Brexit (Old)

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

If you mean ideological then use the word ideological.

They are still negotiating according to the EU rules, which has nothing to do with ideology or theology. Theoretically they could change the rules, but with 27 countries standing behind those rules they have no reason to change them for a country that wishes to leave the union under which those rules apply.

You read like an apologist for the EU. Get this: by democratic Referendum, the UK voted to leave the EU (and they consider that a heresy (metaphorically so).

Macron said "'Those who explain that we can easily live without Europe, that everything is going to be alright, and that it's going to bring a lot of money home, are liars".

In anyone's language, that is a threat to the UK, slamming the door on reasonable negotiations. We can get into stupid argument about who lied the most from both sides but the Referendum result rejected the fears posed by the guvmin's circular.

You, and others, are dodging the sovereignty question by hiding behind the EU's right to be difficult instead of criticising it. Shameful.


---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

1. Yes, her objectives are to save the Conservative Party and to try and get a deal better than was clear when she set her red lines.
2&3. I know it's Sunday but don't think religion is involved although I'm open to correction. The EU's objective is to make sure that members are to incentivise membership, ie a country is better off being a member of the EU than not being a member.

Have you heard of the term Metaphor?

On your point about the EU's objective I don't think that what you have said is true (UNION is the objective). But I understand what you are saying. However, if I take you at your word, they don't want us to leave and then do better than we are doing now - whether or not that is by way agreement.

But then we have to define "better". It seems to me that this comes down to their understanding of cherry picking.

We really must break free from their shackles and their mission that will subjugate us under their jurisdiction.

If you (Remainers on this thread) can't agree with that, then you are not good Brits.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Have you heard of the term Metaphor?

On your point about the EU's objective I don't think that what you have said is true (UNION is the objective). But I understand what you are saying. However, if I take you at your word, they don't want us to leave and then do better than we are doing now - whether or not that is by way agreement.

But then we have to define "better". It seems to me that this comes down to their understanding of cherry picking.

We really must break free from their shackles and their mission that will subjugate us under their jurisdiction.

If you (Remainers on this thread) can't agree with that, then you are not good Brits.

Brexit is confusing enough without introducing metaphors!
Some countries in the EU may want union but most don't so I don't think that's on the agenda. The UK would never go along with this if it remained in the EU so that's nothing I've ever worried about.
Regarding who is a true Brit or not; I suggest a re-reading of post #1 in this thread.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Some countries in the EU may want union but most don't so I don't think that's on the agenda.

My god, your ignorance is truly breathtaking.

Ever closer union is the most fundamental base reason of the EU’s existence. Full federalism of a united stated of Europe is and always has been the end game. If you sign up to be in the EU, you sign up to this.

https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7230

It doesn’t matter if “most don’t” that is the target.

The UK would never go along with this if it remained in the EU so that's nothing I've ever worried about.

maybe, just maybe, that’s why we voted out???

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

My god, your ignorance is truly breathtaking.

Ever closer union is the most fundamental base reason of the EU’s existence. Full federalism of a united stated of Europe is and always has been the end game. If you sign up to be in the EU, you sign up to this.

https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7230

It doesn’t matter if “most don’t” that is the target.

maybe, just maybe, that’s why we voted out???

I've said it's not on the agenda which is correct. Ever closer union” isn’t specifically a call for political union. Hopefully you actually voted out for a valid reason and not your misunderstanding of this situation.
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...-closer-union/

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I've said it's not on the agenda which is correct. Ever closer union” isn’t specifically a call for political union. Hopefully you actually voted out for a valid reason and not your misunderstanding of this situation.
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...-closer-union/

You have selected a particular "reality check" to support a narrow analysis of the meaning of two words.

The true march towards political union is expressed in the recent words of Juncker, who wants certain important devolved powers to be centralised in Brussels. The European Parliament wants political union (see Verhofstad for details). I have no idea whether or not creeping transfer of powers will reach a tipping point; but it's certainly the political goal of those running the EU.

Do you believe that Remainers are in favour of the transfer of sovereignty to Brussels? And indeed, are you?



---------- Post added at 07:11 ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Brexit is confusing enough without introducing metaphors!
Some countries in the EU may want union but most don't so I don't think that's on the agenda. The UK would never go along with this if it remained in the EU so that's nothing I've ever worried about.
Regarding who is a true Brit or not; I suggest a re-reading of post #1 in this thread.

"Good Brit" (which is what I said) does not equate to "true Brit".

That said, you're prolly right. But they (EU) have succeeded so far with a whole load of directives, including the WTD which they fiddled through by making it a H&S directive only requiring a qualified majority. You'll recall that the WTD was strongly promoted by France who were worried about labour force advantage, particularly in the UK, as compared with their restrictive practices. The EU is full of this stuff, the CAP which favours France; the Euro which favours Germany. How on earth you can have a long term single currency without a single common fiscal policy will unpick itself in due course when the Euro implodes or suffers a crisis more serious than Greece.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You read like an apologist for the EU. Get this: by democratic Referendum, the UK voted to leave the EU (and they consider that a heresy (metaphorically so).

Macron said "'Those who explain that we can easily live without Europe, that everything is going to be alright, and that it's going to bring a lot of money home, are liars".

In anyone's language, that is a threat to the UK, slamming the door on reasonable negotiations. We can get into stupid argument about who lied the most from both sides but the Referendum result rejected the fears posed by the guvmin's circular.

You, and others, are dodging the sovereignty question by hiding behind the EU's right to be difficult instead of criticising it. Shameful.


---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------



Have you heard of the term Metaphor?

On your point about the EU's objective I don't think that what you have said is true (UNION is the objective). But I understand what you are saying. However, if I take you at your word, they don't want us to leave and then do better than we are doing now - whether or not that is by way agreement.

But then we have to define "better". It seems to me that this comes down to their understanding of cherry picking.

We really must break free from their shackles and their mission that will subjugate us under their jurisdiction.

If you (Remainers on this thread) can't agree with that, then you are not good Brits.

Whilst you are making spurious claims about the EU behemoth being able to change to suit us?

Well too bad. We will be worse off outside the EU, but this is what the majority chose. The fact those who still support leaving are trying to attribute all sorts of motives to the EU, rather than face that fact the UK government control so much we blame the EU for.

Own the change, take responsibility for that choice and stop blaming the EU for our own governments failings.

As for the last comment, I refer you to the first post rules of this discussion.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Angua

Whilst you are making spurious claims about the EU behemoth being able to change to suit us?

Well too bad. We will be worse off outside the EU, but this is what the majority chose. The fact those who still support leaving are trying to attribute all sorts of motives to the EU, rather than face that fact the UK government control so much we blame the EU for.

Own the change and take responsibility for that choice.

As for the last comment, I refer you to the first post rules of this discussion.

Without Chequers, we will suffer some possible temporary disruption (which will be worse if the Government hasn't properly prepared for WTO) but in the medium to long term, we will be better off.

Given the way the EU is going, we will be better out than in.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Without Chequers, we will suffer some possible temporary disruption (which will be worse if the Government hasn't properly prepared for WTO) but in the medium to long term, we will be better off.

Given the way the EU is going, we will be better out than in.

I will believe that when I see it.

Thus far, with the government negotiators I am not at all hopeful.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Angua

I will believe that when I see it.

Thus far, with the government negotiators I am not at all hopeful.

The Government is certainly giving the impression that it is not prepared for WTO.

However, as we have been concentrating on and hearing about nothing but Chequers, it is difficult to judge just how prepared they are.

BREAKING: Shadow Labour Chancellor, John McDonnell tells BBC Radio 4 today that a Second Referendum backed by Labour, will be about the terms of a deal, there will be no option to Remain in the EU, we respect the 2016 Referendum result to leave EU.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I've said it's not on the agenda which is correct. Ever closer union” isn’t specifically a call for political union. Hopefully you actually voted out for a valid reason and not your misunderstanding of this situation.
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...-closer-union/

I didn't vote "out"

[Sephiroth]

I voted out for the sound reason of retaing sovereignty and avoiding German hegemony.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

maybe, just maybe, that’s why we voted out???

Originally Posted by Pierre

I didn't vote "out"

Confusing phrasing if you didn't vote out. If you meant that the country voted out, why not state that?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

If you (Remainers on this thread) can't agree with that, then you are not good Brits.

You have totally lost it. You are not the Brexit Police so reign in the accusations.

We all have views on what is the best future for us and our children and you are certainly not the person to rule that these views are invalid.

You are entitled to your opinion but it does not make you right.

---------- Post added at 12:03 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Without Chequers, we will suffer some possible temporary disruption (which will be worse if the Government hasn't properly prepared for WTO) but in the medium to long term, we will be better off.

Given the way the EU is going, we will be better out than in.

Care to share the Plan that details this economic model? Seems you are the only one that has a copy

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Confusing phrasing if you didn't vote out. If you meant that the country voted out, why not state that?

Not confusing in the slightest.

"we" the people, as opposed to "I" me.

Anyway, it's beside the point.

to answer you point

I've said it's not on the agenda which is correct. Ever closer union” isn’t specifically a call for political union. Hopefully you actually voted out for a valid reason and not your misunderstanding of this situation.
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...-closer-union/

here is a time line of the EU, only goes up to 2009, but from 1973 when we joined up until now, it's only gone one way from a trading block to a political entity and it will ony continue to go one way.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ean-Union.html