Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[Mr K]

There seems to be 'hate' on both sides, it doesn’t bode well. If people don't like the status quo, they'll vote for change, regardless of what the change is.
Saying how bad anyone else will be, isn't enough.

Originally Posted by jfman

"Full of hate" such uninspiring and divisive rhetoric. The kind of thing I'd strongly advise unionists against as it's simply perpetuating and entrenching their problem at the ballot box.

Believing Scotland could self-govern better than it is being governed from London isn't a hateful pursuit. Portraying it as such is denying the right of Scottish people to self-determination - be that a decision to remain in the UK or independence.

There has been no denying any such thing. A Democratic decision that has already taken place in 2014. That result saw the Scottish people, opt to convincingly decide to remain in the UK....In a once in a.... not my words but the SNP!

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by jfman

"Full of hate" such uninspiring and divisive rhetoric. The kind of thing I'd strongly advise unionists against as it's simply perpetuating and entrenching their problem at the ballot box.

Believing Scotland could self-govern better than it is being governed from London isn't a hateful pursuit. Portraying it as such is denying the right of Scottish people to self-determination - be that a decision to remain in the UK or independence.

The uncomfortable truth more like.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

The uncomfortable truth more like.

If roughly 50% of the people are “full of hate” then Scotland has far more to worry about. If, on the other hand, it’s simply a lazy trope to dismiss reasonable political beliefs then it perhaps says more about the severe limitations of the other side to engage with the substantive point.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

There has been no denying any such thing. A Democratic decision that has already taken place in 2014. That result saw the Scottish people, opt to convincingly decide to remain in the UK....In a once in a.... not my words but the SNP!

The next generation is here, it will be have been about 10 years by the time of any vote. 10 years worth of new voters.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by jfman

If roughly 50% of the people are “full of hate” then Scotland has far more to worry about. If, on the other hand, it’s simply a lazy trope to dismiss reasonable political beliefs then it perhaps says more about the severe limitations of the other side to engage with the substantive point.

It's not the people it's the SNP that are full of hate.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

It's not the people it's the SNP that are full of hate.

If roughly 50% of the population are considering voting for a party “full of hate” I’m not sure the value of the distinction.

Do they either not see it, or worse still agree with it?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Believing Scotland could self-govern better than it is being governed from London isn't a hateful pursuit.

They're doing such a great job with the devolved powers they have now aren't they?

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by jfman

If roughly 50% of the population are considering voting for a party “full of hate” I’m not sure the value of the distinction.

Do they either not see it, or worse still agree with it?

We will have to see if they vote for the Snp, other party's are available.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

They're doing such a great job with the devolved powers they have now aren't they?

It would appear yes, if as expected they're the largest party that's the verdict of the voters.

[Mythica]

Originally Posted by Mick

There has been no denying any such thing. A Democratic decision that has already taken place in 2014. That result saw the Scottish people, opt to convincingly decide to remain in the UK....In a once in a.... not my words but the SNP!

Didn't they vote to remain in the UK that was part of the EU? Things have changed since that vote, I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on them not having another vote.

Originally Posted by Mythica

Didn't they vote to remain in the UK that was part of the EU? Things have changed since that vote, I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on them not having another vote.

No, we didn’t.

The referendum question had no caveats - it was “Should Scotland become an independent country?” With the available answers limited to “yes” or “no”.

Obviously the losing side will argue that things change. If it hadn’t been the EU it would have been something else. I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that the SNP would have just given up no matter what.

One thing to bear in mind is that any of the “but we were promised” arguments, like EU membership, are being made by people who weren’t inclined to listen to those promises in any case. The argument about promised EU membership is being made by separatists, on behalf of those who did not, and do not, support them.

I’m very happy to confirm, as someone who believes in Scotland’s place as part of the UK, that separatists do not speak for me. They do not get to explain to anyone else why I voted the way I did in 2014, they do not get to tell anyone how I feel about it now, and they certainly don’t get to claim to know what I want to happen next.

[jfman]

They don't need to speak for you, it simply has to resonate with enough voters to prompt them to buy into the SNP manifesto commitment around it.

While it may well have been something else had the UK remained in the EU, it would have to be compelling to enough voters to persuade them to back the SNP on that basis.

Equally what people want to happen next is for them to decide in elections and any subsequent referendum if it takes place.

Scottish voters at a fixed point in time don't get to unilaterally decide their opinion is the only one that matters for 25, 40, 100 years regardless of what happens in the intervening period.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

There has been no denying any such thing. A Democratic decision that has already taken place in 2014. That result saw the Scottish people, opt to convincingly decide to remain in the UK....In a once in a.... not my words but the SNP!

Correct but if the Scottish electorate votes for the SNP then they are knowingly asking their government to hold a referendum on independence. People and parties change their minds.

[Mythica]

Originally Posted by Chris

No, we didn’t.

The referendum question had no caveats - it was “Should Scotland become an independent country?” With the available answers limited to “yes” or “no”.

Obviously the losing side will argue that things change. If it hadn’t been the EU it would have been something else. I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that the SNP would have just given up no matter what.

One thing to bear in mind is that any of the “but we were promised” arguments, like EU membership, are being made by people who weren’t inclined to listen to those promises in any case. The argument about promised EU membership is being made by separatists, on behalf of those who did not, and do not, support them.

I’m very happy to confirm, as someone who believes in Scotland’s place as part of the UK, that separatists do not speak for me. They do not get to explain to anyone else why I voted the way I did in 2014, they do not get to tell anyone how I feel about it now, and they certainly don’t get to claim to know what I want to happen next.

You might not have done but others might have done.

Again, why are people so hell bent on there not being another referendum. Whether people like it or not, a massive change happened to the UK after the result. I believe that would warrant another referendum based on that outcome.