Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by ~$ su

I see another kind of nonsense here.
Phorm aren't doing anything that isn't already done by other companies and hasn't been done for many years.

Would you mind expanding on that peculiar assertion? Like with detailed examples?
And I suspect Phorm might like to know too as it'll have some bearing on their patent application.

You try being an ISP and not having certain information about your customers on your servers and databases when all their traffic is going through you.

Traffic flows *through* an ISPs servers (not sure which databases you might mean) but Phorm's WebWise profiling server is there to *collect* and *analyse* my browsing data. Which ISPs currently do that?

If you don't like what Phorm and VM are doing, complain, opt-out, or use a proxy.
It's that simple.

What the hell do you think we're doing?

If you've not got anything useful to contribute, what's your motive in posting?

[aMIGA_dUDE]

Just watched Working Lunch (11/03/2008) and the CEO of phorm was on there. He had an easy time on the program and it only was only given a few minuts worth time at the very end.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ch/7289331.stm

At time writing it not on iplayer of broadband player until about 15:30

[popper]

Originally Posted by ~$ su

I see another kind of nonsense here.

Phorm aren't doing anything that isn't already done by other companies and hasn't been done for many years.

You try being an ISP and not having certain information about your customers on your servers and databases when all their traffic is going through you.

If you don't like what Phorm and VM are doing, complain, opt-out, or use a proxy.

It's that simple.

~$ su

it appears you dont quite get it, by design or otherwise is yet to be determined.

infact Phorm ARE doing something compleatly different to the other companys.

Phorm are the only 3rd party commercial company signing commercial contracts with the internet backbone ISPS and putting a direct connected 'profiler' and related kit inline of every single users payed for and contracted direct connection.

there is NO way to stop any and all of your data streams being intercepted by this Phorm supplyed and installed Profiler kit inside the ISPS data centers.

NO other 3rd party companys have any such intercepting kit in any ISP.

plus, these other 3rd party commercial companys are using mear site based data collection, and you DO have the choice NOT to goto these sites, and so not be subject to their data collection of what you do there.

does this clear up your current misconception somewhat, and help you finally understand the basic problem here with Phorm and the contracted ISPS plans?.

[none]

Last from the reg - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...hares_plummet/

Published Tuesday 11th March 2008 13:13 GMT

CPW builds wall between customers and Phorm

Carphone Warehouse has become the first of the three UK ISPs who have agreed to pimp data to ad targeting outfit Phorm to announce a major rethink of how it will use the technology.

Company representatives have told users in forums that they are working on a way to ensure that traffic from people who opt out will never enter the Phorm system. "We had a meeting yesterday and based on customer opinion we decided to use a different method, yet to be decided, to split the traffic so it doesn't hit a Webwise server at all for those that opt out," one wrote.

read rest here - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...hares_plummet/

[~$ su]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Would you mind expanding on that peculiar assertion? Like with detailed examples?
And I suspect Phorm might like to know too as it'll have some bearing on their patent application.

The technology has been around for ages, as well as arguments about this sort of problem and sensationalist screams of "OMFG WHERE ARE MY PRIVACIES?!?!!".

I remember a certain amount of leaked/lost data by AOL a while back.

Use google. You'll have a harder time showing it hasn't happened.

Originally Posted by ceedee

Traffic flows *through* an ISPs servers (not sure which databases you might mean) but Phorm's WebWise profiling server is there to *collect* and *analyse* my browsing data. Which ISPs currently do that?

Most do to some extent. As do many particular companies with their own programs. Which in turn backs up my first reply above. There are thousands of different technologies available to monitor your traffic. Legal and otherwise.

"but Phorm's WebWise profiling server is there to *collect* and *analyse* my browsing data"
- where do you think they're getting this data? Why make a deal with an ISP if they're not actually providing anything?

Originally Posted by ceedee

What the hell do you think we're doing?

If you've not got anything useful to contribute, what's your motive in posting?

You're expressing your own views, as are many others. That is all. You're not spearheading the revolution, you're complaining and whining. It may or may not have any effect at all. It'd be better sharing different ways of working round this. Rather than screaming and hoping someone else will do it for you.

"If you want to roll over and let Phorm and VM drastically alter the basis of the internet"

As if that is a useful contribution.

It's exaggeration, and unnecessary.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Florence

I posted information they were a PR company back on page 47 I think http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34502235-post703.html

Once I had found out but for some reason everyone seemed to just miss it as noone started to mention PR for a few pages.

i named him PhormUKPRteam way back in the thread though

im not keen on all the name calling though, as hes only being payed to do a job,however id advise he needs to be FAR more careful with his responses, as per the giving obvously wrong info about the cookie and potentially telling people to turn off the cookie to opt-out, and so feeding the profits to Phorm by doing so.

[~$ su]

Originally Posted by popper

~$ su

infact Phorm ARE doing something compleatly different to the other companys.
....
does this clear up your current misconception somewhat, and help you finally understand the basic problem here with Phorm and the contractsed ISPS plans?.

Thanks for the welcome.

I realise my first post was somewhat incomplete and was largely a reaction to "If you want to roll over and let Phorm and VM drastically alter the basis of the internet".

Agreed, Phorm are doing it in a different way. Though my point stands. For a long time there have been companies and organisations monitoring personal data in some way, and every time it gets a similar response - some more hysterical than others (the quote).

The 2gb of data AOL lost - the email monitoring ads of google mail - etc. etc.

I just think it'd be better to be reasonable. Find ways around it. Help each other. Stop being the baying crowd waiting for the riot.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by popper

HI PhormUKPRteam, nice to see you didnt go missing after all LOL.

regarding your (phorm supplyed and aproved information to you as one of their PR personel)

"You can permanently opt out by blocking cookies from the domain"

NOT true.

you are fully aware from previous statements this is infact untrue, as infact blocking cookies DOES NOT permanently opt the user OUT of this Phorm system.

blocking this cookie you speak of, infact forces the Phorm installed Kit to pass the already collected and processed data past the Profiler, onward to allow the Phorm company to then collect any profits they may have with the advertisers.

you infact NEED a cookie to so called Opt-out and even then,it mearly stops the passing of the collected and processed potentially personal data from the Phorm supplyed 'profiler', flowing into the 'add picking' part of the Phorm system.

your also aware, with or without the Phorm supplyed site cookie, a users personal IP number and other potentially personal data is always flowing into the Phorm supplyed Profiler once its installed into the ISPS data center and activated (such in any trials etc).

your also fully aware after reading these sites and posts and emails etc, that infact the only way to really opt out, once this Phorm kit is installed and activated, is to send your ISP a 'data protection act notice' removing their right to send the data subjects personal data in any form to any such profiler electronic device.

very good point popper. I also think this.

In effect the final stage of the ad hitting our PC's is the least of our worry. The problem is the PROFILER that is the worst issue. WE cant do a JOT to stop it who cares on scummy advert. We can get ad blockers now to stop spamming we dont need there stupid little cookie.

Once they profile us theres the real damage which is already done. All opt out does is prevent that silly advert showing up on your pc. So all it is in my opinion is there internal AD blocker not an opt out. IT's misleading PR.

Finally I firmly believe what man can make man can undo. I know doubt will see someone make a nice programs which will interfere with there game.

Also worry is what davies says about embeded cookie. If we take is word is this going to be an embedded rootkit identifier but legal.

[beardsley]

If we believe that Phorm only process data from the most popular two browsers, then this might cause a bit of fun:

Firesomething

It will give a random user-agent string.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by ~$ su

The technology has been around for ages, as well as arguments about this sort of problem and sensationalist screams of "OMFG WHERE ARE MY PRIVACIES?!?!!".
I remember a certain amount of leaked/lost data by AOL a while back.
Use google. You'll have a harder time showing it hasn't happened.

You claimed that other companies were "doing" what Phorm intend -- not that the technology has been available.
AIUI, the AOL (and NetFlicks) data was from people *visiting* their sites -- completely and utterly different to Phorm's plans.

Most do to some extent. As do many particular companies with their own programs. Which in turn backs up my first reply above. There are thousands of different technologies available to monitor your traffic. Legal and otherwise.

I'll ask again: Show me *one* ISP that collects and analyses the kind of data that the Phorm/WebWise profiler will be capable of?

"but Phorm's WebWise profiling server is there to *collect* and *analyse* my browsing data"
- where do you think they're getting this data? Why make a deal with an ISP if they're not actually providing anything?

VM will be obtaining the data from my clickstream -- a completely new process afaik.
If you've got evidence of other ISPs currently doing this, I'm sure many of their users (and probably the Information Commissioner) would appreciate it.

You're expressing your own views, as are many others. That is all. You're not spearheading the revolution, you're complaining and whining. It may or may not have any effect at all. It'd be better sharing different ways of working round this. Rather than screaming and hoping someone else will do it for you.

You haven't noticed that there's significant ongoing research into solutions?
You haven't noticed my nick in threads contributing to that research on at least half a dozen sites and forums?
Haven't looked very hard, have you?

"Spearheading the revolution"?
"Complaining and whining"?
"Screaming and hoping someone else will do it for you"?
Kindly substantiate just one of those before I declare you a troll.

"If you want to roll over and let Phorm and VM drastically alter the basis of the internet"
As if that is a useful contribution.
It's exaggeration, and unnecessary.

As you evidently believe that ISPs already do everything that Phorm/WebWise will be capable of when operational, there's no point debating how releasing our clickstreams for exploitation changes the status quo.

Don't suppose you're contracted by Phorm to disrupt us, by any chance?
No?
Then drop your anonymity (heh, it doesn't seem to mean much to you!) and explain how you're contributing or your motivation for not doing so.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Jayceef1

I have never said that I dismiss peoples genuine concerns or argue that black is white. Again you misinterpret. Just that people should base their concerns on facts rather than unfounded speculation of what it will do or what might happen in the future.

But the patent shows otherwise. I note that you did not chose to respond to my post about how this would work if it were the postal or telephone system.

How about if it were your mobile phone. You make a call and get text message adverts based on who you called and what you talked about. Same concept and with voice analysis going the way it is soon to be possible.

[Florence]

Originally Posted by popper

i named him PhormUKPRteam way back in the thread though

im not keen on all the name calling though, as hes only being payed to do a job,however id advise he needs to be FAR more careful with his responses, as per the giving obvously wrong info about the cookie and potentially telling people to turn off the cookie to opt-out, and so feeding the profits to Phorm by doing so.

yes on page 50 after mine.. anyway lets work on the communications.. We have been knocking on VM doors and Phorm for assurances which seem to be getting the normal Ostrich reply. Has anyone contacted OFCOM to see if this breaches any OFCOM rules?

I have just downloaded this to see if I can spot any. http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi..._final0703.pdf

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by PhormUKPRteam

Again to reiterate the point Webwise can never know who you are or where you've browsed. All that is ever stored is a random number, advertiser categories eg sport or travel and a timestamp. You can permanently opt out by blocking cookies from the domain, www.webwise.com.

At the moment, another question then. Why does the patent state that other information may be taken and stored and how would we know that what is being done now would not change in the future. Shrewdly as a UK listed company you have lesser filing requirements than a US listed company so can disclose less to your investors than you would need to on a 10Q or 10K SEC filing.

---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Florence

Anyone who does a little work from home occasionaly wil have all the works details picked up by this Phorm, It will take a simple script an a few seconds and without your knowledge Phorm could have your name address and telephoine number if it is stored on your PC...

I agree with most of your thread but if your employer lets you work from home and use the internet into their company or their mail system without https or VPN then they have bigger problems.

[dav]

Just seen a great quote that may be relevant to some here....

"No matter how paranoid you are, what they are really doing is worse than you could possibly imagine" - Ralph J Gleason.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by popper

its also interesting that infact Phorm didnt register with the data protection registrar so commiting an offence,until at least 6 months AFTER this Unlawful BT data sharing trial took place.

But did Phorm need to register. BT were running the trial and registered. BT could legitimately try to argue that they were passing out data for marketing purposes, something many clients agree to do on thier applications.

The vendors of say VMs billing system do not have to make a register because VM are storing their clients data on the system, they need to make a DPA registration because they are storing information on thier clients and their employees, and wow there are a lot of there and theirs in that sentence.

---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ----------

Originally Posted by ~$ su

I see another kind of nonsense here.

Phorm aren't doing anything that isn't already done by other companies and hasn't been done for many years.

But most of those companies are not monopolistic suppliers. VM has a monopoly on cable broadband which to many people is the only reliable high speed broadband (comments about performance to another thread please). They live too far from a BT exchange to move to ADSL.

Originally Posted by ~$ su

You try being an ISP and not having certain information about your customers on your servers and databases when all their traffic is going through you.

But now the transparent proxys have been switched off what are they storing and even then that was pull data from popular sites that meant the proxy responded, the proxy did not maintain your data, it responded to it and dropped it.

Originally Posted by ~$ su

If you don't like what Phorm and VM are doing, complain, opt-out, or use a proxy.

It's that simple.

A proxy will not help your data will be analysed on the way through VMs pipes (and then apparently not stored if you are opted out) on the way to this proxy.
Opt out is not true opt out someone still listens to that phone call or opens your mail, they just don't write anything down (supposedly).

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------

Originally Posted by none

Last from the reg - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...hares_plummet/

Which confirms that the current system design does not wall the data.