Coronavirus (OLD)

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Deaths will occur whatever we do. We do not possess the Hand of God. If it were otherwise, we would not be facing all those care home deaths, would we?

---------- Post added at 12:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------



No, the virus is doing that all by itself, mate.

... or the pandemic the "hand of God"? Or, more likely, there is no god.

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Originally Posted by jfman

<SNIP>

It's really not rocket science if there's political will to do it. However for some like Old Boy, even in one the darkest moments for humanity, he can't extract himself from his bitter opposition to state intervention even where it's there to support the small business owners etc. To the extent he views hundreds of thousands of deaths, and undoubtedly millions globally, as a price worth paying. It's quite sad really.

....jfman and vice versa! Btw, I haven't read into OB's position an avid opposition to the current state intervention.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I'll ask again, what do you think is an acceptable amount of deaths for the UK to have to sustain in order to protect the economy?

This is a question all governments answer all the time, with regards to health policy. In wars, they answer it too, in terms of acceptable losses balanced against military advantage.

I'm not sure how fair it is to expect a solid answer to such a question on an internet forum. I expect the balancing act is highly delicate. To attempt to just splash a figure here would be the very definition of crass. Nevertheless, just because it is a difficult question to be handled sensitively, it does not follow that the question should not be answered. It has to be.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Chris

This is a question all governments answer all the time, with regards to health policy. In wars, they answer it too, in terms of acceptable losses balanced against military advantage.

I'm not sure how fair it is to expect a solid answer to such a question on an internet forum. I expect the balancing act is highly delicate. To attempt to just splash a figure here would be the very definition of crass. Nevertheless, just because it is a difficult question to be handled sensitively, it does not follow that the question should not be answered. It has to be.

If someone is prepared to say on an internet forum that they think there is an acceptable loss of life in order to protect the economy, they should also be prepared to provide that value and defend their viewpoint in a reasonable discussion.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

This is a question all governments answer all the time, with regards to health policy. In wars, they answer it too, in terms of acceptable losses balanced against military advantage.

I'm not sure how fair it is to expect a solid answer to such a question on an internet forum. I expect the balancing act is highly delicate. To attempt to just splash a figure here would be the very definition of crass. Nevertheless, just because it is a difficult question to be handled sensitively, it does not follow that the question should not be answered. It has to be.

That's a shrewd observation. Existential threats isa trhe characterisation of both situations. Hence "acceptable losses".

Trouble is, one has to be somewhat callous to defend the Guvmin on that basis (Chris isn't defending them her in my reading). War is one thing where it's kill or be killed whereas the pandemic is die if you don't hide.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

If someone is prepared to say on an internet forum that they think there is an acceptable loss of life in order to protect the economy, they should also be prepared to provide that value and defend their viewpoint in a reasonable discussion.

No. Acknowledging that government involves difficult choices between competing issues of critical importance is not the same as professing expertise in making those choices. And I think its a more honest position than making virtue-signalling comments like 'whatever it takes.'

I don't know where the line should be drawn and I'm thankful I don't have to make that call. But I acknowledge that somebody has to.

We are in uncharted waters and I think that we have to accept there are no certainties for now. It's obvious that science,medical knowledge are running to keep up at present. I would rather the media would stop endlessly ramping up the worry and anxiety levels with constant speculation and guesswork and just stick to the facts as they have been announced by WHO and our local homegrown experts.

[joglynne]

NHS officials have issued a high-priority alert warning of a rise in children presenting with a 'multisystem inflammatory state requiring intensive care' amid concerns the cases could be related to coronavirus.

'The cases have in common overlapping features of toxic shock syndrome and atypical Kawasaki disease with blood parameters consistent with severe COVID-19 in children.

'Abdominal pain and gastrointestinal symptoms have been a common feature as has cardiac inflammation. This has been observed in children with confirmed PCR positive SARS-CoV-2 infection as well as children who are PCR negative.

'Serological evidence of possible preceding SARS-CoV-2 infection has also been observed. There is a growing concern that a SARS-CoV-2 related inflammatory syndrome emerging in children in the UK or that there may be another as yet unidentified infectious pathogen associated with these cases.'

https://www.gponline.com/gps-alerted...rticle/1681480

[jfman]

Can't see many parents wanting to send their kids to schools if there's one, or possibly two, serious infections doing the rounds.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I'll ask again, what do you think is an acceptable amount of deaths for the UK to have to sustain in order to protect the economy?

I say again, the virus will determine that. We are slowing it down, not stopping infections.

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Originally Posted by jfman

Old Boy falsely claiming we can't influence the number of deaths by either by managing the health service or delaying as much as possible until a vaccine is found.

Your opinions are so wrong as to be absolutely dangerous Old Boy.

There's a reason why Germany and South Korea have relatively few deaths and a reason the UK, Spain and Italy have a high number.

Do you seriously believe that, jfman, or are you offering everyone false hope?

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:28 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Imagine how much worse it would be if we didn't have the lockdown in place.

It would be over a lot quicker, that's all.

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

You are basically agreeing to sacrifice peoples lives to protect the capitalist market. That's not hysterical. In my opinion it's lunacy.

Here we go again, attack capitalism!

What you advocate in relation to the lockdown measures would have been very popular with King Canute. He was a great advocate of the power of hope and delusion over nature.

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Originally Posted by denphone

That bears not thinking about.

I see no bears, Den. That is just alarmist.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by joglynne

NHS officials have issued a high-priority alert warning of a rise in children presenting with a 'multisystem inflammatory state requiring intensive care' amid concerns the cases could be related to coronavirus.

https://www.gponline.com/gps-alerted...rticle/1681480

Prof Simon Kenny, NHS national clinical director for children and young people, said: 'Thankfully Kawasaki-like diseases are very rare, as currently are serious complications in children related to Covid-19, but it is important that clinicians are made aware of any potential emerging links so that they are able to give children and young people the right care fast.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I say again, the virus will determine that. We are slowing it down, not stopping infections.

This continues to be incorrect. You are assuming that everyone will be infected, that that they will be offered the exact same type of medical intervention at all times and that no improvements in either treatment or in the form of a vaccine will arise. Not all of those statements are true.

Indeed, you are contradicting yourself in your desperation of selling everyone the falsehood that the economy needs to reopen at all costs.

On one hand you are telling us that the likelihood is that herd immunity is the solution - in which case slowing the spread ensures that medical services are not overrun as we saw in Italy. On the other you are telling us that the virus could die off or mutate itself out of existence the summer - in which case what's the rush? Let's sit it out til the end of August and lives will be saved.

Do you seriously believe that, jfman, or are you offering everyone false hope?

I absolutely stand by my statements here.

It would be over a lot quicker, that's all.

Not for the grieving families it wouldn't.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

This is where it's important that targeted Government intervention supports those who need it at this time. What would people do with this support? Buy essentials, pay bills. This is money pushed back through the system.

At the other side ensure that the tax system is reformed to capture tax from the main beneficiaries of the lockdown (Amazon, large supermarkets, etc.) to ensure everyone comes back to a level playing field.

It's really not rocket science if there's political will to do it. However for some like Old Boy, even in one the darkest moments for humanity, he can't extract himself from his bitter opposition to state intervention even where it's there to support the small business owners etc. To the extent he views hundreds of thousands of deaths, and undoubtedly millions globally, as a price worth paying. It's quite sad really.

What nonsense, jfman. I'd really like to know what kind of state intervention you have in mind. The money to keep people away from their employment will eventually run out. Then what will we do? And those on pensions won't be ok either, there will be no money for that.

If you are applying rocket science to how you deal with this virus, it explains why you think this is such a straight forward nut to crack. If you're a rocket scientist, that is.

You may delude yourself that mankind will always beat nature, but nature has a way of proving us wrong.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

If someone is prepared to say on an internet forum that they think there is an acceptable loss of life in order to protect the economy, they should also be prepared to provide that value and defend their viewpoint in a reasonable discussion.

You have not understood this, have you?

Of course we should take practical measures to slow down this virus. But you will not stop it.

You may save people from dying now, but they will still die tomorrow. It is a better policy to protect the vulnerable and at the same time create herd immunity in the healthy population than take futile measures that wreck the economy and achieve only a slowing down of the progress of the virus.

By protecting the vulnerable in this way, there will be much less risk of those people much more susceptible to the worst effects of this virus actually catching it.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You may delude yourself that mankind will always beat nature, but nature has a way of proving us wrong.

Mankind will never beat nature that is for sure.

Its because of mankind and its the rampant destruction of the natural world that we are in this mess.

There is a single species responsible for the Covid-19 pandemic and that is us humans.

If humans don't learn from this pandemic then future pandemics will inevitably be worse then this one.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What nonsense, jfman. I'd really like to know what kind of state intervention you have in mind. The money to keep people away from their employment will eventually run out. Then what will we do? And those on pensions won't be ok either, there will be no money for that.

If you are applying rocket science to how you deal with this virus, it explains why you think this is such a straight forward nut to crack. If you're a rocket scientist, that is.

You may delude yourself that mankind will always beat nature, but nature has a way of proving us wrong.

Old Boy I really think you should go for a lie down.

I've clearly outlined that I think the state should support people's incomes, and pointed out that this supports the underlying economy that we will inevitably return to in due course.

If you aren't willing, or are unable, to understand that at a macroeconomic level states can bankroll projects and investment in a way that you cannot as an individual then the conversation will continue to go around in circles.

I'm sure you understand that describing something as 'not rocket science' is a common turn of phrase to indicate that something is not as difficult to do as others suggest.

I'm completely unsure where your last sentence comes from. It's almost as if you want the virus to 'win' in some perverse way.

Can I just ask OB have you go investments that you were intending to cash in on in the next 12-36 months? It's really the only reason why I can understand your impassioned, if at times incomprehensible, sales pitch that we are all inevitably doomed so we should return to our minimum wage jobs to survive our last few months on this earth.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Btw, I haven't read into OB's position an avid opposition to the current state intervention.

Spot on, Seph. What I am opposed to is futile actions that destroy the economy.

I am used to some on here that like to twist what I say into something completely different so they can have an argument. However, I hope that the majority on here get my drift.