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Old 12-04-2020, 23:02   #2056
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Re: Coronavirus

I think Coronavirus has legitimate political discussion, but it’s not about Boris and his many children, it’s the absolutely inept response from the Government that will see our body count the highest in Europe according to many.
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Old 12-04-2020, 23:07   #2057
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I think Coronavirus has legitimate political discussion, but it’s not about Boris and his many children, it’s the absolutely inept response from the Government that will see our body count the highest in Europe according to many.
A bit of conflated weasel wording there, jfman.

Which part of the highlighted sentence is "according to many" and which according to you?

"... absolutely inept response from the Government ..." is presumably your view as well as the many.

"...will see our body count the highest in Europe ..." ditto.

So, why try to cover yourself with the "according to many"?


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Old 12-04-2020, 23:11   #2058
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Well if he can protect NHS workers (as of tomorrow), give them a significant pay rise, rescue the economy
Why single out NHS workers ?
I'm sure everyone else would like significant pay rises as well.

Who is collecting your rubbish ?
Who is providing your power ?
Who is providing your food ?

There are numerous other examples.

The NHS do a great job, but I suggest you remember everyone else who is doing a great job as well.

How do you think we would "rescue the economy" if we gave everyone significant pay rises ?

We are all going to suffer the economic repercussions of the massive spending over the next 2/3 months of lockdown, do you really think we could keep it up long term ?
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Old 12-04-2020, 23:15   #2059
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Why single out NHS workers ?
I'm sure everyone else would like significant pay rises as well.

Who is collecting your rubbish ?
Who is providing your power ?
Who is providing your food ?

There are numerous other examples.

The NHS do a great job, but I suggest you remember everyone else who is doing a great job as well.

How do you think we would "rescue the economy" if we gave everyone significant pay rises ?

We are all going to suffer the economic repercussions of the massive spending over the next 2/3 months of lockdown, do you really think we could keep it up long term ?
You could have this conversation with someone trying to save your life in a a few weeks time, risking their own life if they don't have the correct PPE. As Boris has found you only value the NHS when you need it.
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Old 12-04-2020, 23:27   #2060
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
You could have this conversation with someone trying to save your life in a a few weeks time, risking their own life if they don't have the correct PPE. As Boris has found you only value the NHS when you need it.
Not at all. You were accusing Paul of only valuing the NHS when he needed it. By implication, you meant pretty much everyone else - and there is no genuine basis for your assertion.

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Old 12-04-2020, 23:33   #2061
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
As Boris has found you only value the NHS when you need it.
You know nothing about what I value.
I can tell you however that I dont value your pointless "contributions" to Cable Forum.
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Old 12-04-2020, 23:34   #2062
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
. As Boris has found you only value the NHS when you need it.
No doubt you are a 24/7/365 advocate of the NHS that sings, dances and does them occasional mime, all the time for the deep love you feel for the NHS.

Or possibly the typical virtue signalling Facebook warrior were all sick to the back teeth of.

I know where my pound is.
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Old 12-04-2020, 23:35   #2063
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Re: Coronavirus

I'm at work for 6am tomorrow . . yes on a bank holiday.

I work in a food factory so can't work from home . . . unless I just don't go, and not get paid

It's not 'frontline' like the NHS workers, and for many it's nothing like their wage either, but if I and those like me decided to stay off work you'd all be eating grass and bark next week

It's probably as difficult to maintain a 2 meter distance from one another in a factory as it is a hospital

Biggest difference though, is that we're working with product not people, and not (hopefully) in close contact with Covid 19 all day long.

NHS workers deserve a massive 'thankyou' package when this is all over
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Old 12-04-2020, 23:46   #2064
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
A bit of conflated weasel wording there, jfman.

Which part of the highlighted sentence is "according to many" and which according to you?

"... absolutely inept response from the Government ..." is presumably your view as well as the many.

"...will see our body count the highest in Europe ..." ditto.

So, why try to cover yourself with the "according to many"?


There's been a number of articles saying it's going that way Seph. I don't have to say it, and given the number of people in the thread inclined to defend the Government at all costs it's not an effective use of my (plentiful) time.

I suppose what I am curious about is what would be a bad total that would make others in the thread think it has been mismanaged.

I'll be happy to come back and discuss when we see final figures and excess death counts. I'll be over the moon if we aren't the worst in Europe.
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Old 13-04-2020, 00:07   #2065
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
There's been a number of articles saying it's going that way Seph. I don't have to say it, and given the number of people in the thread inclined to defend the Government at all costs it's not an effective use of my (plentiful) time.

I suppose what I am curious about is what would be a bad total that would make others in the thread think it has been mismanaged.

I'll be happy to come back and discuss when we see final figures and excess death counts. I'll be over the moon if we aren't the worst in Europe.
I'm curious as to where the Government hasn't followed the advice of its science and medical advisors which would go towards a case of mismanagement.
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Old 13-04-2020, 00:51   #2066
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Re: Coronavirus

The final calculation will be horrifically complex. We need to arrive at “excess deaths” - those who would not have died in the very short term had they not contracted the virus, which will mean discounting some people who are currently being counted - while also including those whose death from c19 wasn’t immediately obvious.

When making a comparative count against other similar countries we also need to look at where each country started from. If, for example, a significantly higher number got into the UK at a very early stage from a virus hotspot, then that immediately puts us at a disadvantage, and it would be unfair to judge our response on equal terms with a country where only a few infected people initially got in.

Likewise the effectiveness of the official response must in some way be measured while taking our industrial starting point into account. Is it the case that Germany’s pharmaceutical and industrial chemical industries gave them a head start on testing kits, for example? Were chances to ensure strategic domestic production of key chemicals and other resources missed during the routine wargaming all governments do when considering scenarios like this?

Of course as soon as politicians feel the death rate has fallen to an acceptable level the gloves will come off and this will just get a two dimensional political treatment, who should have done what and when, aided and abetted by all the usual cheerleaders writing for all the usual outlets.

But the hard research work must be done, it must be done well, and the outcome must be treated honestly by our politicians. We can’t afford to go through this sort of upheaval again. We simply have to learn the lessons and be properly prepared.
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Old 13-04-2020, 00:53   #2067
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Re: Coronavirus

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Old 13-04-2020, 00:55   #2068
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
There's been a number of articles saying it's going that way Seph. I don't have to say it, and given the number of people in the thread inclined to defend the Government at all costs it's not an effective use of my (plentiful) time.

I suppose what I am curious about is what would be a bad total that would make others in the thread think it has been mismanaged.

I'll be happy to come back and discuss when we see final figures and excess death counts. I'll be over the moon if we aren't the worst in Europe.
I understand what you've just said. In this situation there are different strands accounting for different things.

One strand is the overall count, which follows expected epidemic behaviour. The Guvmin, in following the science, isn't to be seriously criticised here, imo.

Another strand is the tragedy of deaths among selfless NHS workers, where the Guvimin should be criticised for the waffle and bullshit they've been putting out instead of coming clean from day 1 that they simply can't get the stuff that's needed due to worldwide demand.

Yet another strand is the deaths of transport workers for which the Guvmin can't be directly blamed. The bus companies couldn't get hold of protective gear and sanitisers but the Guvmin did ignore something that was predictable.

A further strand is what's going on in care homes. The Guvmin should be roundly criticised for not setting the Communities Secretary ("Three Homes") onto that

I suppose that in terms of strands, the Guvmin hasn't done all that well. But in terms of wider impact, they've done all that could be expected, imo.



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Old 13-04-2020, 01:10   #2069
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
I understand what you've just said. In this situation there are different strands accounting for different things.

One strand is the overall count, which follows expected epidemic behaviour. The Guvmin, in following the science, isn't to be seriously criticised here, imo.

Another strand is the tragedy of deaths among selfless NHS workers, where the Guvimin should be criticised for the waffle and bullshit they've been putting out instead of coming clean from day 1 that they simply can't get the stuff that's needed due to worldwide demand.

Yet another strand is the deaths of transport workers for which the Guvmin can't be directly blamed. The bus companies couldn't get hold of protective gear and sanitisers but the Guvmin did ignore something that was predictable.

A further strand is what's going on in care homes. The Guvmin should be roundly criticised for not setting the Communities Secretary ("Three Homes") onto that

I suppose that in terms of strands, the Guvmin hasn't done all that well. But in terms of wider impact, they've done all that could be expected, imo.



There's a huge difference in not doing all that well and mismanagement. I think their biggest failing is lack of transparency. The truth may well have been hard to bear but would have prepared people for the worst which I think is yet to hit.
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Old 13-04-2020, 07:17   #2070
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
I'm curious as to where the Government hasn't followed the advice of its science and medical advisors which would go towards a case of mismanagement.
There are clear obvious points where it’s deviated from what the rest of the world are doing. Following bad advice doesn’t admonish you when there’s plenty of contradictory evidence out there including the WHO advice on dealing with pandemics - test, trace, isolate. The question would be what gave them the confidence that our advice was better?

Would it not enter your head as to wonder why we end up with a death toll higher than Italy, if we did, despite having longer to react? I’m guessing not.
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