Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Originally Posted by phpscott

Nope will be a local team like the Walsall Webwise or Peterborough Phorm

Unless they go abroad - then they could sponsor Into Mi-line

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 14:32 ----------

If anyone was wondering how Phorm plan to implement their no medical, religious etc policy and thought that the system wouldn't create a profile then you may be enlightened by this quote from an interview with Kent.

"We will not let advertisers use words that might relate to sensitive topics such as adult content, medical conditions and so on."

In other words they are still going to gather the information and can process it and the only "control" on the use of that information is that the advertisers will be given a black-list of key words. Hardly the most secure solution since this is exactly how spam filters work and the amount of spam has increased year on year.

It is also worth noting that the above statment was made on 10th April 2008 - exactly two months to the day after Phorm received the Interim Privacy Report from 80/20 Thinking which stated that...

"...information from websites and queries regarding sexual content, political
preferences, medical health, racial origin should be blocked from
processing."

So Phorm have clearly decided to ignore the Interim PIA and will continue to harvest and process this extremely personal and private information and there's nothing in his staement to say that the "random" number cookie will not contain references based on this information.

All this is saying is that if you have a stroke you won't get adverts from any clinics but you will be bombarded with adverts for a day trip to Lourdes or a one handed tin-openner.

---------- Post added at 15:16 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Did I really say that?

"We're.. always using (the Web) as an integration platform and a collaboration platform, rather than just seeing it as a rather opportunistic punt." - Hugo Drayton CEO UK Phorm Speaking in February 2004 when he was Manager of the Telegraph Group of newspapers.

Amazing how some people lose their principles when you wave a few fivers in front of them.

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by Peter N

Did I really say that?

"We're.. always using (the Web) as an integration platform and a collaboration platform, rather than just seeing it as a rather opportunistic punt." - Hugo Drayton CEO UK Phorm Speaking in February 2004 when he was Manager of the Telegraph Group of newspapers.

Amazing how some people lose their principles when you wave a few fivers in front of them.

Interesting, a quick Google for quotes by Hugo Drayton also reveals a sincerely held concern for protecting private business from negative impact;

Where [BBC] is not helping UK plc is in doing anything that has a negative impact on private businesses in Britain," said Hugo Drayton, chairman of the British Internet Publishers' Association. "Selling ads is not very helpful and is clearly detrimental to others."

Rather like Phorm really. What business would want their private unencrypted communications with their customers intercepted, and the marketing intelligence used to sell advertising for lazy competitors? That would have a negative impact on private business in Britain, and clearly be detrimental.

Q - How many Phorm execs does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A1 - None - they can't afford a new bulb.
A2 - None - they'll just steal someone elses light.
A3 - Only one. Kent will hold the bulb while the whole world revolves around him.
A4 - None - they're all too busy screwing us.
A5 - None - they just click their fingers and the ICO does it for them.
A6 - Two - one to fit the bulb and another one to search through your cupboards.
A7 - Four Hundred - one to fit the bulb and three hundred and ninety-nine to tell everyone why the new bulb is better than Google.
A8 - Ten Thousand and one - one to fit the bulb and ten thousand to try and find the off switch.
A9 - Fish (Surrealist joke)
A10 - One - but he'll do it when you're not looking and you won't be told about it for two years.
A11 - One - but he'll try to sell you something whilst he's doing it.
A12 - None - why screw when you can spin.
A13 - None - they'd rather keep us in the dark.

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by Florence

I know what you are saying and I wouldn't normally say get more organised but if Phorm does start to be rolled out vis all larger ISPs then small website developers, those with charity websites do need something. I would have said the ICO, ripa etc would do the job but sadly they seem to be lacking in vision, responsibility or understanding that or blindly led by the nose through all the BS.. MPO

Hi Florence

I have a number of websites that ar Non Profit and host a number of websites for Non Profit Groops and charity websites as well, all of them ar covered by DHEA's Terms and Conditions what is very long.

From the T&C's

Use of the Sites (s) and the Interactive Services

The Sites (s) and the Interactive Services are for personal and non-commercial use only. You may copy electronically and print portions of the Sites (s) for your personal, non-commercial use only. In particular, you may not use any information from any directory or other listing or information retrieval service (if any) made available on or by the Sites (s) and/or the Interactive Services, in connection with any business or commercial undertaking (whether or not for profit). Any other use of materials on the Sites (s) and/or the Interactive Services (including without limitation reproduction for a purpose other than that noted above and any modification, distribution or republication) without the prior written permission of Dyslexia Health Education Association is strictly prohibited. You also agree not to deep-link and/or frame to any of the Sites (s) for any purpose, unless specifically authorised by Dyslexia Health Education Association to do so.

I think this will put a spanner in the works for Phorm.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by tdadyslexia

Hi Florence

I have a number of websites that ar Non Profit and host a number of websites for Non Profit Groops and charity websites as well, all of them ar covered by DHEA's Terms and Conditions what is very long.

From the T&C's

I think this will put a spanner in the works for Phorm.

Make sure you get over to Dephormation site to look at the Webmaster tools, including the Webwise blocking/redirection ones and the invoicing ones that roll off logs and invoices to send to the ISP's running Webwise.
www.dephormation.org.uk

[madslug]

Originally Posted by tdadyslexia

Hi Florence

I have a number of websites that ar Non Profit and host a number of websites for Non Profit Groops and charity websites as well, all of them ar covered by DHEA's Terms and Conditions what is very long.

From the T&C's

I think this will put a spanner in the works for Phorm.

You have not yet received one of Emma's little emails then, telling you that the wording on the site does not matter: the parsing script can't read it as it only looks at the 10 most popular non noise words. If you let google visit your site, phorm is free to visit too, make a copy and profile all your visitors from your content.

The one thing about this that makes me want to spit is that BT/phorm have the instruction all wrong. An intercept does not take place if the site being profiled hosts the oix advertising script. What is needed is a whitelist of all these sites: they are part of the oix partnership and can be profiled as much as they like (as long as they have the targeted ad script on their site).

Phormed ISPs, OIX partners and the handful of phorm shareholders who are happy to be profiled can all play in the little pond all on their own. Well away from the rest of us.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

Originally Posted by R Jones

ACtually the phrase you should use is "sought, er.. obtained er legal advi - er opinion" - you are being far too UNambiguous. If you continue to make such precise statements there is a danger that people will know what you mean!!



Good on you. But I will be surprised if you get a reply. You can also try the BT Retail legal boys - they don't reply either.

Chief Counsel Commercial Law (Consumer),

It would not surprise me too much if BT's in-house lawyers are busy catching up on everything to do with DPI and who may complain, who may need compensation, and who may be canceling holiday plans for a few years. One or two were happy to ask many questions a week ago. I expect they are not yet up to steam.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

Originally Posted by Florence

Is it time a group of people start up a vouluntary help group bit like one that deals with helping small website owners fight larger companies using copyrighted content. Sure if one was started then we could try to get help from the EU just as other groups looking after the evironment, human rights etc.

Is it time to get more organised.

Most copyright / royalty issued are handled by just one body on behalf of everyone, i.e. records played on radio.

For website copyright / royalties to succeed they will need to be 'managed' by a similar body. Once it is set up, claims will be much easier to process. It is all a matter of getting everyone to agree the steps from A to B.

It is really easy for ISPs to report on which copyrighted sites have been visited by phormed customers - they have all the router logs - and from there it is a simple matter to add in the royalty charge for each 'impression'. No need to give any IP address information - all nice and anonymous.

If website owners want phorm to succeed then they charge less royalty than the ISPs' share of the advertising revenue. Charge just 1p more and the ISPs will soon want to be free of all the hassle of auditing the royalties due. [Anyone who supplies the copying equipment is also liable for royalties, so don't feel you have to limit what you charge for royalties to the ISPs' share.]

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Peter N

If anyone was wondering how Phorm plan to implement their no medical, religious etc policy and thought that the system wouldn't create a profile then you may be enlightened by this quote from an interview with Kent.

"We will not let advertisers use words that might relate to sensitive topics such as adult content, medical conditions and so on."

In other words they are still going to gather the information and can process it and the only "control" on the use of that information is that the advertisers will be given a black-list of key words. Hardly the most secure solution since this is exactly how spam filters work and the amount of spam has increased year on year.

<snip>

There is a lot more info to be gained from little quotes like that too. Advertisers can't use the words. Look at the other side of that coin too - I believe certain content sites from one of those phrases make up over 60% of search engine searches and are always looking for increase revenue from their advertising real estate. Of the rest, 10% now relate to pharmacy.

[Florence]

Oh I had one of them Mudslug she even asked me to prove which domain names were mine and she would add me to the black list. I am sure if I went into the library borrowed a book and took it for granted that bercause it is in the public library I can copy pages out of it without specifically contacting the author first to request permission.. Same with websites thye can see our rules so can whois the domain name and con tact us asking if we mind... then build their white list of sites they can phorm...

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Peter N

A general request for the tech-experts (texperts?)

Can one of you post a laymans explanation of the use of traceroutes and how it relates to this issue? It may help some of the non-techys amongst us to understand the significance of all of these posts.

Trace route would be like the post office writing on the back of a letter all the places the letter went on route

1 you taking it from your house to the post box (hop one)
2 the van to the sorting office,
3 the sorting office to the truck,
4 the truck to the sorting hub,
5 the hub to the correct local delivery office
6 local delivery office to the post man
7 postman to final destination.

Now it could get misrouted, say SG14 read as SO14 and sent to the wrong sorting office (Southampton, not Stevenage) and then need correcting so that would add other hops, a truck could break down and so a replacement truck would add into the list adding more hops.

Thanks.

The concern was about how it relates to Phorm and Webwise. It was a gentle nudge in the direction of saying that the thread was getting a bit bogged down with technical discussions and note swapping that contained no actual Phorm related content.

The general agreement is that it doesn't directly relate at present but it needs to be monitored for possible signs of Phorm activity. The nice thing is that it was discussed and resolved without any problems - that does great credit to everyone here.

Pete (Bluecar1) has started a seperate thread for that subject and he'll let us know if anything comes to light.

It's important that every who can contributes - just run an occasional scan and keep our eyes open in general for anything unusual. The main reason that BT got away (so far) with their hidden trials in 2006/2007 was that most of us would have assumed that any problems were just "one of those things" - we know better now and we have the tools (or at least the friends with tools) to be able to check for ourselves.

[Tarquin L-Smythe]

Phorm Inc US sums it up well.
Did I miss the test again then?

[Green Disease]

First time poster long time lurker. I have followed this issue for several months, after first reading about it on El reg. I have had Virgin Media broadband for several years. In the whole it has been pretty good, although the past 6 months I have seen a downturn in the service. Connection issues such as DNS, DHCP problems, blank pages loading. The other day I had a blank browser page suddenly pop-up with an URL I had looked at earlier in the day. Had me paranoid, so did virus scan etc..

Virgin Media have been a little too quiet for my liking in regard to how deep they are in with Phorm. From Virgins own site "we have run a small technical lab test on a private internal network, not connected to the internet". Interesting how they add the last 5 words. Not sure how much they would glean from such a test.

If they were to introduce Webwise, they would lose all 4 services we have with them, even though it would cost a small fortune to move to other suppliers. I would make sure the whole estate knows about the scumware.

Clearly BT have jumped in with both feet, and are tied into a least doing a large scale trial. They probably have already purchased the servers required, and are currently gathering dust somewhere. I have read I few comments about whether Phorm kit is still sat on the Kingston RAS. Has anyone asked them that question?

I have been looking at the illegal downloads issue and found a link to the consultation paper that BERR have produced:-http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file47139.pdf

Alternative regulatory options considered:

Option A4: Requiring that ISPs allow the installation of filtering equipment
that will block infringing content (to reduce the level of copyright infringement taking
place over the internet) or requiring ISPs themselves to install filtering equipment that
will block infringing content.

I take it Phorms system could quite easily do this.

Hmmm interesting conversation between ISP's and government departments.
ISP: You want us to crack down on illegal activity, we have been in touch with a company called Phorm that have the technology called webwise which can see everything users visit on the internet, and there fore allows us to block infringing content. We gain revenue from the targeted ads we provide to our customers, but it also allows us to do the biding of your paymasters so its in both our interests.

Government: Sounds good to me, we cant see anything wrong with this, you'll be providing a valuable service to your customers......and to the government.

I find it rather unnerving that the government seems to be turning a blind eye to Webwise/Phorm, there's something bigger afoot. I will continue following this issue, as I believe that Webwise and other similar projects will break the WWW.

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by Green Disease

Virgin Media have been a little too quiet for my liking in regard to how deep they are in with Phorm. From Virgins own site "we have run a small technical lab test on a private internal network, not connected to the internet". Interesting how they add the last 5 words. Not sure how much they would glean from such a test.

Quite. What value would such a test present if it weren't consuming content from the Internet? I did ask them what content they used (with a view to probable copyright infringements), but they didn't reply.

Originally Posted by Green Disease

If they were to introduce Webwise, they would lose all 4 services we have with them, even though it would cost a small fortune to move to other suppliers. I would make sure the whole estate knows about the scumware.

Just a personal view, unless you act now to take the business away, I don't think they will feel the pain.
And look at it this way, if they do see sense, and you want to restore your services you always have that option.
I've been pleasantly surprised by my new ISP. Customer service and quality of services seems to be a big differentiator for the smaller ISPs.

Originally Posted by Green Disease

Clearly BT have jumped in with both feet, and are tied into a least doing a large scale trial. They probably have already purchased the servers required, and are currently gathering dust somewhere. I have read I few comments about whether Phorm kit is still sat on the Kingston RAS. Has anyone asked them that question?

If you believe Gavin Patterson of BT, this is the final week of the internet without spyware, before Phorm is switched on... for the third time. Of course, BT have been saying that since 14 February 2008.

Originally Posted by Green Disease

I find it rather unnerving that the government seems to be turning a blind eye to Webwise/Phorm, there's something bigger afoot. I will continue following this issue, as I believe that Webwise and other similar projects will break the WWW.

Have you seen the FoI documents on Dephormation. If not you might find them interesting to read.
I still haven't been told by the Home Office, when they were first contacted about Phorm, who they were contacted by, and the details of the request and reply. How hard can that be? Its taken them 3 months, and I'm still waiting.

[Wildie]

1984 is not around the corner but it`s here now.

[Dephormation]

Just seen Phorm & friends have tried to nominate Alex for KFO. They have failed already.

[Bonglet]

Still all illegal btw dont forget