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Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
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Old 15-03-2021, 09:59   #1
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Exclamation Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police

I cannot watch BBC news ATM all they are banging on about is how the police handled the gathering in Clapham Common.


Oh! They did go on about the heavy-handed police but didn't mention that it was an illegal gathering, and as such they should NOT have been there.
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Old 15-03-2021, 10:06   #2
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Re: Coronavirus

But was it illegal?

Covid Regulations meets Human Right Act.

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Old 15-03-2021, 10:31   #3
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r View Post
I cannot watch BBC news ATM all they are banging on about is how the police handled the gathering in Clapham Common.


Oh! They did go on about the heavy-handed police but didn't mention that it was an illegal gathering, and as such they should NOT have been there.
It really wasn’t that clear cut.

An official vigil was planned and the organisers went to the high court when the police threatened to shut it down. The judge refused to rule on it and told the police and the organisers to sort it out amongst themselves. That’s when it went sideways - instead of accepting the judge’s recommendation to collaborate the Met dug its heels in and started threatening the organisers with £10,000 fines. They had no choice but to cancel the official event at that point, however by now it was so late in the day a lot of people had firm plans to be there anyway. So instead of an orderly event with stewards provided by the organisers the Met was left to deal with a disorganised crowd.

The Met’s response was cack-handed in the extreme and also inconsistent with its approach to other recent events in the capital. Other police forces around the UK were waiting for the Met to take the lead on this before deciding how to proceed but seem to have been so frustrated at its mule-headedness they generally just allowed protests in other cities to go ahead, with only light-touch policing where necessary.

I don’t know how high up the chain of command this went, but whichever idiot decided to continue threatening the organisers with maximum fines even after the judge advised them to collaborate, really needs a sound kicking. A stewarded event with civilians in high vis would have been a completely different prospect.
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Old 15-03-2021, 11:20   #4
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
It really wasn’t that clear cut.

An official vigil was planned and the organisers went to the high court when the police threatened to shut it down. The judge refused to rule on it and told the police and the organisers to sort it out amongst themselves. That’s when it went sideways - instead of accepting the judge’s recommendation to collaborate the Met dug its heels in and started threatening the organisers with £10,000 fines. They had no choice but to cancel the official event at that point, however by now it was so late in the day a lot of people had firm plans to be there anyway. So instead of an orderly event with stewards provided by the organisers the Met was left to deal with a disorganised crowd.

The Met’s response was cack-handed in the extreme and also inconsistent with its approach to other recent events in the capital. Other police forces around the UK were waiting for the Met to take the lead on this before deciding how to proceed but seem to have been so frustrated at its mule-headedness they generally just allowed protests in other cities to go ahead, with only light-touch policing where necessary.

I don’t know how high up the chain of command this went, but whichever idiot decided to continue threatening the organisers with maximum fines even after the judge advised them to collaborate, really needs a sound kicking. A stewarded event with civilians in high vis would have been a completely different prospect.
And how would an "orderly" event have been any different. It would've have been even larger number and even more disorganised and aggressive by the protestors. Define "recent events" that weren't under different rules? Eg Piers Corbyn has been arrested several times.
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Old 15-03-2021, 12:07   #5
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
And how would an "orderly" event have been any different. It would've have been even larger number and even more disorganised and aggressive by the protestors. Define "recent events" that weren't under different rules? Eg Piers Corbyn has been arrested several times.
No. You first define - or rather, prove - your assertion that an orderly event would have been even more disorganised and aggressive. Please and thank you.
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Old 15-03-2021, 12:40   #6
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Re: Coronavirus

Bottom Line

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national...t-home#history

Quote:
When you can leave home

You must not leave or be outside of your home except where you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. This is the law. The police can take action against you if you leave home without a ‘reasonable excuse’, and issue you with a fine (Fixed Penalty Notice).
Feel free to read the whole page, let me know in which section it says it was a 'reasonable excuse' and therefore allowed.
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Old 15-03-2021, 12:51   #7
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth View Post
Bottom Line

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national...t-home#history



Feel free to read the whole page, let me know in which section it says it was a 'reasonable excuse' and therefore allowed.
As I posted this morning, a high court judge refused to rule on whether an event per se was a reasonable excuse or not. He asked the organisers and the police to agree together, a reasonable way forwards. The wording “reasonable excuse” in law is used precisely to provide leeway in unusual circumstances and to avoid criminalising behaviour unless it’s absolutely necessary to do so.

It was the police’s attempt to continue to pursue absolute prohibition that allowed things to get out of control. The organisers had dozens of crowd marshalls ready to assist, but they couldn’t do anything because the police threatened them with maximum fines as event organisers.
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Old 15-03-2021, 13:21   #8
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth View Post
Bottom Line

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national...t-home#history

Quote:
When you can leave home

You must not leave or be outside of your home except where you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. This is the law. The police can take action against you if you leave home without a ‘reasonable excuse’, and issue you with a fine (Fixed Penalty Notice).
Feel free to read the whole page, let me know in which section it says it was a 'reasonable excuse' and therefore allowed.
As long as the law is applied equally...

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Old 15-03-2021, 13:26   #9
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Re: Coronavirus

Yes I read that about the Judge Chris, but that just implies to me that the Judge made a weak decision - laying responsibility onto others instead of himself.

Quite why the women wanted to have a vigil/protest (whatever) during lock down, to highlight and bring attention to something that was already filling up every type of media outlet is beyond me (probably because I'm male? ).

They knew the rules regarding lock down as well as anybody else.


edit: no idea what that means Hugh
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Old 15-03-2021, 13:47   #10
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth View Post
Yes I read that about the Judge Chris, but that just implies to me that the Judge made a weak decision - laying responsibility onto others instead of himself.
Actually the judge demonstrated perfectly why the question you asked has no straightforward answer - and that the law intends that to be the case. There is meant to be room for compromise here. The Metropolitan Police seems to have missed that, and made no attempt to engage after the judge explicitly stated that they ought to.
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Old 15-03-2021, 14:17   #11
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Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police

ahh OK Chris, thanks for clearing it up that it's the police at fault then

but seriously, we've seen media frenzy when the police don't do their job, when the do their job but are racist, when they drag their heels on their job, when they rush their job, when they want to do their job but have their hands tied, etc etc

There are complaints because there aren't enough women/multicultural/disabled in the force, that they're corrupt, that they protect their own etc.

Seems to me that anyone who wants to be in the force in the circumstances must be a complete nutter . . they would be better off staying unemployed and running a drugs ring from home
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Old 15-03-2021, 14:24   #12
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Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police

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Originally Posted by Carth View Post
ahh OK Chris, thanks for clearing it up that it's the police at fault then

but seriously, we've seen media frenzy when the police don't do their job, when the do their job but are racist, when they drag their heels on their job, when they rush their job, when they want to do their job but have their hands tied, etc etc

There are complaints because there aren't enough women/multicultural/disabled in the force, that they're corrupt, that they protect their own etc.

Seems to me that anyone who wants to be in the force in the circumstances must be a complete nutter . . they would be better off staying unemployed and running a drugs ring from home
If someone throws a punch, then that's the fault of the person who threw the punch. If a crowd whose presence was anticipated is poorly managed so that tempers flare, then that's the fault of those whose job is to manage crowds. There is evidence here of poor forward planning for an event that was not obviously disallowed under covid regulations.
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Old 15-03-2021, 14:26   #13
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Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police

The fact the police said yes and then no to the vigil, suggests someone high up said it couldn't go ahead because of Covid restrictions.

I get the message about women wanting to feel safe walking the streets at night, not just in London but everywhere. However, if people attending a mass rally, holding candles and standing shoulder to shoulder in solidarity, you know, the usual emotional fluff, is going to stop a sadistic and predatory murderous person, now and in the future, then they need to have their heads examined and certainly, those idiots holding signs saying abolish the police, won't help either.

That said, I am critical at the inconsistency of police action or inaction at certain protest events during lockdowns. Last week, Rangers fans were able to celebrate their victory, Black Lives Matter protests occurred, unimpeded by police.
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Old 15-03-2021, 14:35   #14
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Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
The fact the police said yes and then no to the vigil, suggests someone high up said it couldn't go ahead because of Covid restrictions.

I get the message about women wanting to feel safe walking the streets at night, not just in London but everywhere. However, if people attending a mass rally, holding candles and standing shoulder to shoulder in solidarity, you know, the usual emotional fluff, is going to stop a sadistic and predatory murderous person, now and in the future, then they need to have the heads examined and certainly, those idiots holding signs saying abolish the police, won't help either.

That said, I am critical at the inconsistency of police action or inaction at certain protest events during lockdowns. Last week, Rangers fans were able to celebrate their victory, Black Lives Matter protests occurred, unimpeded by police.

Agree with much (if not all) of that. Inconsistencies all over the place and it makes you wonder what the criteria is to allow some things and not others.
Front line plod must be confused to heck when told they can't do today what they did yesterday and vice versa . . poor buggers end up with all the crap
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Old 15-03-2021, 16:04   #15
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Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police

In these pandemic times people need to use their brains. I have no problem with people wanting to pay respects to someone who has died...BUT.... They need to either do it virtually, or do it alone.
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