay.

Chris very eloquently reflects USA’s interests in a long term battle. Bogging Russia down in a Vietnam on it’s own doorstep. At what point do Ukrainians cease fighting primarily for their own interests and start fighting in America’s? America can keep flooding in dollars and weapons until Ukraine is razed to the ground, I doubt the dead or displaced who could never return home would see that as a win.

Ukraine get to decide when they want to look to end the war by making concessions. They'll have support to do so because countries like France and Germany are clearly equivocating on their outright support for Ukraine as energy prices mount. I even imagine the UK and USA wouldn't be too against lifting of energy sanctions either.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Damien

Ukraine get to decide when they want to look to end the war by making concessions.

As it should be.

I hope Zelensky doesn’t get too cocky with US weapons and US money when considering what’s a credible outcome for both parties.

With Karzai trousering CIA money throughout his leadership and Afganistan state assets being robbed to fund compensation for Saudi backed crimes on US soil, one doesn’t have to look far to see US long term commitments aren’t credible once their strategic objectives achieved and political will exhausted. Failure to learn those lessons will leave a high price to be paid exclusively by the Ukrainian people.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61767191

Putin and Peter the Great: Russian leader likens himself to 18th Century tsar

Vladimir Putin's admiration for Peter the Great is well known but he now seems to have ideas of "Great"-ness himself.

He has openly compared himself to the Russian tsar, equating Russia's invasion of Ukraine today with Peter's expansionist wars some three centuries ago, and making his strongest acknowledgment yet that his own war is a land grab.

Mr Putin's apparent empire-building ambitions bode ill for Ukraine and have irked other neighbours, including Estonia, which called his comments "completely unacceptable."

Russia's president was meeting young scientists and entrepreneurs when he made the remarks. Before talking IT and tech development he talked politics and power: the new battle he sees for geopolitical dominance. In that, he told his select audience that Peter the Great was a role model.

"You might think he was fighting with Sweden, seizing their lands," Mr Putin said, referring to the Northern Wars which Peter launched at the turn of the 18th Century as he forged a new Russian Empire.

"But he seized nothing; he reclaimed it!" he said, arguing that Slavs had lived in the area for centuries.

"It seems it has fallen to us, too, to reclaim and strengthen," Mr Putin concluded, with a near-smirk that left no doubt he was referring to Ukraine and his aims there.

Peter's rule, he suggested, was proof that expanding Russia had strengthened it.

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:49 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

As it should be.

I hope Zelensky doesn’t get too cocky with US weapons and US money when considering what’s a credible outcome for both parties.

With Karzai trousering CIA money throughout his leadership and Afganistan state assets being robbed to fund compensation for Saudi backed crimes on US soil, one doesn’t have to look far to see US long term commitments aren’t credible once their strategic objectives achieved and political will exhausted. Failure to learn those lessons will leave a high price to be paid exclusively by the Ukrainian people.

Pretty sure giving up additional territory to Russia, or letting them get off scot free* after they’ve killed thousands of Ukrainians, displaced 13 million people, and pulverised most of their cities, wouldn’t be seen as "credible" by Zelenskyy or the Ukrainian people…

*Putin’s stated aims

Originally Posted by jfman

As it should be.

I hope Zelensky doesn’t get too cocky with US weapons and US money when considering what’s a credible outcome for both parties.

With Karzai trousering CIA money throughout his leadership and Afganistan state assets being robbed to fund compensation for Saudi backed crimes on US soil, one doesn’t have to look far to see US long term commitments aren’t credible once their strategic objectives achieved and political will exhausted. Failure to learn those lessons will leave a high price to be paid exclusively by the Ukrainian people.

I’m wondering if you’ve given even a moment’s thought for the civilians being raped and murdered in occupied territory, or whether for you this war is just a very good day to fulminate agains the USA.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Pretty sure giving up additional territory to Russia, or letting them get off scot free* after they’ve killed thousands of Ukrainians, displaced 13 million people, and pulverised most of their cities, wouldn’t be seen as "credible" by Zelenskyy or the Ukrainian people…

The UK and US got away with their war over weapons of mass destruction that killed plenty so getting away with war crimes is kinda like in their purview. Blair is now even a Knight

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

I’m wondering if you’ve given even a moment’s thought for the civilians being raped and murdered in occupied territory, or whether for you this war is just a very good day to fulminate agains the USA.

I’m not convinced more war will result in less rape and less murder, in fairness.

I acknowledged the high price the Ukrainian people are paying and would pay in a prolonged war above. To be more clear yes, I meant more than a financial price when I stated that.

You yourself acknowledged above the benefits to the USA:

it’s awfully convenient for them to see Russia’s entire army being gradually blown to pieces in the Donbas. It’s likewise convenient for them to see how their equipment, and Russia’s, behaves in the field

This isn’t toy soldiers. There’s real people out there getting killed every day. For every death there are reprisals. The unpleasant reality of war.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Chris

I’m wondering if you’ve given even a moment’s thought for the civilians being raped and murdered in occupied territory, or whether for you this war is just a very good day to fulminate agains the USA.

Have you seen thi first hand or just going on what you have been told? I am not saying this is not happening but it is typically the type of thing regularly used in propaganda

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not convinced more war will result in less rape and less murder, in fairness.

I acknowledged the high price the Ukrainian people are paying and would pay in a prolonged war above. To be more clear yes, I meant more than a financial price when I stated that.

You yourself acknowledged above the benefits to the USA:



This isn’t toy soldiers. There’s real people out there getting killed every day. For every death there are reprisals. The unpleasant reality of war.

I did indeed acknowledge there are great strategic benefits (to all of NATO, in fact, and not just the USA), but it doesn’t matter how self-interested you think America is, an alignment of interests between NATO and Ukraine doesn’t lessen Ukraine’s right to defend itself in any way, any more than the Western allies’ cause was less just in WW2 for having made a pact with Stalin.

Based on what was discovered in the briefly occupied territories in the north and northeast, Ukraine has every reason to suppose that long-term occupation of the south and southeast would be equally intolerable for Ukrainian citizens there. It is quite at liberty, given the events of 2014 and since, to believe that ceding territory to Russia will not only impoverish those trapped beyond the line of control but give Russia a new start line for its next military action against Kyiv, even if that action is another 10-15 years down the line.

Ukraine clearly - justifiably in my view - sees itself as in an existential struggle, and if it is able, via diplomacy or outright propaganda, to skin Western nations for $billions worth of weapons in order to pursue that struggle as far as it possibly can - even to the complete liberation of its internationally-recognised borders, if possible - then it is free to do so. And no foreign policy aim expressed by the USA or its allies this century changes Ukraine’s basic right to act as it has.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

I did indeed acknowledge there are great strategic benefits (to all of NATO, in fact, and not just the USA), but it doesn’t matter how self-interested you think America is, an alignment of interests between NATO and Ukraine doesn’t lessen Ukraine’s right to defend itself in any way, any more than the Western allies’ cause was less just in WW2 for having made a pact with Stalin.

Based on what was discovered in the briefly occupied territories in the north and northeast, Ukraine has every reason to suppose that long-term occupation of the south and southeast would be equally intolerable for Ukrainian citizens there. It is quite at liberty, given the events of 2014 and since, to believe that ceding territory to Russia will not only impoverish those trapped beyond the line of control but give Russia a new start line for its next military action against Kyiv, even if that action is another 10-15 years down the line.

Ukraine clearly - justifiably in my view - sees itself as in an existential struggle, and if it is able, via diplomacy or outright propaganda, to skin Western nations for $billions worth of weapons in order to pursue that struggle as far as it possibly can - even to the complete liberation of its internationally-recognised borders, if possible - then it is free to do so. And no foreign policy aim expressed by the USA or its allies this century changes Ukraine’s basic right to act as it has.

You don't sound that bothered about the raped, murdered or men of fighting age banned from leaving Ukraine as much once you get on your American imperialist soap box to be fair.

They sound more like fodder at the front line.